Rolling Germans best of the 90's comp?ROLLING GERM

[Guest HopeSpot]

Have any of you guys bought this 5 tape set? The content looks absolutely incredible so I'm just wondering if anyones ordered this thing and can tell me what the video qaulity is like? And if any of the matches are clipped and if so how badly? As usual any help would be appreciated, and here's a match list for those of you who don't know what I'm talking about:

 

ROLLING GERMANS BEST OF 1990'S

 

VOLUME #1

Jushin "Thunder" Lyger vs Brian Pillman (Superbrawl II)

Mitsuharu Misawa vs Jumbo Tseruta (06/08/1990)

Rey Misterio Jr. vs Psicosis (Bash at the Beach 1996)

Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi (07/29/1993)

Mitsuharu Misawa vs Jun Akiyama (New Year Giant Series 1998)

Michinoku/Shiryu/Funaki/Togo/Teioh vs Yakushigi/TMIV/Naniwa/Delfin/Hamada (10/10/1996)

Bret Hart vs Owen Hart (Wrestlemania X)

Hayabusa vs Masato Tanaka (FMW Story of the F 3rd Stage)

Ultimo Dragon vs Dean Malenko (Starrcade 1996)

Misawa/Kobashi vs Kawada/Taue (06/09/1995)

 

VOLUME #2

Chris Benoit vs 2 Cold Scorpio (Superbrawl III)

Steve Austin vs Dude Love (Over The Edge 1998)

Steve Williams vs Kenta Kobashi (09/03/1994)

Jushin "Thunder" Lyger vs Shinjiro Ohtani (03/17/1996)

Eddie Guerrero/Art Barr vs Octagon/Hijo Del Santo (AAA/IWC: When Worlds Collide 1994)

TAKA Michinoku vs Minoru Tanaka (11/23/1999)

Ryuji Yamakawa vs. Tomoaki Honma (06/20/99)

Great Sasuke/ Tiger Mask IV/ Shiryu vs. Super Delphin/Gran Naniwa/ TAKA Michinoku (03/16/96)

Misawa/Kobashi vs Williams/Ace (03/04/1995)

Shinjiro Ohtani vs El Samurai (01/21/1996 UWA Title)

Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi (01/20/1997)

 

VOLUME #3

Jushin "Thunder" Lyger vs Naoki Sano (01/30/1990)

Vader vs Antonio Inoki (01/04/1996 Tokyo Dome Show)

Jushin "Thunder" Lyger vs Black Tiger (BOSJ Finals 1996)

Shawn Michaels vs Razor Ramon (Wrestlemania X)

Michinoku/Togo/Teioh vs Sasuke/Hamada/Yakushigi (Barely Legal 1997)

El Samurai vs Koji Kanemoto (BOSJ Finals 1997)

Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue (04/15/1995)

Steiners vs Hiroshi Hase/Kensuke Sasaki (03/31/1990)

Misawa/Akiyama vs Kawada/Taue (RWTL Finals 1996)

Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (06/03/1994)

 

VOLUME #4

Jushin "Thunder" Lyger vs El Samurai (BOSJ Finals 1992)

Mutoh/Chono vs. Hase/Sasaki (11/1/90)

Rey Misterio Jr. vs Eddie Guerrero (Halloween Havoc 1997)

Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada (06/08/1998)

Wild Pegasus vs Shinjiro Ohtani (04/20/1996)

Michinoku/Funaki/Teioh/Togo/Shiryu vs TMIV/Yakushigi/Delphin/Naniwa/Hamada (10/10/1996)

Jushin "Thunder" Lyger vs The Great Sasuke (Super J Cup 1994 Semi Finals)

Bret Hart vs Steve Austin (Wrestlemania XIII)

Misawa/Kobashi vs Kawada/Taue (12/03/1993)

Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi (10/21/1997)

 

VOLUME #5

Koji Kanemoto vs Dr. Wagner Jr. (BOSJ 1998 Finals)

Keiji Mutoh vs Shinya Hashimoto (G-1 Climax 1995 Finals)

Jushin "Thunder" Lyger vs Shinjiro Ohtani (02/09/1997)

Bret Hart vs Davey Boy Smith (Summerslam 1992)

Benoit/Malenko vs Raven/Saturn (Spring Stampede 1999)

The Great Sasuke/Black Tiger vs Wild Pegasus/Shinjiro Ohtani (Junior Tag League Finals 1994)

Ultimo Dragon vs Shinjiro Ohtani (J Crown Semi Finals)

Bret Hart vs Chris Benoit (Owen Hart Tribute Match, UNINTERRUPTED, Nitro 1999)

Wild Pegasus vs The Great Sasuke (Super J Cup 1994 Finals)

Masahiro Chono vs Keiji Mutoh (G-1 Climax Finals 1991)

[Guest redbaron51]

OMG!!!!!1!1

 

That freakin 0wnz

 

how much

[Guest Jubuki]

I had a fricking tome written about this, but the damned server didn't remember I had logged in - I'll keep it short by commenting on what I'd leave off and mention what might be clipped.

 

>>Rey Misterio Jr. vs Psicosis (Bash at the Beach 1996)

 

Shouldn't be here - not when their ECW, J-Cup, and Lucha matches are all better.  A match isn't one of the best of the 90's if it's not even top 3-5 for the *feud*.

 

>>Mitsuharu Misawa vs Jun Akiyama (New Year Giant Series 1998)

 

Their best matches were as a team, not versus one another.  No place here among some of the other AJPW.

 

VOLUME #2

>>Chris Benoit vs 2 Cold Scorpio (Superbrawl III)

 

I liked this, but I doubt I'd include it.  The main event of the show was better, and there've been a lot of better WCW Jrs. matches.

 

>>Steve Williams vs Kenta Kobashi (09/03/1994)

 

Eh.  Doc had better matches with Misawa & Kawada that year.

