HHH vs HBK

[Guest Dangerous A]

I am looking at the HHH vs HBK matchup at Summerslam and saying, as a smark, it's got me intrigued. Not all my intrigue is good, but I'm still intrigued. Let's look at some of the points of intrigue for me.

 

 

How is HBK gonna work this thing?

 

We all know his back is dust. It's never gonna be the same. From reports, he can't even take basic bumps. I think HHH and HBK are gonna have to work their smartest matches to date. One thing that both men have as strengths are there timing of when to do things. We'll see if they can produce. Both men can run through the match and plan all the spots they want, but if the timing is not there, this thing is gonna be a train wreck. I think they need to concentrate on what HBK can do and accentuate them. Can he still do the flying forearm? A moonsault? Dare I say, the flying elbow? What is HBK's capacity for the high impact? In a dream scenario, it would rock bells if he could do all of those things. But if they don't have the timing of when to do it to tell a compelling story, then you kill the crowd before Rock vs Brock. (assuming they go on second to last) The compelling story part brings me to my next point.

 

What kind of match story are they gonna tell?

 

Many of you may have noticed that HHH has slimmed down since the injury in June. Is HHH gonna have to play bump machine for the limited Michaels? I'm not sure if the crowd or audience at home is gonna buy a smaller guy like Michaels kicking and beating the shit out of HHH. It comes off kind of weird. Is HBK gonna take a real looking beating a la Vader/Inoki from 96 or Vader/Flair from Starrcade 93. Shawn isn't one to take stiff shots to the face or head, so if they go with a match story of HHH trying to cripple HBK, what is HHH going to do. He can't attack the back too much for fear of hurting him. HBK is also concussion prone, so he might have to watch things like chair shots or punches to the head. Basically, are they gonna do the little man gets the shit kicked out of him all night and comes back(he doesn't necessarily have to win though) or do we have HBK kick the shit out of HHH and hope he bumps convincingly for him?

 

All in all, I am going to attempt to not judge this just yet and wait to see what they are gonna do. Other things to consider are that usually Kliq members try to make each other look good so hopefully they don't stink up the joint thinking their names are good enough to carry the match. Another thing is both men are very good at telling stories in the ring. But one man hasn't done it in four years and the other hasn't done a good job of doing it since last May. Can they tell a good story again? That is DA's ultimate question.

 

What are your thoughts in regards to this match?

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Shawns storytelling abilities are unproven, as he mainly told them by bumping his ass off rather than working a smart match... I doubt anything has changed. Meanwhile, all of HHH's 'great' matches were either hhh-by-the-numbers or involved him beating Foley into the ground. Either way, it required bumping far more intensive than the shitty pedigree HBK took a few weeks back.

 

So beyond that, there is the 'will the fans accept the slower-paced story-telling both men will offer?' I mean, the majority of fans have been accustomed to the workrate fests that have been the Wwf over the past few years, how would they react to the glorified-brawl that will be HBK/HHH? Some may point to Rock/Hogan at WM as the fans accepting something lesser than what they are used to, but don't make me point out the 3 things that were in the WM match that won't be in the Summerslam match.

 

Not to mention the Ring Rust on HBK. How will his back hold up? Can he even run the ropes?

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Basically i think it will just be a fight. I don't reckon they will spend much time in the ring. we will probably see X-Pac return though, if he hasn't been released by then.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Also, the story going into the match is 'HBK wants to prove he can still do it, HHH wants to kill HBK' This relies HEAVILY on one thing, HBK BEING A SYMPATHETIC BABYFACE.

 

The problem is, HBK IS NOT A SYMPATHETIC CHARACTER.

 

The fans' connection with Shawn is limited. Assuming that over 80% of the fanbase came in during 98/99/00 period, they wouldn't really *know* Shawn Michaels. So why would they *care*. Besides, they haven't built the match up properly enough to really enforce the 'Let's see if this Cowboy has one shot left to hit the target' with the crowd. What they really 'should have' done was have a Doctor talk about the dynamics of HBKs back injury, show footage of his many back bumps, have an interview at his home with his family where he talks about his 'legendary' career and at the end of the interview have his son say 'no daddy no, don't go' with his wife fighting back tears. But they haven't done that, they just had a montage and HHH say 'You can't do it Shawn'... That is hardly enough build for this sort of deal. HBK vs. HHH should be epic, it should rely on story rather than circumstance; it is not something that can be rushed.

