Rolling Germans best of the 90's comp?ROLLING GERM

[Guest MrDanger]

1) Well, I love talking about wrestling and I love talking about this match since I seem to be one of the only people to find flaws with it.

 

2) As for the top quality Juniors action, it is nothing that I haven't seen in the past few years.  I really haven't seen anything new in Juniors wrestling that actually makes an impact and also improves the genre since 1997.

1) You're the only person I've ever talked to who doesn't like the match, what does that tell you?

 

2) In 5 years time we all could look back at Marufuji vs Hoshikawa and say that was the match that launched Marufuji, is that not impactful considering Marufuji may just be the future of Junior wrestling?

[Guest Jubuki]

1) You're the only person I've ever talked to who doesn't like the match, what does that tell you?

 

It probably tells him, and it sure tells me, you're not talking to the right people.

 

2) In 5 years time we all could look back at Marufuji vs Hoshikawa and say that was the match that launched Marufuji, is that not impactful considering Marufuji may just be the future of Junior wrestling?

 

And we could look back in 5 years time and say, "Wow, Marufuji ended up going nowhere.  That was an anomaly, and not even a particularly good one at that."  Deal in what the match DOES, not whatever imaginings you'd like to affix to it or its participants.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"1) You're the only person I've ever talked to who doesn't like the match, what does that tell you?"

 

Tells me a few things.

 

a- People haven't looked deep enough into the match to actually think about what was really happening in it.

 

b- Those people are diehard fans of any of the 4 wrestlers in the match.  But wait, I am included in that because my favorite wrestler for a long time was Benoit and Austin is my favorite US Wrestling Personality and a damn fine wrestler when allowed to showcase his talent.  So am I included in this?  No, because I can look past "favorites" in order to reveal truths.

 

c- Diehard WWF fans who believe that not only the is the WWF style of wrestling the best, but also is an "evolution" of sorts in the wrestling business.

 

d- maybe some people just like average wrestling covered by a few "crowd pleasing" WWF tactics.

 

But seriously, if you would like to discuss *specifics* in the match, I am more than happy to.  In fact, I bet this will surprise you but the first 8 minutes or so are that of a good match; it's the final 6 minutes where everything goes down the toilet with faces pulling refs out the ring, the ref looking like an idiot, illegal men getting pinfalls, etc.

 

"2) In 5 years time we all could look back at Marufuji vs Hoshikawa and say that was the match that launched Marufuji, is that not impactful considering Marufuji may just be the future of Junior wrestling?"

 

That's the thing......we won't know it's impact until history comes.  That is why something like the 1/21/96 Samurai v Otani match was a MOTYC at the time and in the future became even more important because of the possible style it could have lead the Juniors too.

 

Marifuji v Hoshikawa is a good match that I enjoyed but doesn't stand out as a MOTYC to me.....as for its historical factor, time will be the teller to this story.

 

Tim

[Guest zergdude]

“The only thing I have seen from the guys listed above so far is the Kin of the Indies 2001.  American Dragon, Spanky, and Doug Williams were the stand outs”

 

American Dragon is really good, Spanky shows a lot of promise, and Williams is just awesome.  I’m in the camp that hated the finals of the King of the Indys tourney between Ki/Dragon.  Well, not hated entirely.  It’s about ** ½ compared to the matches they had at the Super 8 and the one in July, both being in the *** ½ range.  Ki’s selling was just off.

 

“with Lo Ki looking like a "potato kicker" RVD.”

 

Agreed.

 

” Daniels and Styles looked good as well but not as great as Williams in particular.”

 

I like Styles, but Daniels has never impressed me.  He comes off as another overhyped Indy guy, that when you finally do see him, it leaves you with a feeling of “that was it?”  Kind of like Low Ki.  

 

“Lo Ki is a guy who I think most like since he kicks for real but other than that, he doesn't do anything for me (and the kicks don't do too much).  I have read about the 9/14 Lo Ki v Red match as being a freaked out Rey Jr. v Juvi match from 95-6 so I guess only seeing it will tell.”

 

Some people like stiffness, and the Red/Ki match is kind of “freaked out” as you put it, but not in the same ballpark as a Rey/Juvi match from 95-96.  If you took the 3 best Rey/Juvi matches (which I’m sure we can agree on), Ki/Red isn’t even close to them.  It’s a fairly average match between two spotty indy workers.  Low end Junior stuff, and that’s for 2001.

 

“Selling with Juniors is almost always an issue.  It is like the mat work that is done to "kill time" in those matches.  Most of the time it is done real well and smart, yet doesn't really have a purpose other than to kill time.  Selling with Juniors is something like the mat work.  Let's do it to show some stuff but when we need to break out the full array of moves and flying stuff, fuck it.”

 

I see this differently than you.  There’s wear down mat work where you don’t focus on one point but just try to take your opponent out as a whole so they’re weaker when you drag out the big shit, or there’s the focused stuff that gets no sold later in the match.  The later pisses me off.  The Liger/Sasuke matches from ’94 are good examples of wear down submissions because even though Sasuke’s arm was HEAVILY worked, it never came into play during the match.  If you have your leg worked by taking some violent shots to it and you want to bring out spots that involve springboarding, at least work an arm or something that isn’t the focus of later spots so it doesn’t look retarded.

 

 

“Liger is a guy who has always sold well......Otani in 1996 was someone who played his selling role to perfection.”

 

No argument there.  The Liger/Ohtani matches are my favorite Junior matches ever and Liger is my favorite Junior.  

 

“Juvi was like that and becoming someone who tried to instill selling in many of his matches until Konan brought him to WCW and he messed up his leg.”

 

I’m glad you mentioned this.  Juvi is often praised as one of the best young workers ever but nobody ever mentions why or really gets into his often clever selling other than a select few and it results in him being left off of best of lists when he really deserves to be on them.

 

”I still think Murahama was in control of the overall flow of the match, but I can def agree to disagree on this point.  I liked the match initially, but upon further inspection, it didn't do more than make me wish that the 1/21/96 Samurai v Otani match was the direction the Juniors had taken (credit JDW).  If they did that, the 4/20 match would have come across better.”