 

>>Jushin "Thunder" Lyger vs Shinjiro Ohtani (03/17/1996)

 

Fantastic match.  I think it's only about 17-19 minutes of 23, but very much worth seeing.

 

>>Eddie Guerrero/Art Barr vs Octagon/Hijo Del Santo (AAA/IWC: When Worlds Collide 1994)

 

Good selection - the lack of Lucha outside of this keeps this from being much of a Bo90's, but good selection.

 

>>TAKA Michinoku vs Minoru Tanaka (11/23/1999)

 

Ikeda/Ishikawa from 5/98 is the definitive BattlARTS match and blows this out of the water.

 

>>Ryuji Yamakawa vs. Tomoaki Honma (06/20/99)

 

Hardly even the best deathmatch to find, let alone one of the decade's best.  If you want good deathmatches, check the Kansai/Ozaki from 3/95 JWP.

 

>>Misawa/Kobashi vs Williams/Ace (03/04/1995)

 

Great match, but there are better tags.  The 10/90 or 4/91 Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi vs. Jumbo/Taue/Fuchi matches would make it long before this.

 

>>Shinjiro Ohtani vs El Samurai (01/21/1996 UWA Title)

 

Only 9:30 shown, out of 22 and change.  That's what keeps this from being something I would call a surefire Bo90's, but I'm big on full matches telling the whole story.

 

VOLUME #3

>>Jushin "Thunder" Lyger vs Naoki Sano (01/30/1990)

 

There's a 14-min. TV version out there, and I also think there's a more full version (total time was 20, I think).  Great match either way.  Whole feud really needs to be seen to understand this, though.

 

>>Vader vs Antonio Inoki (01/04/1996 Tokyo Dome Show)

 

Full on the Dome show comm.

 

>>Jushin "Thunder" Lyger vs Black Tiger (BOSJ Finals 1996)

 

Made TV, there might be a comm, I'm not sure, but it's probably full or mostly full.

 

>>Shawn Michaels vs Razor Ramon (Wrestlemania X)

 

The Summerslam 95 match is better, hands down.

 

>>Michinoku/Togo/Teioh vs Sasuke/Hamada/Yakushigi (Barely Legal 1997)

 

The other MPro smokes this, and it's hardly representative of ECW's best.  A good copy of the Hostile City Showdown Eddy vs. Dean would make a good replacement for this.

 

>>El Samurai vs Koji Kanemoto (BOSJ Finals 1997)

 

A *** match at best.  Doesn't belong here unless you like to mark out for stiffness and dangerous spots with no real connection from moment to moment.

 

VOLUME #4

>>Wild Pegasus vs Shinjiro Ohtani (04/20/1996)

 

Date is 3/20.  About 10 minutes of 19 made TV; right there with the Sammy/Ohtani and Jumbo/Kobashi from 5/91 for Best Clip Ever.

 

>>Michinoku/Funaki/Teioh/Togo/Shiryu vs TMIV/Yakushigi/Delphin/Naniwa/Hamada (10/10/1996)

 

Again?

 

>>Jushin "Thunder" Lyger vs The Great Sasuke (Super J Cup 1994 Semi Finals)

 

I doubt I'd include it, when it isn't top 5 for either man or the best match of the night.

 

>>Bret Hart vs Steve Austin (Wrestlemania XIII)

 

The Survivor Series match is better.

 

VOLUME #5

>>Koji Kanemoto vs Dr. Wagner Jr. (BOSJ 1998 Finals)

 

Far, far better than the 97 finals, but I don't know if I'd leave it here.  Still, quite an accomplishment for a Koji singles match to not bore me stiff.  Mostly full (25 or 26 out of something like 28 min.) on my copy, don't think there's one that's complete.  Doesn't need to be.

 

>>Keiji Mutoh vs Shinya Hashimoto (G-1 Climax 1995 Finals)

 

Made full on TV.  Good choice.

 

>>Jushin "Thunder" Lyger vs Shinjiro Ohtani (02/09/1997)

 

Two versions of this - a 12-minute TV version, and the mostly full comm (24 or 25 out of 27).  To me, a rehash of their 3/96 match, but that's not a bad thing.

 

>>Bret Hart vs Davey Boy Smith (Summerslam 1992)

 

Doesn't belong on a Best Of.  Misawa/Kawada from the same era smokes it, Rude/Steamboat from the same era is better, Sting/Vader from a little later is better.

 

>>Benoit/Malenko vs Raven/Saturn (Spring Stampede 1999)

 

4 Net darlings do not a great match make - this was the tip of the 'great match' iceberg for these guys and Rey/Kidman -- NOT the iceberg itself.  WCW pulled the plug before we got the good stuff.

 

>>Bret Hart vs Chris Benoit (Owen Hart Tribute Match, UNINTERRUPTED, Nitro 1999)

 

See above.  Too many other good matches/feuds out there to include this.  HBK/Foley, Hart/Austin I, Sting/Vader, any number of shootstyle, Lucha, or Joshi matches...anything but this.

[Guest NineSpiral]

sure there are a couple of different matches that i might put in place of a couple of the matches here as well, but i have YET to see a better best of 90's compilation. that's why i'm buying it! the only match that's screaming for inclusion here (at least to me) is the really great rematch later in 1990 between Misawa and Jumbo.

 

Jason

[Guest Brian]

Mailman comped the DVDVR All Japan and Indy matches of the 90's, I've done WWF, ECW, and I'm working on lucha. Someone's probably done NJPW. Just post at the DVDVR board looking for them since Mailman doesn't exist anymore.

[Guest HellSpawn]

Jubuki.

I know, everybody have opinions, but been honest, your post make me believe all that crap about puro-heads.

You have a great list of matches, all genres, Lucha, Puro, North america, and you still bitch about the matches???

 

And baout the tapes, well, I send an email to Justin a few weeks ago, and He didnt reply, so, I dont know if he still wants to sell the tapes.

