Is Japan wrestling really any better

[Guest Kid Kablam]

I want this in general cause in the puro folder there wouldn't be much argument. I hear from a lot of people that Puro is better, but then again I here from lots of people that French films are better (I've never felt that they are any better, just different). Anyway, is Puro any better or is that the opinion of smarkier than thous and self loathing Americans? I kind of see it as they have plenty of crap themselves but we don't see all of the shit. We only see the good stuff, so we assume that everything they do is better. Again I haven't seen much Puro, and really the stuff I watch involves people who later moved onto North America (Pegesus Kid, Black Tiger Dynamite kid's stuff in Japan.) So... discuss.

[Guest razazteca]

its just a matter of opinion but I do see the general ideal that All Japan is the greatest promotion in the world.

 

people mark out for different styles

[Guest godthedog]

it's all just a matter of taste & who prefers which style. you'll have to get some good puro & find out for yourself. but i will say that the best of puro is more realistic than the best of north america. to me, it depends on whether you like your wrestling more realistic or stylized.

[Guest saturnmark4life]

exactly. All down to taste. I love what little puro i've seen for different reasons to why i love (most) american wrestling. You get the feeling you're watching something special with a lot of puro shows, maybe just because it's treated as more 'real'.

[Guest jimmy no nose]

If you want to see some guys go out and wrestle then puro is the better thing to watch. If you want to see more of a story-oriented wrestling show with more gimmicks and what not then North American stuff is better. I myself prefer North American wrestling, maybe just because it's more easily accessible, but I still watch a lot of puro whenever I get a chance.

[Guest papacita]

I haven't seen too much puro, but I like what I've seen, because it seems like in North America, wrestlers hold a lot of stuff back and don't give you everything they're capable of. I never got that sense in any of the puro matches I've seen.

[Guest J*ingus]

Heh, papa, just find a few late-90's Keiji Muto matches, and you'll see some world-class holding back soon enough.

 

It is a matter of taste, no matter what the puro elitists say. They insist that wrestling is a science, and that they are RIGHT and all you who disagree are WRONG. Even within the bounds of puro, they're like this. Hey, if I like Kobashi better than Kawada (and I do), you don't have to jump down my goddamned throat screaming about Kobashi's bad selling and how Kawada carries a match better. I mean, fuck off, it's my entertainment, it's up to me to decide what entertains me and what doesn't.

 

Sorry if I got off on a bit of a rant there, but I can't stand the puroists who are so anti-American wrestling that they can't admit that The Rock might be better than a helluva lot of Japanese stars. (Tiger Jeet Singh, anyone? How 'bout Giant Baba? Or even Inoki, most of Rock's PPV matches over the past two years smoke 90% of everything Antonio ever did in the ring.)

[Guest cynicalprofit]

All about the Puro. They dont relie on the entertainment crap as much as america and by doing so, they devote more to matches, while there is some buildup, its not as bad as oh say, having your mop ground up into a woodchipper. That is why I like Puro more. And over in Japan, they treat wrestling with respect, Vince will and has pissed all over wrestling history for a dollar. And he covers up anything he doesnt like or agree with, its not like that in Puro, atleast as far as I can tell.

 

And in Japan, you had promotions galore, not any more, but there was way more then the big 2 or 3. And there is a vast arsonel of tapes and styles to choose from in Puro, in American Wrestling, theres really only WWF style, and not WWF style.

 

That of course is just my opinon about it and it is a matter of presonal taste.

[Guest bob_barron]

The Puro I've seen hasn't been that great- The matches are good but it just doesn't impress me

[Guest PlatypusFool]

*stays out of argument due to bias *

 

But seriously folks, it is indeed just down to opinion. I'm personally a WRESTLING fan, in that I enjoy all wrestling. I've just got bored with what the WWE spews out because it's all the same, with very occasional spurts of goodness. If you actually watch it, the vast majority of the matches wrestled over the past few years are all the same, just with one wrestlers spots changed for another wrestlers. I watch puroresu for variety, as there is a huge mix of styles wrestled in Japan, and the wrestlers do so much more in the actual matches to tell stories rather than outside the matches, making them more interesting, IMO.

[Guest XdojimeX]

"It is a matter of taste, no matter what the puro elitists say. They insist that wrestling is a science, and that they are RIGHT and all you who disagree are WRONG."

 

 

"Even within the bounds of puro, they're like this. Hey, if I like Kobashi better than Kawada (and I do), you don't have to jump down my goddamned throat screaming about Kobashi's bad selling and how Kawada carries a match better."