 

If you’ve seen the work Murahama has been doing 5 months prior to that match in Osaka (and even the 12/14 match in New Japan), you can tell he’s not the one for controlling pace.  Than watch Tanaka leading up to the match and notice that he’s very good at keeping the match going at a level speed without progressing too fast.  It makes perfect sense when you watch all the work leading up to it that you’ll notice Tanaka is basically making the match go and Murahama goes with him as both guys insert their spots to make the match look fancy.  Not saying Murahama was carried, but Tanaka was making the match go to make Murahama look good, maybe even get signed.  And I fail to see how getting carried makes a bad match even if one guy was controlling the pace.  I’d give Tenkoji v. Barton/Steele ****, maybe more, and I think we know Barton and Steele have nothing to do with that.  As for the 1/96 match, I think it’s overrated but I can see where JDW is coming from as far as influence and style direction is concerned.  

 

”The 5 man cage match was a treat, mainly because of my lack of viewing Lucha cage matches so everything came as a surprise to me.  Plus, all the WWF cage matches which suck so badly made this one look extra special to me.  Everything else is like you said, blended and average for the most part.”

 

My favorite spots in that match are the betraying of friendships between Darkness/Masaaki and Kid/Tokyo, like when Darkness tricks Masaaki so he can cheat and Masaaki runs away when the corner charge is going on.  Attention to detail like that was what made that match so cool.  Attention to detail is something that a lot of companies don’t do in their cage matches, especially the WWF with what I saw from them the last time I watched a WWF match.  

 

”I have seen the tag match and it was like the 10/16/94 Otani/Pegasus v Sasuke/BT that I described earlier in this post, very very fun and good the first time, but nothing to make me come back and see, wow, this is something really great.”

 

The first match is really fun, but fun matches keep me coming back.  Psychologically deep ones keep me interested, fun ones pick me up when I’m bored.  I suppose I like the Mpro tag just because Jado and Gedo worked so well in it, especially Gedo.  They were performed extremely well in that match and put some good heat into the match, like the constant slamming of TM’s head into the exposed turnbuckle.

 

“As for the 7/22 match, I need to see that.  It is going head to head with the 7/21 Dragon v Lo KI match to compare.”

 

I know someone said that Hidaka/TM was better than Dragon/Ki.  I think Stuart?  They come across as equals to me for their respective styles.  Both about *** ½-*** ¾.

 

” The Division was dead since Oct of 1999.  At Sin in January, when things started to get rolling, I saw some very subtle things come into play.  Helms and Chavo put together a more than exceptable match at SIN which did 2 things effectivly.  It: a.) continued to make the gradual appraoch to Helms being a face (something that Russo made so unclear with every face and heel wrestler) and got Chavo over as a heel; b.) It allowed for a re-match and a wrestling story to continue, more than I can say for the WWF and their great stories.”

 

Spotty match is a spotty match.  Doesn’t matter the environment, whether it’s Toryumon or WCW.  Fans are never going to appreciate something if you don’t try it.  As for the strong face/heel alignment, Chavo was a good heel, but Helms came of as a weak face to me.  It seemed all people cheered for were the Vertebreaker and his shiny entrance with the dancers.  Remember, if you can’t amaze them with substance, baffle them with bullshit.  I liked the matches, but I don’t think they were ever over *** ½ and they gradually got worse near the end.  

 

”By the end of WCW, the CW tag team matches were very much spot fests, though done well enough that at Greed, Jason Jett/Allen Funk and the Rey/Kidman v Romeo/Skipper had tons of heat, for both the face and heel sides.  I came to the realization that we aren't going to be able to have mat work in the CW matches just yet so the spotty nature was acceptable for the time being.”

 

I liked both of those tag matches (Greed and Nitro).  Both I’d put around *** ¼-*** ½, but it was really all over the place in a few spots and Skipper and Romeo were weak Juniors, plus Kidman and Rey were in a hit or miss era.  Jett/Funk was lucky if it went over **.  Those matches were basically a start.  You and I both know they were capable of so much more.

 

“Other than the GREAT Dragon matches in 11/96 with Rey Jr. and 12/96 with Malenko, mat work was either made to be boring by Malenko or just not used.”

 

I don’t like the Malenko/Rey match, mainly because I like it better when Rey is getting his ass handed to him and he’s hitting fast desperation spots.  Liger, Eddy, and most importantly Dragon did that with him in WCW.  The mat work Malenko brought into that match (and also into the Psychosis match) was not only style clashing, but it truly was boring because you knew it just could have been so much more.  

 

”As great as it was to see all of those guys on free TV and such, the WCW CW division of old was over rated.”

 

Agreed.  I explained the whole “look what I can do” thing already.

 

“It was over rated in a AJPW 1998-2000 way.”

 

Agreed again.  The stuff from the early 90’s WCW was pretty good and some of the great Cruiser matches opened the doors for more, but it all came down to the equivalent of Misawa and Kobashi turning into head dropping retards.  

 

“The matches were still pretty good and very watchable, but overall, better things had been done before and would be done after.  Only 4 really memorable matches that would hold up to anything else in the world come to mind from that original division.”

 

4 or 5 sounds right, but remember that this stuff wasn’t new to me and you in ’97, but it may have been to the audience WCW was going after with this division.  If that’s the case, they semi succeeded.  We knew what these guys were truly capable of, the Juvis, the Reys, the Dragons, and the Eddys, but in a way we were let down.

 

 

”11/96 Rey Jr. v Dragon”

 

Agreed.  Someone called this the best Cruiser match ever.  JDW?  It’s awesome but not THE best IMO, but I can once again why he would say it.

 

”12/96 Dragon v Malenko”

 

Agreed.  Throw the Clash match on there too because it was pretty much in the same caliber as that one.

 

”10/97 Rey Jr. v Eddy.”

 

Agreed.

 

”12/98 Kidman v Rey Jr. v Juvi (for personal reasons more than just the plain good old work)”

 

I’d love to hear those personal reasons because that doesn’t even come close to amounting to a top five for me, nor was it on the level of what everyone else was doing in the world.  Thinking randomly of one Junior match from ’98 off the top of my head, Wagner/Koji comes to mind and that match blows that one out of the water.

 

“As WCW re-established a once totally dead division, they also instilled some really neat things as well.  Shane Helms v Hayashi from Thunder for entry into the Superbrawl match contained 2 spots that they played off of in the 6 person elimination match.  The kick to the head roll through and something else.  Just little things like that gave a distinct hope that it would not only continue but also get better.”