 

Back to the whole 'sympathetic babyface', usually the babyface has to take a BEATING, can Shawns Body hold up? I imagine they will substitute blood for bumps, but will that work with todays crowd? It would have to be an INCREDIBLE blade-job to even bring a hint of emotion to the crowd.

[Guest Dangerous A]

Especially the usually hard Long Isand Nassau Coliseum crowd.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I figure 'that crowd' would be more for HHH than HBK.

[Guest NazMistry]

But just how bad is HBK's back?

Granted that Pedigree looked fucked, but is Michaels back to the point where he can't take a Suplex or Back Breaker?

If I was Michaels and I was serious about this being my last match, I would not want to go out in a shitty brawl.

Michaels has to do the business.

I'm sorry to be so harsh, but Michaels has to pull off some of his old offence & bumps otherwise it's going to be a big letdown for the fans.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I figure that HBK has one or two bumps left in him. They will probably be the 'trump cards' in the match. Just when the Crowd starts to become dead he'll pull out a flying elbow or a splash to wake them all up. But I suspect all the bumping in that match will be "HHH hits Shawn with a barbed wire bat" "HBK rams HHH's head into a glass window" etc.

[Guest thebigjig]

Anyone expecting a moment in the match where Shawn gets "hurt", the refs come down to check on him, JR uses his "owen" voice.,.. lots of stalling, only to have HHH end up beating the shit out of him on the stretcher? Just to extend the match time a little?

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

...Now I am....

[Guest Austin3164life]

From what the signs are showing, it will most likely be a train wreck, but don't be suprised to see an entertaining match by the two. Shawn's back has to have healed over four years, and Triple H is showing signs of the 2000 worker we all knew.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Um...I'm sure Trips and Taker could have done a really smart match with lots of high-impact moves, too, but that didn't stop them from throwing bad punches for twenty minutes and then kicking it into over-booking so neither had to actually do anything.

 

Like Shawn said, this will be a "fight" and that don't mean it'll be a good one. This match will suck. SUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!!!!!

[Guest godthedog]

Back to the whole 'sympathetic babyface', usually the babyface has to take a BEATING, can Shawns Body hold up? I imagine they will substitute blood for bumps, but will that work with todays crowd? It would have to be an INCREDIBLE blade-job to even bring a hint of emotion to the crowd.

 

that won't be a problem, shawn can bleed with the best of 'em. i'm pretty sure he'll blade for this match.

 

Um...I'm sure Trips and Taker could have done a really smart match with lots of high-impact moves, too, but that didn't stop them from throwing bad punches for twenty minutes and then kicking it into over-booking so neither had to actually do anything.

 

some big differences:

 

1) trips won't be hurt this time.

 

2) it's 2 clique buddies.

 

3) shawn michaels cares a LOT more about his legacy & having a good match than the undertaker.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

The Wwf has spilled a lot of colour over the past few years and only a select few blade jobs are remembered. Honestly, HBK will have to like drip blood all over the ring to make for a haunting image.

 

1) trips won't be hurt this time.

 

So? A hurt elbow and a fused back are two different hazards to work with (or against). Taker was in MUCH better condition than Shawn will be, hell HOGAN was in better condition.

 

2) it's 2 clique buddies.

 

Yes, and we all know how crappy that 'kliq buddy' pedigree turned out to be. There is a difference between two healthy guys goin out and beatin the shit out of each other and taking it to the limits, and two buddies with one needing to be handled like a baby.

 

3) shawn michaels cares a LOT more about his legacy & having a good match than the undertaker.

 

Shawn said it wouldn't be a wrestling match, right there you know the standard has been dropped WAY below par.

[Guest Quik]

I bet Shawn doesn't even come out in his tights. Jeans and boots; streetfight. Blech

 

It'll be overbooked and shitty, and the high spot will be Shawn doing one flying forearm. Ooh-la-la.

 

BTW, why did he fuck up that pedigree? IS his back so bad that he can't even land on his chest with his arms extended? That's pretty damn fucked.

[Guest The Amazing Rando]

but it Shawn comes out in the tights...with the mirror vest....and the music blaring...

 

welp...MARK OUT!

 

even if the "fight" sucks....

 

I won't remember him for this...i'll remember him for WM14, WM12, WM10, etc etc etc...

[Guest SlowChemical6]

Here's my analysis of the situation:

 

HBK can take 75% of HHH's offense. He can take the Pedigree, the high knee, the "facebuster", the knee drop, and of course...the punches.