 

btw, I think they are 5 tapes for $60. Check Justin's site.

[Guest Jubuki]

Sorry that I can't be JUST LIKE YOU, SPAWNY!  You can watch the matches, understand what's going on in them, and see why I made the points I made, or you can join the other people round here who like railing against coherent thought, hidden behind the guise of "anti-elitism", on the growing pile of opinions that are useless to me.  Then again...considering that you failed to notice I:

 

1) pointed out the tapes DO NOT contain any Joshi, any UWFi/RINGS shootstyle, any European work, and next to no Lucha (with the 1 match included being available just about anywhere, which is true about a lot of this stuff), meaning your point about 'all genres' is horsepuck, and

 

2) answered the initial question of the post by filling in some of the blanks regarding clipping,

 

I'd say I already know about how much your scathing criticism affects my attitude, and how much it reinforces my behavior.

[Guest Pegasus Kid]

An overabundance of orders for the set have forced me to postpone any further sales until I can get caught up.  It'll be a few weeks at the very earliest (I've still got school and work to deal wtih) before the set is readily available again.

 

I'll drop some very quick thoughts on a few of the matches Chris brought up.

 

>>Rey Misterio Jr. vs Psicosis (Bash at the Beach 1996)

Shouldn't be here - not when their ECW, J-Cup, and Lucha matches are all better.  A match isn't one of the best of the 90's if it's not even top 3-5 for the *feud*.

 

I thought this was the best of their series.  The J Cup match came off like one big exhibition rather than a match per se.  I've never been an overly big fan of their ECW match, or the big 2/3 falls match vs Juvy that everyone raves about.

 

>>Mitsuharu Misawa vs Jun Akiyama (New Year Giant Series 1998)

Their best matches were as a team, not versus one another.  No place here among some of the other AJPW.

 

I wanted to include at least one match with Misawa vs (fill in one of top five here)

 

VOLUME #2

>>Chris Benoit vs 2 Cold Scorpio (Superbrawl III)

I liked this, but I doubt I'd include it.  The main event of the show was better, and there've been a lot of better WCW Jrs. matches.

 

This is simply a personal preference as it was my very first taste of junior wrestling.

 

>>Steve Williams vs Kenta Kobashi (09/03/1994)

Eh.  Doc had better matches with Misawa & Kawada that year.

 

I prefer this match over the CC Finals.  I can't seem to grasp the CC finals the way some folks (mainly JDW) seemed to.  Just not exciting for me.  The TC change just bugs the hell out of me.  I always have this bitter taste knowing that Doc was just a transition champion and that Kawada should have won the belts at 6/94.

 

>>Eddie Guerrero/Art Barr vs Octagon/Hijo Del Santo (AAA/IWC: When Worlds Collide 1994)

Good selection - the lack of Lucha outside of this keeps this from being much of a Bo90's, but good selection.

 

Most folks know I'm not overly big on Lucha to begin with, but I had this PPV in EX VQ so I put this tag match on the set.

 

>>Ryuji Yamakawa vs. Tomoaki Honma (06/20/99)

Hardly even the best deathmatch to find, let alone one of the decade's best.  If you want good deathmatches, check the Kansai/Ozaki from 3/95 JWP.

 

I actually took this match off the final version of the set and replaced it with the famous Sting/Luger vs Steiners match.

 

VOLUME #3

>>Jushin "Thunder" Lyger vs Naoki Sano (01/30/1990)

There's a 14-min. TV version out there, and I also think there's a more full version (total time was 20, I think).  Great match either way.  Whole feud really needs to be seen to understand this, though.

 

I've got the full version from Barnett.  I recommend people pick up the "Best of Early Lyger" from Bob if they want a good backstory.

 

>>Vader vs Antonio Inoki (01/04/1996 Tokyo Dome Show)

Full on the Dome show comm.

 

That would be what I have.  

 

>>Jushin "Thunder" Lyger vs Black Tiger (BOSJ Finals 1996)

Made TV, there might be a comm, I'm not sure, but it's probably full or mostly full.

 

I've got the full version off the BOSJ 1996 comm release.

 

>>Michinoku/Togo/Teioh vs Sasuke/Hamada/Yakushigi (Barely Legal 1997)

The other MPro smokes this, and it's hardly representative of ECW's best.  A good copy of the Hostile City Showdown Eddy vs. Dean would make a good replacement for this.

 

The only matches I've liked head and shoulders over this was the 3/96 tag and the ten man from "These Days."

 

>>El Samurai vs Koji Kanemoto (BOSJ Finals 1997)

A *** match at best.  Doesn't belong here unless you like to mark out for stiffness and dangerous spots with no real connection from moment to moment.

 

I've always been a huge fan of this match.  I actually emailed Randazzo with a long explanation of why I think it's so great.  I'll post it sometime or the other.

 

VOLUME #4

>>Jushin "Thunder" Lyger vs The Great Sasuke (Super J Cup 1994 Semi Finals)

I doubt I'd include it, when it isn't top 5 for either man or the best match of the night.

 

I've always felt this was the best of their series of matches with their match from 4/97 being second.  I should note I haven't seen the rematch from later in 1994 though.

 

VOLUME #5

>>Koji Kanemoto vs Dr. Wagner Jr. (BOSJ 1998 Finals)

Far, far better than the 97 finals, but I don't know if I'd leave it here.  Still, quite an accomplishment for a Koji singles match to not bore me stiff.  Mostly full (25 or 26 out of something like 28 min.) on my copy, don't think there's one that's complete.  Doesn't need to be.

 

There is no complete version.  I've got whatever the longest version is from Lynch.

 

>>Jushin "Thunder" Lyger vs Shinjiro Ohtani (02/09/1997)

Two versions of this - a 12-minute TV version, and the mostly full comm (24 or 25 out of 27).  To me, a rehash of their 3/96 match, but that's not a bad thing.