 

I like that match but you have to realize that Hayashi has experience with these types of things and is a much better worker than Helms was, although Helms wasn’t bad.  

 

“The additions of Modest and Daniels, as well as Styles, Jett, etc also gave me that hope.  I think if Boschoff had bought them, we would probably be seeing Lo Ki, American Dragon, and some others more regularly on TV.”

 

I would personally liked to have seen Dragon in that division as he was more on the non spotty Chavo side of work.  Daniels does nothing for me but Modest is great.  Watching some of his NOAH stuff from the end of last year was a real treat for me.  Modest/Morgan v. Kanemura/Shiga was really good from December in NOAH and Modest was the one that gave a lot of that match a progressive push, surprisingly not Kanemura.  That said, the Daniels/Modest match on Nitro was fucking horrible.  I like Styles, but I don’t like Jett.

 

“To tell you in the least amount of words, I miss WCW because even in its worst times of unwatchable stuff, it was *my* promotion that I watched exclusivly.  That's why it is hard to grasp WWF at all today.”

 

Agreed.  Vince said it himself.  He doesn’t run a wrestling company.  He runs a circus with the occasional good match.  For every Austin/Bret or Shawn/Foley, I can think of 3 matches in WCW I’d rather watch because they keep me interested longer, like Wargames or the Strap match or the Southern Boys/Midnights tag which I think was mentioned somewhere in this thread.  Plus WWF will never have a lightweight division that measures up to what WCW was doing when they were about to hit a big constant flow of great matches but fucked up the direction.  Such is WCW.  I haven’t watched a WWF match since Summerslam, mainly because Vince (in his own words) isn’t appealing to my audience, so I’ll take my money elsewhere.  Tell me if I miss anything.

[Guest zergdude]

"Actually, the BoSJ final from last year was touted as the better match between Liger and Tanaka, but I have never seen it."

 

It is better.  Much better actually.  I was referring to that match when I mentioned Tanaka/Liger earlier.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"American Dragon is really good, Spanky shows a lot of promise, and Williams is just awesome.  I’m in the camp that hated the finals of the King of the Indys tourney between Ki/Dragon.  Well, not hated entirely.  It’s about ** ½ compared to the matches they had at the Super 8 and the one in July, both being in the *** ½ range.  Ki’s selling was just off."

 

Spanky was a neat babyface in the Dragon match as even though Dragon wasn't a heel, Spanky has that look and selling to make you want to get behind him.  

 

Williams was off the charts in carrying Adam "I want to use Memphis Heel Tactics" Pierce to a great 8 minute match.  So much fun mat work........gotta love those Carny British fellas.

 

"I like Styles, but Daniels has never impressed me.  He comes off as another overhyped Indy guy, that when you finally do see him, it leaves you with a feeling of “that was it?”  Kind of like Low Ki."

 

I agree to some extent though Daniels work in spotfest is what makes me see some potential.  His work in the 12/21/99 Mpro 6 man saw some neat stuff.  But I am *not* sold on his all around ability.  I await his ROH match to see if he delivered or if Dragon kept a flow of the match and crowd was just happy with Ki's kicks.  

 

"Some people like stiffness, and the Red/Ki match is kind of “freaked out” as you put it, but not in the same ballpark as a Rey/Juvi match from 95-96.  If you took the 3 best Rey/Juvi matches (which I’m sure we can agree on), Ki/Red isn’t even close to them.  It’s a fairly average match between two spotty indy workers.  Low end Junior stuff, and that’s for 2001."

 

I hear ya.....I just love comparing and contrasting stuff.  The Santo/Casas feud was so much more intriguing when you see how Rey/Juvi built off of it.  Too bad Lo Ki/Red wouldn't follow in their tracks in terms of smart work.

 

"I see this differently than you.  There’s wear down mat work where you don’t focus on one point but just try to take your opponent out as a whole so they’re weaker when you drag out the big shit, or there’s the focused stuff that gets no sold later in the match.  The later pisses me off.  The Liger/Sasuke matches from ’94 are good examples of wear down submissions because even though Sasuke’s arm was HEAVILY worked, it never came into play during the match.  If you have your leg worked by taking some violent shots to it and you want to bring out spots that involve springboarding, at least work an arm or something that isn’t the focus of later spots so it doesn’t look retarded."

 

I see your points.  I don't mind the mat work  if it is smart and understand the points, but I have seen AJPW heavies do "time killing" or "wear down" stuff early on that don't deal with the submission aspects of the match.  Still, point acknowledged and taken.

 

"I’m glad you mentioned this.  Juvi is often praised as one of the best young workers ever but nobody ever mentions why or really gets into his often clever selling other than a select few and it results in him being left off of best of lists when he really deserves to be on them."

 

I didn't know about the true awesomeness of Juvi until I was educated to it.  I thought Juvi was good in WCW initially but never thought he could be as great as he was in the 3/16/96 Tijuana match v Rey.  Just an outstanding example of Lucha Libre meets NJPW Juniors meets UWF-I matwork meets one of the greatest Juniors matches ever.  

 

"If you’ve seen the work Murahama has been doing 5 months prior to that match in Osaka (and even the 12/14 match in New Japan), you can tell he’s not the one for controlling pace.  Than watch Tanaka leading up to the match and notice that he’s very good at keeping the match going at a level speed without progressing too fast.  It makes perfect sense when you watch all the work leading up to it that you’ll notice Tanaka is basically making the match go and Murahama goes with him as both guys insert their spots to make the match look fancy.  Not saying Murahama was carried, but Tanaka was making the match go to make Murahama look good, maybe even get signed.  And I fail to see how getting carried makes a bad match even if one guy was controlling the pace.  I’d give Tenkoji v. Barton/Steele ****, maybe more, and I think we know Barton and Steele have nothing to do with that.  As for the 1/96 match, I think it’s overrated but I can see where JDW is coming from as far as influence and style direction is concerned."

 

I need to rewatch that match as it is not fresh it my mind (4/20 that is).  That said, the match doesn't kick me in the balls like other stuff so that could be why I don't view it as highly.  But hey, we all have our bias,

 

"My favorite spots in that match are the betraying of friendships between Darkness/Masaaki and Kid/Tokyo, like when Darkness tricks Masaaki so he can cheat and Masaaki runs away when the corner charge is going on.  Attention to detail like that was what made that match so cool.  Attention to detail is something that a lot of companies don’t do in their cage matches, especially the WWF with what I saw from them the last time I watched a WWF match."