 

So if somebody has an opinion and actually takes care to lay out the reasoning behind that opinion contrary to yours...it's jumping down your goddamned throat? I'm missing point A to point B here...

 

"I mean, fuck off, it's my entertainment, it's up to me to decide what entertains me and what doesn't."

 

If you're that insecure about what entertains you the wrestling fan that a vocal consensus could actually threaten you enough to poorly generalize and stereotype a group of wrestling fans with such misguided vitriol, I think you might be better off not attempting to discuss the subject with these Puro-heathens you speak of at all.

 

"Sorry if I got off on a bit of a rant there, but I can't stand the puroists who are so anti-American wrestling that they can't admit that The Rock might be better than a helluva lot of Japanese stars. (Tiger Jeet Singh, anyone? How 'bout Giant Baba? Or even Inoki, most of Rock's PPV matches over the past two years smoke 90% of everything Antonio ever did in the ring.)"

 

Please. How many fans do you see going to the wall for fucking Tiger Jeet anyway? Sure every fanbase has it's kooky right-wingers, no need to bunch everybody all in the same canoe. Even taking ratio into account compared to the Vince McMahon Cocksucking Club going on 2+ decades now the extra wacky Puro-philes you find on the gamefaqs board and the like are very much the minority.

 

Oh and Inoki's two best matches smoke Rock's two best matches.

 

Ya know, beer snobs suck twice as much as wine snobs because at least wine snobs aren't disingenuous hypocritics about their snobbery. They embrace being hateful elitist pricks, while beer snobs just have their bitter beer face to go along with the hate.

[Guest The Metal Maniac]

I must say that watching Puro takes a LOT of getting used to. Like, stuff happens within the context of Puro matches theat just doesn't happen here.

 

For example, in NOAH/AJPW styles, they seem to wrestle in such a way that every single move counts. So if Misawa hits two tiger drivers, a TD '91, and 3 roaring elbows, but pins Kobashi after a back elbow strike, then it wasn't the back elbow that won: It was everything Misawa did leading up to it that won the match.

 

You don't seem to get that sense in North America. When Austin hits the Stunner, it's the stunner that wins. A finisher here FINISHES a match. In Japan, it's not always like that.

 

But that's a matter of personal preference as well. I mean, I find it tends to be anti-climatic (I mean, they hit the most head-dropping move of all time, but finish with a brainbuster?) but hey, someone else might not.

[Guest Anorak]

I mean, fuck off, it's my entertainment, it's up to me to decide what entertains me and what doesn't.

Couldn't agree more.

 

I seriously doubt Jingus or many other fans are 'insecure' about their wrestling preferences, they are just tired of being chastised for having their own individual tastes.

 

No wrestling fans are stereotyped more than those who prefer the American style, especially those who swear by the WWF.

 

Why anyone would resent anybody elses enjoyment of a different wrestling product is really beyond me. The sad thing is that there are a few people that actually do.

[Guest KanadianKrusty]

I totally agree with Anorak and Jingus, WE know what we like, not the elitists

 

and yes, we're looking at YOU, Jubuki and Wolverine

[Guest Youth N Asia]

I like some Japanese wrestling...but with stuff like AJPW I can only watch the very best and be entertained...Misawa/Kobashi or Misawa/Kawada can be very entertaining...but some of the lesser knowns bore me a little.

 

Most Toryumon and NJPW jr heavyweights are very fun to watch.

[Guest XdojimeX]

I mean, fuck off, it's my entertainment, it's up to me to decide what entertains me and what doesn't.  

Couldn't agree more.

 

I seriously doubt Jingus or many other fans are 'insecure' about their wrestling preferences, they are just tired of being chastised for having their own individual tastes.

 

- Chastised? Oy vey.

 

No wrestling fans are stereotyped more than those who prefer the American style, especially those who swear by the WWF.

 

- Last time I checked WWF fans made up the far majority of the english speaking internet. That guerilla fringe of Dr. Wagner fans out there must be pretty loud eh?

 

Why anyone would resent anybody elses enjoyment of a different wrestling product is really beyond me.

 

- Resenting your enjoyment my ass. Enjoy whatever the fuck you want. It's just discussion. If I think you have shitty taste in pro-wrestling so what? Grow a sac already.

 

Attack of the Puro-fascists on Fox Friday!

[Guest TheHulkster]

Heh, papa, just find a few late-90's Keiji Muto matches, and you'll see some world-class holding back soon enough.