 

I've got the full version from Jenrette.

 

>>Bret Hart vs Davey Boy Smith (Summerslam 1992)

Doesn't belong on a Best Of.  Misawa/Kawada from the same era smokes it, Rude/Steamboat from the same era is better, Sting/Vader from a little later is better.

 

I'll give you the 10/92 Misawa vs Kawada was better but 6/3/94 was already on the tape and I didn't want to double up.  I'm not overly big on the Rude vs Steamboat IMM (I assume that's what you're referring to).  Too many falls in a 30 minute match.  I thought this was the best WWF match for that year.  

 

>>Bret Hart vs Chris Benoit (Owen Hart Tribute Match, UNINTERRUPTED, Nitro 1999)

See above.  Too many other good matches/feuds out there to include this.  HBK/Foley, Hart/Austin I, Sting/Vader, any number of shootstyle, Lucha, or Joshi matches...anything but this.

 

I don't have HKB vs Foley on tape.  I could have included Survivor Series 1996 but thought Wrestlemania XIII had more impact so that went on.  I've actually got the Vader vs Sting strap match as a revision on tape #1.

 

So... late... have... work... tomorrow.

[Guest HopeSpot]

Thanks for helping me out guys and when that comps avalible again I'm all over it.

 

And I'm getting more than a little tired of everybody who says they don't like something being labelled a jaded cynical asshole, thanks for the post Jubuki.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

">>Benoit/Malenko vs Raven/Saturn (Spring Stampede 1999)

 

4 Net darlings do not a great match make - this was the tip of the 'great match' iceberg for these guys and Rey/Kidman -- NOT the iceberg itself.  WCW pulled the plug before we got the good stuff."

 

They did cut it off way too soon by just saying "We don't know how to book so let's throw all 3 teams in one match at Slamboree."  But the Spring Stampede 99 tag match is probably the last chance we will ever see in the US (for a while) of a good old Southern Tag Team Match.

 

Benoit/Malenko played the Midnight Express with AA as Cornette, Benoit as Eaton, and Malenko as a weaker version of Stan Lane.  Raven/Saturn assume the role of the Bizarro Fantastics with Raven being Tommy Rogers and Saturn being Bobby Fulton.  

 

The match itself is full of the great things that todays "WWF" is missing (besides, you know, real wrestling).  Great crowd heat (for WCW) with a full understanding of the Face/Heel division being known.  Also, little things such as double team moves (that were innovative, cool, and made sense in the context of the match), and just the general tag team basics (actually working a real tag match.)

 

Some will say that the last great tag match in the US was at Starrcade 92 but the 1999 Spring Stampede match fill that void.  

 

The Spring Stampede match is my pick for the last real tag team match on US Soil.  It is certainly better than the utter crap that is the 5/21/01 HHH/Austin v Benoit/Jericho "acclaimed" tag match.

 

Tim

[Guest MrDanger]

The Spring Stampede match is my pick for the last real tag team match on US Soil.  It is certainly better than the utter crap that is the 5/21/01 HHH/Austin v Benoit/Jericho "acclaimed" tag match.

 

Tim

So it's utter crap now is it? Funny how the match suddenly gets worse and worse when you want more attention.

[Guest Jubuki]

I don't remember it being utter crap...but it's no way, no how a match of the year in ANY of the last 30 or so years of wrestling.  It may not even be a top 40 for '01.  The Spring Stampede match, on the other hand, is at least within shouting distance of the best stuff from '99.  Now, if you'd like to refute that in ways that don't involve trolling, you go right ahead.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"So it's utter crap now is it? Funny how the match suddenly gets worse and worse when you want more attention."

 

Yes, the match is utter crap compared to the really outstanding tag matches of the day.  Back when I started getting older US tapes and ventured into the Japanese Wrestling world, a little thing called Tag Team matches fascinated me.  So much so that I tracked down every "acclaimed" tag match just to see the many ways they can be worked, etc.  

 

It was almost like an unofficial study, with no real experiment and no data being written down but everything being placed inside my head and ready to be sorted and remembered in the variety of matches I would go on to see.  At *first*, I thought the only way a *good* tag match could be worked is the southern style tag match that was almost written by the Midnight Express.  

 

Then I got sucked into the world that is the AJPW tag, simply the best tag team environment that I have ever seen........and I am getting into the 1992 Joshi tag scene so that should even go a step further.  But AJPW opened me up to see how teams that tagged regularly, yet used a different formula, were not only great matches, but also superior in most cases.  EVERY tag match (which includes 6 and 8 mans) from the Jumbo and Co v Misawa and Co feud that I saw had at least something that opened my eyes to an aspect of Tag Team Wrestling I had never seen before.  Of course most of those matches just blew me away and showed me, with storylines and the "real" tag team (meaning not just throwing two guys together or for a six man putting a tag team with a singles wrestler) that not only could great wrestling occur, but also a deeper psychology could take hold.

 

The first really blow away Japan tag match I saw was the 10/16/94 final between Otani/Pegasus v Black Tiger/Sasuke.  Fantastic sprint, nice moves, great near falls.......yet beyond that, it had little substance to it.  It was a joy to watch and still is a good tag team match, but not up there with the great ones that I have seen.  That match had 4 wrestlers, neither of which teamed much outside of the Tag League, put on a great match yet after the match, it meant very little.

 

When I built my way through the Midnight Express' fantastic matches with the Fantastics, RnR, Southern Boys, etc, and then through the AJPW stuff that was levels beyond the MX stuff (which I thought and still will debate are the best US stuff ever in Tag Team ranks and are right there with the AJPW tags).

 

With that in mind, my standards for a tag team match are very high.  A tag team match is so simple to put together with the proper thinking and execution.  It is so much easier to produce a tag team match that is *good* compared to a *good* singles match because there are 4 guys in the ring (or more), so flaws can be covered up.  Little stories can take place in tags easier.  That is not to say they can't be done in singles matches because they can, Misawa v Kawada 6/3/94 is the example of that.