 

The pre match stuff rules to as DD gives only the middle finger since he can't speak any Japanese.  A very well thought out match that was never boring....not because they were doing a move a second but because of smart, well planned booking.  People bitch about HHH's lack of move set....I can live with that if he would be a smart worker.  

 

"The first match is really fun, but fun matches keep me coming back.  Psychologically deep ones keep me interested, fun ones pick me up when I’m bored.  I suppose I like the Mpro tag just because Jado and Gedo worked so well in it, especially Gedo.  They were performed extremely well in that match and put some good heat into the match, like the constant slamming of TM’s head into the exposed turnbuckle."

 

No doubt a fine match that I have enjoyed on 2 different occassions......maybe I was expecting more.  Sometimes when I watch stuff, I almost wish for the impossible and am dissapointed.  That's something I need to work out I guess

 

"I know someone said that Hidaka/TM was better than Dragon/Ki.  I think Stuart?  They come across as equals to me for their respective styles.  Both about *** ½-*** ¾."

 

Stuart did and that is why I want to compare them both myself.  

 

"Spotty match is a spotty match.  Doesn’t matter the environment, whether it’s Toryumon or WCW.  Fans are never going to appreciate something if you don’t try it."

 

Agreed.  But at that point, in rebuilding a division in which a mock of Jim Ross was once Champion, spotty is better than nothing.  

 

"As for the strong face/heel alignment, Chavo was a good heel, but Helms came of as a weak face to me.  It seemed all people cheered for were the Vertebreaker and his shiny entrance with the dancers.  Remember, if you can’t amaze them with substance, baffle them with bullshit.  I liked the matches, but I don’t think they were ever over *** ½ and they gradually got worse near the end."

 

The thing I liked most was that Helms, who previous had mostly gotten cheap heat for the 3 Count singing or just "X Pac heat" for lack of a better term, was actually getting cheered for his in ring stuff and Chavo's heel stuff.  The matches weren't spectacular, but they were something of a progression.  A progression from the lowest common denominator to bad to not so bad to average to "hey we are actually turning this thing around."  

 

"I liked both of those tag matches (Greed and Nitro).  Both I’d put around *** ¼-*** ½, but it was really all over the place in a few spots and Skipper and Romeo were weak Juniors, plus Kidman and Rey were in a hit or miss era.  Jett/Funk was lucky if it went over **.  Those matches were basically a start.  You and I both know they were capable of so much more."

 

The tag matches, particularly the Greed one, did so much in the heat department (remember, a year previous at Uncensored, the crowd of 3000 would have cheered for a cock fight over the shitty wrestling in the ring).  They messed up some stuff but my main point was seeing that a progression forward was being made and that one day, things could actually be terrific.

 

Rey/Kidman are something.  During the Russo era, they had to do the bronco buster and "face full of stuff" spots and that is it.  It took them all of Feb and March to regain most form and I think they were beginnning too.  I haven;t seen Nov/Dec 2001 Lucha yet, but Rey supposivly looks World Class.  Here's hoping he stays away from WWF.

 

Funk v Jett should have been *.  Yet they were able to play to the crowd in a wrestling way and put on something very watchable.  For that, they get all the credit in the world from me for that match.

 

"I don’t like the Malenko/Rey match, mainly because I like it better when Rey is getting his ass handed to him and he’s hitting fast desperation spots."

 

Agreed... over rated feud.

 

"Liger, Eddy, and most importantly Dragon did that with him in WCW.  The mat work Malenko brought into that match (and also into the Psychosis match) was not only style clashing, but it truly was boring because you knew it just could have been so much more."

 

Agreed more, maybe it wasn't clear but I was referring to Dragon v Malenko not any of the Rey v Dean matches (which all had some big problems).  

 

:snip some minor stuff:

 

"Agreed again.  The stuff from the early 90’s WCW was pretty good and some of the great Cruiser matches opened the doors for more, but it all came down to the equivalent of Misawa and Kobashi turning into head dropping retards."

 

Yep and I think the "they are on my TV for free and I don't have to spend all that money on that evil man who steals in Pittsburgh" was a factor in how great that division was.  

 

"4 or 5 sounds right, but remember that this stuff wasn’t new to me and you in ’97, but it may have been to the audience WCW was going after with this division.  If that’s the case, they semi succeeded.  We knew what these guys were truly capable of, the Juvis, the Reys, the Dragons, and the Eddys, but in a way we were let down."

 

That's where I am at a disadvantage.  I didn't start watching WCW until early 1998 (when I started wrestling in general).  So my views are all from a standpoint of looking back for the 1997 and earlier stuff.  I was late to the party.

 

 

”11/96 Rey Jr. v Dragon”

 

"Agreed.  Someone called this the best Cruiser match ever.  JDW?  It’s awesome but not THE best IMO, but I can once again why he would say it."

 

Super finish and smart work that made both look good.

 

”12/96 Dragon v Malenko”

 

"Agreed.  Throw the Clash match on there too because it was pretty much in the same caliber as that one."

 

The Clash match seems akward to me....still fun but not as good as the STarrcade match, which I have been debating over and over again on how I really feel about it since viewing number one.

 

”12/98 Kidman v Rey Jr. v Juvi (for personal reasons more than just the plain good old work)”

 

"I’d love to hear those personal reasons because that doesn’t even come close to amounting to a top five for me, nor was it on the level of what everyone else was doing in the world.  Thinking randomly of one Junior match from ’98 off the top of my head, Wagner/Koji comes to mind and that match blows that one out of the water."

 

Okay, tommorow I will go really in depth on this but here is the basic skinny.  3 ways suck.  This is the best 3 way I have ever seen from spots to psych to heat.  Rey/Kidman basically act as a tag team early on, using that on Juvi and doing it well with good spots and smart work.  The match just clicked really well for me.  I would never think about putting it on a top whatever list but for content and structure in the horrible 3 way dance setting, I would point to this as the match I would want to base 3 ways around.  More later on this since this thread is so long and I have a few other things to do.

 

"I like that match but you have to realize that Hayashi has experience with these types of things and is a much better worker than Helms was, although Helms wasn’t bad."

 

Agreed, but once again, the progression and a sign of more better things to come hopefully, until they died.    

 

"I would personally liked to have seen Dragon in that division as he was more on the non spotty Chavo side of work."