 

Can he take a back body drop or a vertical suplex...or even a clothesline? No. Can HHH protect him on a move like the spinebuster so that there would be little or no impact on the back? Probably not.

 

HHH is gonna have to rely on a lot of brawling. Either that, or Shawn is gonna have to figure out some way to bump without landing on his back. Watch HBK vs. Taker from Badd Blood...HBK takes a lot of bumps in which he spins from the impact (of a clothesline or punch or whatever) and lands on his stomach. Maybe he can bump like that.

 

Can HBK do most of his offense? I'd say he can do about 50% of it. I think we're gonna see a very grounded HBK, even moreso than he was in his final match with Austin.

 

I don't think he can do the flying elbow off the top. That involves landing on your tailbone and lower back, which is his problem area.

 

He can do the Sweet Chin Music, we know that much. He can probably do the flying forearm. He could pull off the moonsault bodyblock if HHH were to be ultra-careful in catching him, but I'm not sure that he has the athleticism in him after back surgery and 4 years off to pull the move off.

 

He can do all of the basic stuff -- scoop slams, sleepers, back body drops, hip tosses, arm drags, atomic drops -- and like he did with Austin, he can work the lower anatomy over on the mat and pull out the figure-four leglock.

 

HHH is going to have be real light on his feet and bump his ass off to make HBK look good.

 

Also remember that the rings have much more give to them than they did when HBK was wrestling. He never even got to wrestle in the new rings. A springy mat might help HBK take some basic back bumps. And I'm sure that if they had to, they could give the ring some extra padding and give for SummerSlam.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

You are forgetting 4 years of ring rust.

[Guest 5_moves_of_doom]

What they need to do is work this one of two ways, or mix the two. They can either work the match like the classic Bret/HBK ironman match, with a general slow pace yet still heated, with a few bumps here and there to keep the crowd into it, which would make a decent match, or they can do the Montreal Bret/HBK match [the MATCH, not the whole screwjob] where it's just one INTENSE brawl, packing in that the men really hate eachother, and that was also a decent match.

 

But, as proven by Austin/HBK from WM 14, and to an even more extreme measure Kane/UT from the same show, a story/heat CAN make a match good. I mean, it's fricken' KANE and UNDERTAKER, and the story they told alone made a good-great match.

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

apparently HBK v. Paul Diamond wasn't that great either.. this was in 99. HHH is no Paul Diamond. I figure that the PPV match shall be very painful to watch.

[Guest Dangerous A]

I am going to attempt to keep an open mind about this match. I dig both guys.(I dig just about everyone except Scotty 2 Hotty) I just hope more people here don't work themselves into such a preconceived line of thinking that they don't enjoy the match because they won't allow themselves to. I think some folks on this board won't allow themselves to like HHH or HBK because of whatever and even if the match is entertaining or enjoyable, they will insist that the match sucked because of who the participants were, not what they did.

[Guest Downhome]

Granted that Pedigree looked fucked, but is Michaels back to the point where he can't take a Suplex or Back Breaker?

I don't have much more to say on this, that I haven't in the past. I will say this though...

 

...if HBK isn't to the point where he can take the most basic of moves, then he shouldn't be in the ring, period.

 

Also, if HBK isn't going to be his old flambloyant (sp?) self, then I highly doubt that the fans will as much into him as they could be. They need to NOT mention his "finding religion", he doesn't need to come off as a sad cry baby bitch, and he DOESN'T need to get "laid out" anymore before Summerslam. If they want this to work, they need to present the HBK character of old, if for no other reason than to get the "new fans" who never saw him really before, familier with him now.

 

We've got two weeks to build this up, it's time we get on the ball starting this coming Monday night.

[Guest Downhome]

I was just thinking, and maybe they realize that HBK can't really "go", so perhaps they'll have HHH just lay down for Shawn, you know...

 

...to repay the favor. :D

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Shawn is gonna have to figure out some way to bump without landing on his back. Watch HBK vs. Taker from Badd Blood...HBK takes a lot of bumps in which he spins from the impact (of a clothesline or punch or whatever) and lands on his stomach. Maybe he can bump like that.

You guys also seem to forget something: Ric Flair.

 

 

You can pshaw me and say Shawn doesn't want to get advice from Flair at this stage of his career, but Flair has been working and bumping with a sub-par back for DECADES now. He drops almost on his side but seems to end up properly on his back, although the screams that accompany his bumping are always a bit more frightening than entertaining.

 

Anyway, if you want to talk about how to make a match that works around a back injury, well, Flair's your man.