 

5/21/01 was at best, a *good* RAW TV match if you like the WWF style of wrestling.  To me, someone who respects tag team wrestling with a passion, the match lacked in so many different area's that I can not call it average in good conscience.

 

Tim

[Guest Tim Cooke]

BTW, I love to talk about the 5/01 match so ask away or debate away because that match being pimped as "*****" or "MOTYC" or just "Great" makes me think that we will never see a great tag team match again in the US if the 5/01 match is "GREAT"

 

Tim

[Guest CB2M]

........and I am getting into the 1992 Joshi tag scene so that should even go a step further.  

If you haven't seen Toyota & Yamada vs. Kansai & Ozaki 11/26/92 yet, be prepared to be blown away.  The first time I saw it, I didn't think it was the best tag team match ever.  I thought the 12/6/96 and 6/9/95 AJPW matches were better.  But after rewatching it over and over again, it just grew on me and is the best match I've ever seen.

[Guest MrDanger]

I'm not for one second going to claim it's a ***** classic or even a MOTY for that matter. However I still think it's a great match and without question the best tag match in North America last year.

 

The most immediate reason why everyone is raving about the match is because it shattered the illusion of the glass ceiling that several "wrestling journalists" had been spouting off about for months. WWF for the previous two months had been dreadful with recycled matches on top; Jericho pinning Austin gave people hope for the product for the first time in months.

 

Personally I have other reasons why I like it so much. I thought it summed up what the WWF has evolved into over the last few years. On one hand you have the set babyface and heel roles yet at times the face team's actions are remincist of a heel (Jericho pulling the ref out immediately springs to mind). If that spot occurred in the late 80's or early 90's then you who could say it goes against everything tag wrestling stands for, however American wrestling has slowly evolved to the point where the top face in Steve Austin regularly adopts the characteristics of a heel in his ring work.

 

Does that make Steve Austin wrong? Of course not.... It just means wrestling has changed. Austin/Triple H vs Jericho/Benoit is the perfect example of that.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"Personally I have other reasons why I like it so much. I thought it summed up what the WWF has evolved into over the last few years. On one hand you have the set babyface and heel roles yet at times the face team's actions are remincist of a heel (Jericho pulling the ref out immediately springs to mind). If that spot occurred in the late 80's or early 90's then you who could say it goes against everything tag wrestling stands for, however American wrestling has slowly evolved to the point where the top face in Steve Austin regularly adopts the characteristics of a heel in his ring work."

 

A few things.

 

* On the subject of the heel/face breakdown in that match, it does go against the general principles of wrestling.  Even in this "Attitude" era, the fans cheer for the faces and the heels get boo'ed for their "heelish" actions.  That said, Jericho pulling the ref out of the ring, regardless of what kind of face/heel psychology exists in todays modern WWF make up, it still goes against the basic rules of wrestling and even more so in tag team wrestling.  

 

* The future of tag team wrestling was also hurt by this.  If someone in the WWF had their head screwed on straight, they would figure out how to get tag teams over by having the simple face in peril type matches that will have a lot of heat and work from there.  Instead, you have fans cheering for FACES pulling out Refs in the ring (without getting DQ'ed), you have Refs looking like idiots because they have no reason *NOT* to see something going on in the ring, etc.

 

* This, coupled with the copious amounts of other poor booking decisions and executions in this match make it one of my least favorite matches of 2001.  Saying it is the US Tag Match of 2001 is like saying Tanaka v Murahama 4/21/01 is the Junior match of the year.  Just because it is the only thing that may have had a little substance doesn't make it a good match.

 

Tim

[Guest zergdude]

"is like saying Tanaka v Murahama 4/21/01 is the Junior match of the year."

 

I'd love for you to fill me on what was then.  Hoshikawa/Marafuji was the only thing that came semi close to that match from what I saw.

 

And I just saw Marafuji/Takaiwa from December.  Marafuji takes an almost evil beating on his left leg and proceeds to backflip and super kick with it.  Rubbing your knee after taking two top rope elbow drops to it is not exactly good selling.  That's technically next year though.

[Guest MRFTW]

"Even in this "Attitude" era, the fans cheer for the faces and the heels get boo'ed for their "heelish" actions."

 

Like when the fans pop when Lita cheats and intereferes in everyone of the Hardyz matches or when they chear every time the Dudleyz would put someone through a table?

 

The old face/heel definitions died long ago during the days of the Bret vs Austin feud

[Guest Captian Linger]

I still haven't seen Tanaka/Murahama or any other top Juniors match of last year. I have seen all of Mutoh's "acclaimed" work but Mutoh/Tenryu wasn't as good as Hokuto/Satomura.

 

So what is everyone's MOTY for last year?

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"I'd love for you to fill me on what was then.  Hoshikawa/Marafuji was the only thing that came semi close to that match from what I saw."

 

In all honesty, I saw very little in the way of *outstanding* Junior matches in 2001 that follow the criteria for being great.  I have Wes' Eastside Connection Comps coming soon so maybe an Indy out there is a great Junior match but I will have to wait until I see myself.

 

My problem with the Juniors action is that the good is good, but it is the same stuff we have seen over and over.  I thought Marifuji v Hoshikawa from 3/2 was good and something a bit fresh but Marifuji was still very green.  I await to see their 3/2/02 rematch.

 

Murahama/Tanaka was totally carried by Murahama (a 2 yr rookie) working with Tanaka, the next Junior God who has yet to step to the plate.  Liger has done a nice job with the Young Lions but he hasn't been able to shine in a singles matches, mostly due to a lack of oppurtunities.  Torymon Singles matches are hurt by a real lack of focus.  MPro didn't put on anything really spectacular.