 

I agree and he would be choice number one for me out of those guys.

 

"Daniels does nothing for me but Modest is great."

 

Understood and agreed.  

 

"Watching some of his NOAH stuff from the end of last year was a real treat for me.  Modest/Morgan v. Kanemura/Shiga was really good from December in NOAH and Modest was the one that gave a lot of that match a progressive push, surprisingly not Kanemura.  That said, the Daniels/Modest match on Nitro was fucking horrible.  I like Styles, but I don’t like Jett."

 

Need to see that NOAH stuff.  I am liking what is going on with the NOAH Juniors in terms of quality and the new feud with Liger and Co.

 

I think Jett is more than passable as a TV Title level worker.  His match on 3/19/01 with Disco on Nitro was not only watchable but also fun.  Plus he had the crowd support.

 

"Agreed.  Vince said it himself.  He doesn’t run a wrestling company.  He runs a circus with the occasional good match.  For every Austin/Bret or Shawn/Foley, I can think of 3 matches in WCW I’d rather watch because they keep me interested longer, like Wargames or the Strap match or the Southern Boys/Midnights tag which I think was mentioned somewhere in this thread.  Plus WWF will never have a lightweight division that measures up to what WCW was doing when they were about to hit a big constant flow of great matches but fucked up the direction.  Such is WCW.  I haven’t watched a WWF match since Summerslam, mainly because Vince (in his own words) isn’t appealing to my audience, so I’ll take my money elsewhere.  Tell me if I miss anything."

 

Agreed to the highest degree.  But then again, I can't mope because I understand that WCW killed themselves with all the BS.  I can only hope something will come along soon that will be an alternative that isn't INDY based.

 

Tim

[Guest zergdude]

“Spanky was a neat babyface in the Dragon match as even though Dragon wasn't a heel, Spanky has that look and selling to make you want to get behind him.”

 

Agreed.  People are always looking for the next Shawn Michaels, why is beyond me, but RVD and Jeff Hardy or whoever are nothing compared to Spanky (I guess that’s obvious since Shawn trained Spanky).  He’s a great looking youngster for the reasons you listed.  

 

”Williams was off the charts in carrying Adam "I want to use Memphis Heel Tactics" Pierce to a great 8 minute match.  So much fun mat work........gotta love those Carny British fellas.”

 

Agreed to the highest level.  

 

”I agree to some extent though Daniels work in spotfest is what makes me see some potential.”

 

I made this observation once about how Daniels sucked with highspot wrestling because of his selling, but I thought it was just me and I never thought of it again because it was one match in UPW so I figured “of course it sucks.”  Than I saw JDW and a bunch of others confirm it after the WWA PPV, so I know I’m not crazy.  He has this way of taking something, selling it, and than coming out of nowhere like 10 seconds later, fresh and ready to go.

 

“His work in the 12/21/99 Mpro 6 man saw some neat stuff.”

 

I do agree here though.  This is the match that wiped out that feeling I was having because it was actually pretty damn good.

 

“But I am *not* sold on his all around ability.  I await his ROH match to see if he delivered or if Dragon kept a flow of the match and crowd was just happy with Ki's kicks.”

 

I’m figuring the later.  Mainly because three ways to suck to begin with and I’m sure the guys were just told to go out there and draw some holy shit chants like they were probably told to do at the clusterfuck on the WWA show Sunday night.  

 

”I hear ya.....I just love comparing and contrasting stuff.  The Santo/Casas feud was so much more intriguing when you see how Rey/Juvi built off of it.  Too bad Lo Ki/Red wouldn't follow in their tracks in terms of smart work.”

 

I see where you’re coming from, but Ki/Red isn’t a good match to use if you want comparisons.  I’ve seen better from him (not Lucha influenced of course), but this was actually one of the better showings I’ve seen from Red.  The problem with Red and Ki that I mainly have is that they seem to have the WWF problem where they feel like they almost have to flash one of their big spots at least once.

 

”I see your points.  I don't mind the mat work  if it is smart and understand the points, but I have seen AJPW heavies do "time killing" or "wear down" stuff early on that don't deal with the submission aspects of the match.  Still, point acknowledged and taken.”

 

AJPW was an entirely different beast than the Juniors though, but I see where you’re coming from and it makes perfect sense to me.  Even the NOAH guys have seemed to pick up this style of time killing (read: not good) lately so they can build to the big spots.  The Misawa/Akiyama match from last year had to be the worst I’d ever seen out of them as most of their stuff seemed just like it had no point and they just wanted to rush to the big stuff, like Misawa pulling out the top rope tiger driver, yet Akiyama kicking out of it.  I hated that match.

 

”I didn't know about the true awesomeness of Juvi until I was educated to it.  I thought Juvi was good in WCW initially but never thought he could be as great as he was in the 3/16/96 Tijuana match v Rey.  Just an outstanding example of Lucha Libre meets NJPW Juniors meets UWF-I matwork meets one of the greatest Juniors matches ever.”

 

I’m glad you saw the wonderful world of Juvi  

 

”I need to rewatch that match as it is not fresh it my mind (4/20 that is).  That said, the match doesn't kick me in the balls like other stuff so that could be why I don't view it as highly.  But hey, we all have our bias,  ”

 

Yeah, kicking me in the balls is like an added bonus to a great match because I rarely see jaw dropping great stuff come out of promotions these days.  I’ve seen some good stuff last year, but I think AJPW ’89-’93 and a lot of Joshi is the only thing to make my jaw flat out drop ever.

 

”The pre match stuff rules to as DD gives only the middle finger since he can't speak any Japanese.  A very well thought out match that was never boring....not because they were doing a move a second but because of smart, well planned booking.  People bitch about HHH's lack of move set....I can live with that if he would be a smart worker.”

 

A) I need the pre match because I only have the cage match on a Toryumon comp my friend made for me.  That sounds cool and actually makes sense when you look at some of the stuff DD pulled in that match.

B) I don’t like HHH  

 

”Stuart did and that is why I want to compare them both myself. “

 

Yeah, it’s actually a fairly easy comparison because like I said, you’ll find them to be equals for their styles.

 

”Agreed.  But at that point, in rebuilding a division in which a mock of Jim Ross was once Champion, spotty is better than nothing.”