 

I think the real issue here will be ring rust.

[Guest SlowChemical6]

You are forgetting 4 years of ring rust.

 

No...

 

I'm not sure that he has the athleticism in him after back surgery and 4 years off

[Guest RicFlairGlory]

I was just thinking, and maybe they realize that HBK can't really "go", so perhaps they'll have HHH just lay down for Shawn, you know...

 

...to repay the favor. :D

lol, I'd only mark out if I didnt buy SummerSlam

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

WRESTLING DIGEST: Despite back surgery, you still have one degenerative disc. How will that restrict what you do in the ring?

 

SHAWN MICHAELS: It restricts you from doing a lot, because your back, especially your lower back, does so many things. Each time a vertebra is fused, it limits your range of motion in all directions. Obviously, any impact to the disc causes it to degenerate more. So each bump I take will make it worse. If I were to drop a leg from the top rope, I would probably never get up.

 

WD: Then why risk an actual wrestling comeback if it could mean spending the rest of your life in a wheelchair?

 

SM: I don't think it's as serious as spending my life in a wheelchair. Probably, I'll have to have surgery again. The one disc above my fusion is already pretty bad. I need to get it operated on anyway, so I might as well go back and make one more run to get the most out of it and then get it worked on.

 

WD: What is your actual motivation for a return to the ting?

 

SM: It is definitely not about being back on top again, because I definitely don't want to be. I only want to be a supporting player, because I don't want the demand on my time. The reason for this comeback is simple, and that is security for my family. This is what I do. It's been three years since I was in the ting. Truthfully, I miss the business a little bit. I miss interacting with the people and the boys in the business and all that kind of stuff. Wrestling is the kind of business that once it gets in your blood, it's tough to get it out. I still want to be part of the business, and I still have a little something to offer. I'm not going to be a show-stopper. I'm not going to be your main-event guy or your headline guy. When I went out, I was lucky enough that people wanted more. I'd like to give them that little bit more and put a different ending to my career, because the other one was a little sad. If I have to get surgery and leave the business again, I'm well prepared for it. I think it's inevitable that it's going to happen this time. I can just enjoy myself for what this is and not put so much pressure on myself, not worry about being the best and stealing the show.

 

WD: With your current physical state, who are the guys you think you could work really top matches against?

 

SM: One thing that's going to have to change is people are going to have to do for me what I used to have to do for a lot of my opponents. They're going to have to take up a lot of the slack. I have now become the guy you have to work around.

 

WD: So you're not going to do something like go to the top of a ladder and do a flying body press?

 

SM: No. People need to understand that I'm only going to be playing a supporting role, and that's all I want I don't think I have the ability anymore to be a top guy. I don't think I could physically hang with a lot of them. I guess I'll need to get in the ting before I know if I can hang with a lot of these top guys. Right now, I don't know what I'm capable of doing. I don't have the confidence I once had. In the past, no matter what the question was, I would step up to the challenge. Now, I am a little more realistic, and I don't know what I can do. Let's start off slow and see how far I can go.

[Guest RicFlairGlory]

<<They're going to have to take up a lot of the slack. I have now become the guy you have to work around.>>

 

Cheap shot at someone....

 

 

Well, if you need surgery anyways, give it all you got Shawn, wear tights, not jeans, and do all you can to not kill your back.

 

I can take a 4 foot jump off a porch, hope you still have *that* much in you Shawn

[Guest Human Fly]

...if HBK isn't to the point where he can take the most basic of moves, then he shouldn't be in the ring, period

 

That's what I was going to say if his back is so far gone that he can't land on it, then it's not worth the risk.

 

At WM 14 HBK still took some pretty good bumps I doubt he can pull off a match of that quality.

 

Wasn't there talk of HBK attempting a comeback a little it ago? I remember they had an article about it in a magazine. I believe HBK was sent home before it started though, something along the lines of "unable to appear on tv". If it was that close to happening I'm hoping he's got something left.

 

I'm trying not to get excited for this match. I hope it is good, but am thinking the quality will not be there. Shawn was one of the best workers during his run, I hope he can still pull a little bit of that for this match.

[Guest Razor Roman]

Maybe they can just call the whole thing off for now... get Shawn hurt... put it off until Royal Rumble, or Mania, and have a better build to it.

 

God, the WWE could have slam-dunked this one... and they managed to screw it up... big time.

 

It could have been awesome... like the scenario Foley proposed for the I Quit match with the Rock. (He mentioned it in Foley is Good)