 

In terms of what I liked in Juniors for 2001, I liked the direction that WCW was heading with the Cruisers once again.  By 3/26, I think they had reached the level of doing a very highspot with psychological thought type of match.....and then Bischoff couldnt come through and by it.  But as 2 matches back to back, Helms v Guerrero from SIN and GREED play the Young Guy v Vet as well as I have seen in a US feud in quite a long time.

 

As for my MOTY for 2001, nohting struck me as blow away though I am still catching up on Joshi for 2001.  That said, I think my favorite match from 2001 would be the 9/16 Momoe v Ito Title match, even if it is not the best per say.

 

Tim, who enjoyed being introduced into the world of the Destroyer in 2001/early 2002 more than anything new put on in the Wrestling World in the year of 2001.

[Guest zergdude]

"I have Wes' Eastside Connection Comps coming soon so maybe an Indy out there is a great Junior match but I will have to wait until I see myself."

 

If Dragon/Ki from July is on there, that might be the only thing close to being a contender for best Junior match of the year.  A lot of stuff from the indys last year was just average with some promising workers, especially American Dragon.  Spanky was excellent from what I saw too.  A lot of guys pimped like Ki and Red I have found to be overrated like no tomorrow.  Too much hype.  Red can fly, that's it.  Ki can kick and hit a load of contrived moves but he has problems making them click and seem like a full match.

 

"My problem with the Juniors action is that the good is good, but it is the same stuff we have seen over and over.  I thought Marifuji v Hoshikawa from 3/2 was good and something a bit fresh but Marifuji was still very green."

 

I liked that match simply because of it's energy.  I have no problem with unorginality as long as it clicks and comes across as a good match.  Marafuji is way to green and has some issues with his selling.  Both of his Takaiwa matches show this.  Firstly he takes a superbomb near the end of their first match and is up, seemingly fresh to go, about 5 seconds later.  For once Takaiwa out sold someone, even if he too was guilty of no selling some arm work.  Their December match has the leg thing I discussed.  I liked the December match simply because of the psychology.  Takaiwa would simply kill Marafuji and than refuse to cover him with anything more than one leg across the throat, like he's too good to use a full pin on Marafuji.  He acts like such a prick too, whipping out all sorts of violent ways to hurt Marafuji.  But, backflipping onto a leg after taking 2 flying elbows to it, landing on it hard after being suplexed to the floor, and spending 3 minutes in a figure four where they really played it as Marafuji tapping any second pissed me off.  I liked Liger/Tanaka as well as it had the spunky shooter trying like no tomorrow to rip the veterans arm off, but Liger just wouldn't tap.  Heated near submissions and Liger's selling of the arm (like sucking up the pain to smack Tanaka with a few shotei) came off really good to me.

 

"Murahama/Tanaka was totally carried by Murahama (a 2 yr rookie) working with Tanaka, the next Junior God who has yet to step to the plate."

 

I for one think that Tanaka made that match click and guided him through a lot of the early sequences.  He basically made it Murahama's match to shine because who knew if he would ever get the chance to do it in New Japan again.  They put the spots in at exactly the right time IMO, especially the part where Murahama got his brains scrambled and asked for the count to be held off until he gained a sense of direction again, but the minute he comes back in, he kicks Tanaka right in the fucking head.  

 

"Liger has done a nice job with the Young Lions but he hasn't been able to shine in a singles matches, mostly due to a lack of oppurtunities."

 

Liger was awesome last year.  His G1 matches were good stuff, his work with Inoue and Shibata was excellent, and he often worked his ass off in tags.  Granted most was average, but Liger definitely made things go.  The 12/11 8 man tag was excellent and high energy, as are a lot of other Liger tag matches from the second half of the year.  He and Gedo really impressed me last year.  I had written both off entirely.

 

"Torymon Singles matches are hurt by a real lack of focus."

 

I said unorginality doesn't bother me, but in the case of Toryumon where the psych is really weak and the screw jobs flow like water, it pisses me off to no end.  The 5 man cage match was the only really high end match I saw out of them because of all the clever spots they had in it, like friends turning on each other or tricking them to escape.  It was really neat.  But, it too ended with screw job thanks to Ultimo Russo.  All of their tags kind of blend into one for me and Magnum/Masaaki from their July PPV seemed average to me.

 

"MPro didn't put on anything really spectacular."

 

Tiger Mask 4/Great Sasuke v. Gedo/Jado for the IWGP Junior tag belts is excellent, as was the 7/22 TM 4/Hidaka match.  I enjoyed both of them greatly.

 

"In terms of what I liked in Juniors for 2001, I liked the direction that WCW was heading with the Cruisers once again.  By 3/26, I think they had reached the level of doing a very highspot with psychological thought type of match.....and then Bischoff couldnt come through and by it."

 

Way too spotty for me, like Toryumon.  They came across as most WCW Cruiser matches (with the exception of the high end ones) came across to me.  It's like they were saying, "Look what we can do" rather than establishing a clever match like Ultimo/Rey or Rey/Eddy did in the first division.  

 

"But as 2 matches back to back, Helms v Guerrero from SIN and GREED play the Young Guy v Vet as well as I have seen in a US feud in quite a long time."

 

I liked these, but not that much.  It clicked well, but they really disappointed me with the talent involved.

[Guest MrDanger]

1) On the subject of the heel/face breakdown in that match, it does go against the general principles of wrestling.  Even in this "Attitude" era, the fans cheer for the faces and the heels get boo'ed for their "heelish" actions.  

 

2) The future of tag team wrestling was also hurt by this.  If someone in the WWF had their head screwed on straight, they would figure out how to get tag teams over by having the simple face in peril type matches that will have a lot of heat and work from there.  

 

3)Saying it is the US Tag Match of 2001 is like saying Tanaka v Murahama 4/21/01 is the Junior match of the year.  Just because it is the only thing that may have had a little substance doesn't make it a good match.