 

I kind of think starting small rather than flat out spot match is the best way to build a division.  Start with the mat work, simple finishes, mix in a few high spots so no one falls asleep.  Then try busting out the big shit.

 

”The tag matches, particularly the Greed one, did so much in the heat department (remember, a year previous at Uncensored, the crowd of 3000 would have cheered for a cock fight over the shitty wrestling in the ring).  They messed up some stuff but my main point was seeing that a progression forward was being made and that one day, things could actually be terrific.”

 

I guess what it comes down to is your idea and my idea of progression.  My idea is to not start complicated with crazy ass spotfests, because when you try to incorporate mat work, fans are already conditioned to not accept it because it’s “low energy”.

 

”I haven;t seen Nov/Dec 2001 Lucha yet, but Rey supposivly looks World Class.  Here's hoping he stays away from WWF.”

 

He’s gotten rather good, granted I haven’t seen stuff that late into 2001 yet, but I too have heard he’s doing great again.

 

”Funk v Jett should have been *.  Yet they were able to play to the crowd in a wrestling way and put on something very watchable.  For that, they get all the credit in the world from me for that match.”

 

Fun is ok, I guess I just don’t like Jett and Funk as Cruisers.

 

”That's where I am at a disadvantage.  I didn't start watching WCW until early 1998 (when I started wrestling in general).  So my views are all from a standpoint of looking back for the 1997 and earlier stuff.  I was late to the party.”

 

Oh, you missed the fun.

 

”The Clash match seems akward to me....still fun but not as good as the STarrcade match, which I have been debating over and over again on how I really feel about it since viewing number one.”

 

Clash had better heat, Starrcade had better substance.  Strengths and weaknesses aside they were two of the strongest that the division showed.

 

 

”Okay, tommorow I will go really in depth on this but here is the basic skinny.  3 ways suck.  This is the best 3 way I have ever seen from spots to psych to heat.  Rey/Kidman basically act as a tag team early on, using that on Juvi and doing it well with good spots and smart work.  The match just clicked really well for me.  I would never think about putting it on a top whatever list but for content and structure in the horrible 3 way dance setting, I would point to this as the match I would want to base 3 ways around.  More later on this since this thread is so long and I have a few other things to do.”

 

I’ll await more detail.  I do agree that it was one of the better three ways though.

 

”Need to see that NOAH stuff.  I am liking what is going on with the NOAH Juniors in terms of quality and the new feud with Liger and Co.”

 

I go to tape sites every day waiting for that NOAH show to come in.  I really want to see Juvi/Marafuji and the Liger/Inoue tag, plus I want to see how well Kobashi worked with Nagata.  I have money put aside waiting for Kawada’s TC victory and that NOAH show.  Here’s hoping they were at least good.

 

”I think Jett is more than passable as a TV Title level worker.  His match on 3/19/01 with Disco on Nitro was not only watchable but also fun.  Plus he had the crowd support.”

 

Agreed.  This is what I was trying to get across.  I don’t like Jett as a Junior.  His match with Disco that you mentioned was more fun and better than all of the Junior matches I saw him in.

 

”Agreed to the highest degree.  But then again, I can't mope because I understand that WCW killed themselves with all the BS.  I can only hope something will come along soon that will be an alternative that isn't INDY based.”

 

Not as long as Vince has enough money to fuck around with small indys.  I don’t care if they get big because if they stay small Vince will eventually bury himself.  I don’t watch, but I do hear what happens when I hang out with my friends the next day and it doesn’t sound too pretty.  Jericho/HHH will probably be the first WWF match I’ve seen in months, just because I want to see how the two overrated net darlings do in that huge spotlight.

[Guest MRFTW]

"Fun is ok, I guess I just don’t like Jett and Funk as Cruisers."

 

Were they ever even considered ones by WCW?

 

I don't recall Funk ever being and since he was only around a few weeks the only thing I can remember Jett being defined as was that of just a new wrestler with some cool moves.

[Guest MrDanger]

1) No, because I can look past "favorites" in order to reveal truths.

 

2) Diehard WWF fans who believe that not only the is the WWF style of wrestling the best, but also is an "evolution" of sorts in the wrestling business.

 

3) maybe some people just like average wrestling covered by a few "crowd pleasing" WWF tactics.

 

4)That's the thing......we won't know it's impact until history comes.  That is why something like the 1/21/96 Samurai v Otani match was a MOTYC at the time and in the future became even more important because of the possible style it could have lead the Juniors too.

1) But you aren't saying the truths; you are simply stating your slightly strange opinions.  

 

2) If people prefer that style then who are you to tell them it's wrong?

 

3) Maybe some people just try to sound like an elitist but end up sounding bitter and pathetic.

 

4) The work alone makes it an outside MOTYC, most people who've seen the match would agree. If the match does go down as the birth of Marufuji then it only gets better because it has historical significance.

[Guest MrDanger]

Williams was off the charts in carrying Adam "I want to use Memphis Heel Tactics" Pierce to a great 8 minute match.  So much fun mat work........gotta love those Carny British fellas.

Carny? The last worker to graduate from the Carny scene over here was William Regal and even that was over 15 years ago. That sector of the industry is all but dead.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"1) But you aren't saying the truths; you are simply stating your slightly strange opinions."

 

Let's take a look at this.  It is TRUE that Jericho, a face, pulled the ref out of the ring and it is true that Benoit, at one point late in the match, got a nearfall though he was not the legal man.  Opinions?  Facts?  What's the difference?  Last time I watched the match, it wasn't a "slightly strange opinion" that Jericho did what he did.  

 

"2) If people prefer that style then who are you to tell them it's wrong?"

 

I am not telling them they can't like it, but I can voice the faults of that style of wrestling and say why one is superior.  

 

"3) Maybe some people just try to sound like an elitist but end up sounding bitter and pathetic."

 

You have cracked the code.  That is exactly what I was trying to do.  

 

"4) The work alone makes it an outside MOTYC, most people who've seen the match would agree. If the match does go down as the birth of Marufuji then it only gets better because it has historical significance."

 

The work alone is good, fun, and watchable.  It is hardly a MOTYC based on pure work alone.  I like the match.  I still do.  But MOTYC means it reaches a level so high that only MOTY's can beat them.  I don't know what that means to you, but to me it means the match has to be absolutely fantastic.  