1) I've already explained this, Austin in any other era would be a heel as would The Rock. Going by their actions, there is no defined heels or faces in today's scene, just shades of grey.

 

2) Go watch the match again, the four worked a hot tag spot and built it up for several minutes.

 

3) But Tanaka vs Murahama was the best Junior match match in 2001 just as Austin/Triple H vs Jericho/Benoit was the best North American tag match in 2001.

[Guest zergdude]

"So what is everyone's MOTY for last year?"

 

I'm going to go with Hokuto/Satomura.  The problem with last year was that there was some great stuff, but nothing I'd really call a match of the year.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"If Dragon/Ki from July is on there, that might be the only thing close to being a contender for best Junior match of the year.  A lot of stuff from the indys last year was just average with some promising workers, especially American Dragon.  Spanky was excellent from what I saw too.  A lot of guys pimped like Ki and Red I have found to be overrated like no tomorrow.  Too much hype.  Red can fly, that's it.  Ki can kick and hit a load of contrived moves but he has problems making them click and seem like a full match."

 

The only thing I have seen from the guys listed above so far is the Kin of the Indies 2001.  American Dragon, Spanky, and Doug Williams were the stand outs with Lo Ki looking like a "potato kicker" RVD.  Daniels and Styles looked good as well but not as great as Williams in particular.  Lo Ki is a guy who I think most like since he kicks for real but other than that, he doesn't do anything for me (and the kicks don't do too much).  I have read about the 9/14 Lo Ki v Red match as being a freaked out Rey Jr. v Juvi match from 95-6 so I guess only seeing it will tell.

 

"I liked that match simply because of it's energy.  I have no problem with unorginality as long as it clicks and comes across as a good match.  Marafuji is way to green and has some issues with his selling.  Both of his Takaiwa matches show this.  Firstly he takes a superbomb near the end of their first match and is up, seemingly fresh to go, about 5 seconds later.  For once Takaiwa out sold someone, even if he too was guilty of no selling some arm work.  Their December match has the leg thing I discussed.  I liked the December match simply because of the psychology.  Takaiwa would simply kill Marafuji and than refuse to cover him with anything more than one leg across the throat, like he's too good to use a full pin on Marafuji.  He acts like such a prick too, whipping out all sorts of violent ways to hurt Marafuji.  But, backflipping onto a leg after taking 2 flying elbows to it, landing on it hard after being suplexed to the floor, and spending 3 minutes in a figure four where they really played it as Marafuji tapping any second pissed me off.  I liked Liger/Tanaka as well as it had the spunky shooter trying like no tomorrow to rip the veterans arm off, but Liger just wouldn't tap.  Heated near submissions and Liger's selling of the arm (like sucking up the pain to smack Tanaka with a few shotei) came off really good to me."

 

Selling with Juniors is almost always an issue.  It is like the mat work that is done to "kill time" in those matches.  Most of the time it is done real well and smart, yet doesn't really have a purpose other than to kill time.  Selling with Juniors is something like the mat work.  Let's do it to show some stuff but when we need to break out the full array of moves and flying stuff, fuck it.  Liger is a guy who has always sold well......Otani in 1996 was someone who played his selling role to perfection.  Juvi was like that and becoming someone who tried to instill selling in many of his matches until Konan brought him to WCW and he messed up his leg.

 

"I for one think that Tanaka made that match click and guided him through a lot of the early sequences.  He basically made it Murahama's match to shine because who knew if he would ever get the chance to do it in New Japan again.  They put the spots in at exactly the right time IMO, especially the part where Murahama got his brains scrambled and asked for the count to be held off until he gained a sense of direction again, but the minute he comes back in, he kicks Tanaka right in the fucking head."

 

I still think Murahama was in control of the overall flow of the match, but I can def agree to disagree on this point.  I liked the match initially, but upon further inspection, it didn't do more than make me wish that the 1/21/96 Samurai v Otani match was the direction the Juniors had taken (credit JDW).  If they did that, the 4/20 match would have come across better.  

 

"Liger was awesome last year.  His G1 matches were good stuff, his work with Inoue and Shibata was excellent, and he often worked his ass off in tags.  Granted most was average, but Liger definitely made things go.  The 12/11 8 man tag was excellent and high energy, as are a lot of other Liger tag matches from the second half of the year.  He and Gedo really impressed me last year.  I had written both off entirely."

 

Agreed.

 

"I said unorginality doesn't bother me, but in the case of Toryumon where the psych is really weak and the screw jobs flow like water, it pisses me off to no end.  The 5 man cage match was the only really high end match I saw out of them because of all the clever spots they had in it, like friends turning on each other or tricking them to escape.  It was really neat.  But, it too ended with screw job thanks to Ultimo Russo.  All of their tags kind of blend into one for me and Magnum/Masaaki from their July PPV seemed average to me."

 

The 5 man cage match was a treat, mainly because of my lack of viewing Lucha cage matches so everything came as a surprise to me.  Plus, all the WWF cage matches which suck so badly made this one look extra special to me.  Everything else is like you said, blended and average for the most part.

 

"Tiger Mask 4/Great Sasuke v. Gedo/Jado for the IWGP Junior tag belts is excellent, as was the 7/22 TM 4/Hidaka match.  I enjoyed both of them greatly."

 

I have seen the tag match and it was like the 10/16/94 Otani/Pegasus v Sasuke/BT that I described earlier in this post, very very fun and good the first time, but nothing to make me come back and see, wow, this is something really great.  As for the 7/22 match, I need to see that.  It is going head to head with the 7/21 Dragon v Lo KI match to compare.

 

"Way too spotty for me, like Toryumon.  They came across as most WCW Cruiser matches (with the exception of the high end ones) came across to me.  It's like they were saying, "Look what we can do" rather than establishing a clever match like Ultimo/Rey or Rey/Eddy did in the first division."