 

When Keith and all the WWF minnons start throwing out ***** for average to good WWF main events and such, it means nothing to me.  So maybe I don't know how you judge your ratings.  To me, ****1/2 and up is a MOTYC.  Anything 4 and over is worth getting ASAP.  *** and up is something that I should probably see but no rush, unless it is on the higher end of ***.

 

I would put the 3/2 match in the ***3/4-**** range.  It was well worked, stiff, had good moves, good heat, but failed to bring anything new to the table.  I think that the T2P guys, though still green and just working through the match with really no direction yet, brought new stuff to the table in terms of mat work that not only made sense, but looked cool as all hell.

 

If I am making a evolution of the Juniors comp, I would put the following on in terms to see Juniors grow.

 

Liger/Sano feud - good old Mid South hate with good moves and a terrific story.  This is a step beyong what DK/TM did.....and please pardon my ignorance as my Takada viewings from 85-88 are still very limited so I can't comment on how we helped revolutionize the Juniors.

 

4/92 Liger v Samurai - the height of high spot Liger and the last really "Mid South" hate feeling match that was a high end MOTYC.  This took Liger and Sano to the next level with a new level of moves with an even tighter string of psychology.  

 

4/94 Pegasus v Sasuke - the next big step forward and much bigger than the Liger/Sammy step from Liger/Sano.  I don't have enough time to really say how perfect this match could possibly be.

 

3/16/96 Rey Jr. v Juvi - breath taking, yet so sound that this is my favorite Juniors match ever in terms of build.  It has a shitty last 2-3 minutes but up until that point, I haven't a complaint.

 

3/17/96-2/9/97 Liger v Otani - the last real evolution I have seen from Juniors in terms of innovation, story, psych, and sensible moves.  Throw in the 1/21 Sammy v Otani and the 8/4/ Dragon v Otani to this group and you have what I think is the height of the Juniors that will not be surpassed for a long time.

 

So, going against the last big group, Marifuji v Hosh doesn't make any advancement in story, psych, and innovation in a sensible means.  It followed that same pattern of Junior work from mid 1997-2002.......good work, lots of great moves, usually lousy to average psych, and nothing new to advance the genre.

 

Tim

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"Carny? The last worker to graduate from the Carny scene over here was William Regal and even that was over 15 years ago. That sector of the industry is all but dead."

 

In reference to the Carny remark, Williams mat work is commonly referred to as "Carny" for the fact that it is so crazy and strange, yet so awesome that it is like the old Carny British stuff.  Maybe the sector is dead, but as long as Williams and James Mason continue to do that kind of stuff, and Johnny Saint is wrestling and training new wrestlers, that kind of freaky mat work will live on in someone.  Hell, just look at the T2P guys, in between the Pride Submissions and the Lucha/NJ Juniors work came that British Carny mat work.....so bizzare that it looks odd, but upon closer inspection, it not lonly looks cool but also makes sense.

 

Tim

[Guest MrDanger]

1) Let's take a look at this.  It is TRUE that Jericho, a face, pulled the ref out of the ring and it is true that Benoit, at one point late in the match, got a nearfall though he was not the legal man.  Opinions?  Facts?  What's the difference?  Last time I watched the match, it wasn't a "slightly strange opinion" that Jericho did what he did.  

 

 

2) I am not telling them they can't like it, but I can voice the faults of that style of wrestling and say why one is superior.  

 

 

3) The work alone is good, fun, and watchable.  It is hardly a MOTYC based on pure work alone.  I like the match.  I still do.  But MOTYC means it reaches a level so high that only MOTY's can beat them.  I don't know what that means to you, but to me it means the match has to be absolutely fantastic.  

 

I would put the 3/2 match in the ***3/4-**** range.  It was well worked, stiff, had good moves, good heat, but failed to bring anything new to the table.  I think that the T2P guys, though still green and just working through the match with really no direction yet, brought new stuff to the table in terms of mat work that not only made sense, but looked cool as all hell.

1) I was actually referring to the point where you continually claim that the ending ruined the match, that my friend is simply an opinion.

 

2) And who are you to clarify which style is superior? It all comes down to opinions and you have an annoying habit of passing of your opinion as fact, well that's my personal view anyway.

 

3) That's where we really differ. Personally I have about a half dozen men's matches that I considered a serious MOTYC for 2001, Marufuji vs Hoshikawa sneaks onto that short list. A match for me doesn't have to be a genre changing classic to be considered a MOTYC or MOTY for that matter. Shoot me for it.

[Guest MrDanger]

In reference to the Carny remark, Williams mat work is commonly referred to as "Carny" for the fact that it is so crazy and strange, yet so awesome that it is like the old Carny British stuff.  Maybe the sector is dead, but as long as Williams and James Mason continue to do that kind of stuff, and Johnny Saint is wrestling and training new wrestlers, that kind of freaky mat work will live on in someone.  

That style is technically classed as European. Actual Carny matches don't really feature the wacky submission moves that everybody creams their pants for these days, it's basically a glorified amateur wrestling style carry job with the odd basic submission thrown in.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"3) That's where we really differ. Personally I have about a half dozen men's matches that I considered a serious MOTYC for 2001, Marufuji vs Hoshikawa sneaks onto that short list."

 

MOTYC, for me, has to be a match that is either really great or really really good and has so many other good features that they all add up to great.  There is no perfect system to measure this other than by personal opinion.  But I tend to see more ***1/2-****1/4 matches for 2001 than I would compared to ****1/2 on up (MOTYC).  

 

Take for example, 1996.  So many great Juniors matches happened that year.  I can name 12 that would be **** or higher in my book that were all great in some individual respect.  Of those 12, I would say that the 1/21 Sammy/Otani, 3/16 Rey v Juvi, 3/17 Liger v Otani, 8/4 Dragon v Otani, and 11/24 Rey Jr. v Dragon are all MOTYC.  Then you have the 3/20 Pegasus v Otani, 6/11 Pegasus v BT, 6/12 BT v Liger, 8/5 Sasuke v Dragon, 12/26 Dragon v Malenko matches are all ****+ but all fall short of MOTYC.  

 

So when I look at Hosh/Marifuji and compare them to non MOTYC but ***+ matches from 1996, I see that match falling short of each and every one of those matches.  So in my mind, when I compare them, the Hosh/Marifuji falls into that ***3/4-**** range because it is not better than any of those matches but is not necessarily worst than the worst match I listed above (which would be the 8/5 Sasuke/Dragon match IMO).      

 

"A match for me doesn't have to be a genre changing classic to be considered a MOTYC or MOTY for that matter. Shoot me for it."

 

Agreed, but I have seen Hosh v Marifuji done many times since 1998 in the forms of different matches.  So I say once again, good match that I liked, but no different from any of the other 4 star Junior matches.

 

Tim

[Guest Brian]

Tim, I was wondering what your thoughts are on the Steiner/Harts match in 1994 because you mention the last great US tag was in 1991? I totally understand what you're talking about in regards to stars, as people throw them out a lot easier. What was your MOTY in 1996, out of curiosity?

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"Tim, I was wondering what your thoughts are on the Steiner/Harts match in 1994 because you mention the last great US tag was in 1991?"

 

The match is okay.  I have only seen it once and in fair video quality so that sometimes hurts matches.  But from what I saw of the work, nothing really impressed me to the level that I would call it a MOTYC or even close to the 12/92 Windham/Pillman v Douglas/Steamboat which is the closest US tag match I can think of.  The Steiners didn't do much for me as a team.  Owen was always really good but Bret had some of that "Flair" in him, as in wrestling by the numbers a lot.  My favorite Steiner's tag match would be the one everyone knows about, the 5/91 vs. Stimg/Luger.  I tend to think the 3/91 v Sasaki/Hase lacks something, though I can't remember off the top of my head due to not having seen it in a while.

 

"I totally understand what you're talking about in regards to stars, as people throw them out a lot easier. What was your MOTY in 1996, out of curiosity?"

 

3/16/96 Rey Jr. v Juvi would be Junior match of the year of probably and overall MOTY but then that pesky 12/6/96 Misawa/Akiyama v Kawada/Taue tag pops up.  So technically, the 12/6 match is my MOTY but the 3/16/96 Juvi v Rey Jr. is definetly Junior MOTY and a close 2nd to the 12/6 tag.

 

The Rey v Juvi match is something so amazing that if it had an ending, it would be top 10 of the 1990's worldwide.  That was a special night with two special wrestlers.  I can't priase this match enough.

 

BTW, Mr. Danger, I was wondeirng what your 12 MOTYC for 2001 were just to see if I didn't see anything as my 2001 viewing of tapes for the year has been slow since I have been going back in time and watching more of the great stuff I missed.  Thanks.

 

Tim

[Guest Loss4Words]

"Let's take a look at this.  It is TRUE that Jericho, a face, pulled the ref out of the ring"

 

Yes. Traditional wrestling logic isn't compromised here though. The babyface always ATTEMPTS to wrestle by the rules, but there is nothing etched in stone that the babyface will always wrestle by the rules. Are you saying babyfaces shouldn't use closed fists too?

 

I've seen old Southern-style tag matches where the faces will clap behind the ref's back to make it sound like they made a tag just to annoy the heels. That's cheating, but it's also a babyface action.

 

It's the same thing as Roddy Piper using an eyepoke as a babyface. It's always been incredibly effective both as a comedy spot and as a way to show the heel how it feels to play on his own terms.

 

I've seen countless brawls where a babyface uses a chair. Yes, it's within the rules of the match, but it's against the fundamental principles of being a babyface by your standards.

 

In this match, Austin and HHH had cheated quite heavily through the entire body of the match. Austin caught Benoit, who was NOT the legal man (I'll get to that momentarily), with the stunner and covered for two AFTER Benoit already had Austin covered for three. Jericho, tired of trying to play by the rules and being a victim of cheating, bad officiating and just seeing his partner cover Austin for a three-count, pulls the referee out of the ring to make sure the injustice doesn't occur. It's perfectly acceptable within the rules of wrestling for a babyface to use the heel's heel tactics against him.

 

"and it is true that Benoit, at one point late in the match, got a nearfall though he was not the legal man."

 

Austin got a nearfall on Benoit and Austin was the legal man. Are you referring to the spot where Austin covered Benoit after the stunner? If you're referring to the attempted pin after the swandive, the ref wasn't there to make the count, so it doesn't matter anyway. The fact that the ref was counting while Austin covered Benoit is a flaw indeed and does make the match something less than perfect, I'll grant you that. But you could argue that as the ONLY flaw in the entire match, and it's a minute enough detail that it doesn't detract from the match in any way, ESPECIALLY since the crowd bought the near-fall.

[Guest MrDanger]

MOTYC, for me, has to be a match that is either really great or really really good and has so many other good features that they all add up to great.  There is no perfect system to measure this other than by personal opinion.  But I tend to see more ***1/2-****1/4 matches for 2001 than I would compared to ****1/2 on up (MOTYC).  

 

Take for example, 1996.  So many great Juniors matches happened that year.  I can name 12 that would be **** or higher in my book that were all great in some individual respect.  Of those 12, I would say that the 1/21 Sammy/Otani, 3/16 Rey v Juvi, 3/17 Liger v Otani, 8/4 Dragon v Otani, and 11/24 Rey Jr. v Dragon are all MOTYC.  Then you have the 3/20 Pegasus v Otani, 6/11 Pegasus v BT, 6/12 BT v Liger, 8/5 Sasuke v Dragon, 12/26 Dragon v Malenko matches are all ****+ but all fall short of MOTYC.  

 

So when I look at Hosh/Marifuji and compare them to non MOTYC but ***+ matches from 1996, I see that match falling short of each and every one of those matches.  So in my mind, when I compare them, the Hosh/Marifuji falls into that ***3/4-**** range because it is not better than any of those matches but is not necessarily worst than the worst match I listed above (which would be the 8/5 Sasuke/Dragon match IMO).      

 

"A match for me doesn't have to be a genre changing classic to be considered a MOTYC or MOTY for that matter. Shoot me for it."

 

Agreed, but I have seen Hosh v Marifuji done many times since 1998 in the forms of different matches.  So I say once again, good match that I liked, but no different from any of the other 4 star Junior matches.

 

Tim

It's time to agree to disagree. We both have different views, I think Hosh vs Marufuji is an outside MOTYC and you don't.

[Guest Rev]

Quoth Danny, re: The Steiners.

I tend to think the 3/91 v Sasaki/Hase lacks something, though I can't remember off the top of my head due to not having seen it in a while.

Willingness to make your opponent look credible, psychology, selling. Lotsa problems with this match on the Steiners side. Almost a squash.