 

I understand where you are coming from but I think a few things need to be taken into consideration.  

 

* The Division was dead since Oct of 1999.  At Sin in January, when things started to get rolling, I saw some very subtle things come into play.  Helms and Chavo put together a more than exceptable match at SIN which did 2 things effectivly.  It: a.) continued to make the gradual appraoch to Helms being a face (something that Russo made so unclear with every face and heel wrestler) and got Chavo over as a heel; b.) It allowed for a re-match and a wrestling story to continue, more than I can say for the WWF and their great stories.  

 

By the end of WCW, the CW tag team matches were very much spot fests, though done well enough that at Greed, Jason Jett/Allen Funk and the Rey/Kidman v Romeo/Skipper had tons of heat, for both the face and heel sides.  I came to the realization that we aren't going to be able to have mat work in the CW matches just yet so the spotty nature was acceptable for the time being.  Other than the GREAT Dragon matches in 11/96 with Rey Jr. and 12/96 with Malenko, mat work was either made to be boring by Malenko or just not used.

 

* As great as it was to see all of those guys on free TV and such, the WCW CW division of old was over rated.  It was over rated in a AJPW 1998-2000 way.  The matches were still pretty good and very watchable, but overall, better things had been done before and would be done after.  Only 4 really memorable matches that would hold up to anything else in the world come to mind from that original division.

 

- 11/96 Rey Jr. v Dragon

- 12/96 Dragon v Malenko

- 10/97 Rey Jr. v Eddy.

- 12/98 Kidman v Rey Jr. v Juvi (for personal reasons more than just the plain good old work)

 

* As WCW re-established a once totally dead division, they also instilled some really neat things as well.  Shane Helms v Hayashi from Thunder for entry into the Superbrawl match contained 2 spots that they played off of in the 6 person elimination match.  The kick to the head roll through and something else.  Just little things like that gave a distinct hope that it would not only continue but also get better.  The additions of Modest and Daniels, as well as Styles, Jett, etc also gave me that hope.  I think if Boschoff had bought them, we would probably be seeing Lo Ki, American Dragon, and some others more regularly on TV.    

 

To tell you in the least amount of words, I miss WCW because even in its worst times of unwatchable stuff, it was *my* promotion that I watched exclusivly.  That's why it is hard to grasp WWF at all today.

 

Tim

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"2) Go watch the match again, the four worked a hot tag spot and built it up for several minutes."

 

I got rid of the match but will happily seek it out again to try to re-watch it.  Hot tags are only part of th eformula to make a really awesome tag match.  Watch the great AJPW tag matches, they don't have the southern style hot tags but that doesn't make them bad.  I think I have my whole analysis of the match saved or else I will get it again and write a new one.

 

"3) But Tanaka vs Murahama was the best Junior match match in 2001 just as Austin/Triple H vs Jericho/Benoit was the best North American tag match in 2001."

 

Yes, because it was the only thing over **** that really showed anyone something.  Put that match up in 1992-1997 and it does nothing.  Just as when you put the tag match up against the really great tags of history's past.

 

Tim

[Guest MrDanger]

1) Hot tags are only part of th eformula to make a really awesome tag match.  Watch the great AJPW tag matches, they don't have the southern style hot tags but that doesn't make them bad.  I think I have my whole analysis of the match saved or else I will get it again and write a new one.

 

 

2) Yes, because it was the only thing over **** that really showed anyone something.  Put that match up in 1992-1997 and it does nothing.  Just as when you put the tag match up against the really great tags of history's past.

1) For someone who thinks the match is "Utter garbage", you sure spend a great deal of time talking about it and even analysing it.

 

2) I don't know about anybody else but Marufuji vs Hoshikawa from March really showed me something, as did Takaiwa vs Kanemura 10-26 and even Liger vs Tanaka 3-24. There's been plenty of top quality Junior action this year, Tanaka vs Murahama was just the pinnacle in most people's view.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"1) For someone who thinks the match is "Utter garbage", you sure spend a great deal of time talking about it and even analysing it."

 

Well, I love talking about wrestling and I love talking about this match since I seem to be one of the only people to find flaws with it.

 

"2) I don't know about anybody else but Marufuji vs Hoshikawa from March really showed me something, as did Takaiwa vs Kanemura 10-26 and even Liger vs Tanaka 3-24. There's been plenty of top quality Junior action this year, Tanaka vs Murahama was just the pinnacle in most people's view."

 

I haven't seen the 3/17 Liger v Tanaka but aren't only 5 mins shown or did BS Ashhi release it in full?

 

As for the top quality Juniors action, it is nothing that I haven't seen in the past few years.  I really haven't seen anything new in Juniors wrestling that actually makes an impact and also improves the genre since 1997.

 

Tim

[Guest Luke Argyle]

3/17 is in full.  It's about 16 minutes.  I have the TV block from Nagoya that it was on and it's also on my comp!  *SHILL!*  Hey, I'm getting good at that!  Actually, the BoSJ final from last year was touted as the better match between Liger and Tanaka, but I have never seen it.

[Guest Jubuki]

1) For someone who thinks the match is "Utter garbage", you sure spend a great deal of time talking about it and even analysing it.

 

Oh please...

 

Isn't that the point?  If you like something, you explain why?

 

If you don't like something, you explain why?

 

That's the idea, right?  To understand what's going on and why it elicits the response it does?

 

2) I don't know about anybody else but Marufuji vs Hoshikawa from March really showed me something, as did Takaiwa vs Kanemura 10-26 and even Liger vs Tanaka 3-24. There's been plenty of top quality Junior action this year, Tanaka vs Murahama was just the pinnacle in most people's view.

 

That depends on your idea of 'top quality.'  Considering last year's best stuff doesn't touch or even get a whiff of the best from 94-97, I'd have to say it's not all that top quality.