 

It is a matter of taste, no matter what the puro elitists say. They insist that wrestling is a science, and that they are RIGHT and all you who disagree are WRONG. Even within the bounds of puro, they're like this. Hey, if I like Kobashi better than Kawada (and I do), you don't have to jump down my goddamned throat screaming about Kobashi's bad selling and how Kawada carries a match better. I mean, fuck off, it's my entertainment, it's up to me to decide what entertains me and what doesn't.

 

Sorry if I got off on a bit of a rant there, but I can't stand the puroists who are so anti-American wrestling that they can't admit that The Rock might be better than a helluva lot of Japanese stars. (Tiger Jeet Singh, anyone? How 'bout Giant Baba? Or even Inoki, most of Rock's PPV matches over the past two years smoke 90% of everything Antonio ever did in the ring.)

I'm in the same boat when it comes to Kobashi and the Rock.

[Guest Special K]

While I like Puro a LOT, and prefer it to American wrestling, I often think that many puro fans, including myself are unfairly biased because we're taking the very best that puro has to offer: mid-early 90's, and compare it to all the American wrestling we've seen. Just like anything else, really bad puro is REALLY BAD, sometimes more so because a really bad match can take up a half an hour.

On the other hand, simply being able to have the opportunity to see so many great wrestler flourish in half hour-hour long matches, and to see a stiffer, more realistic style is worth it.

 

And people can really enjoy good AJPW without analyzing it to fucking death. My friends do, and I generally can enjoy a great match if one or two moves seem out of place.

[Guest Crippler15]

I think puro is better for the simple reason that my favorite puro matches are the 6/9/95 and the 6/3/94 matches that everyone loves. IMO those matches defintely had better moves and psychology than the Flair/Steamboat matches and also had more hatred and a better story than the Austin/Hart and Hart/Hart matches. You really cant compare gimmick matches to it, but i would rather see some on knock the crap out of each other in a totally safe way 1 time than to see Shawn and razor bumb with the ladder a 100 times.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

In general, Puro is better wrestling wise, IMO.

 

I dunno about The Rock being better than Inoki, coz i haven't seen Inoki in his prime from the 70s or whatever.

 

I agree about elitists (maybe not the "elitists" named earlier). People like that can spoil it sometimes. I mean, why be so negative about wrestling?

[Guest DragonflyKid]

For example, in NOAH/AJPW styles, they seem to wrestle in such a way that every single move counts. So if Misawa hits two tiger drivers, a TD '91, and 3 roaring elbows, but pins Kobashi after a back elbow strike, then it wasn't the back elbow that won: It was everything Misawa did leading up to it that won the match.

 

You don't seem to get that sense in North America. When Austin hits the Stunner, it's the stunner that wins. A finisher here FINISHES a match. In Japan, it's not always like that.

 

But that's a matter of personal preference as well. I mean, I find it tends to be anti-climatic (I mean, they hit the most head-dropping move of all time, but finish with a brainbuster?) but hey, someone else might not.

 

 

I love the assortment of stiff strikes, all the kicks, lariats and elbows/forearms can be delievered and countered in many different ways, something the WWE style of kick, stomp, kick, stomp, can't. The variety of strikes in puroresu is great and made better by the stiffness.

 

The WWE style gets too repetitive wrestling-wise but I still enjoy the WWE product as a whole for different reasons that I love puro.

 

I like how the accumulated punishment affects how what moves can be hit and what moves will eventually put an opponent out. When Misawa hits a tiger driver and a rolling elbow or another big move which don't get the win then ends it with a running elbow smash I don't find it anti-climactic. I enjoy the near falls that come from that type of match system because one doesn't know on what move the finish will come by. It has been compared to a boxer who can withstand a big hit early in the fight but the same boxer after taking jabs and hooks and punishment throughout a bout can't take the same big hit late.

[Guest wolverine]

"and yes, we're looking at YOU, Jubuki and Wolverine"

 

Dude, don't bring me into this shit. It's a miracle that I even saw this post, since I never go to this forum, but if you want to say something about my posts, do it where I'll actually read it.

 

BTW, what the fuck did I ever say to YOU that pissed you off so much as to start questioning how I post, not only here, but on other boards? Secondly, WHO are you? Have I responded to any of your posts more than once - ever?

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

"Puro" is about a vague a term as you can get. NJPW Juniors, AJPW, Toryumon, what's orange and the apple that's getting compared here?

 

Personally, I enjoy the classic North American stuff more, essentially because I'm more familiar with it. Bad WWF/WCW is bad, but sometimes in a funny sort of way, when bad puro (especially some of the crummy heavyweights) is just horrid with no redeeming value. I can laugh at a Giant Gonzales match, just because the strikes and moves and whatnot are just so obviously fake and lame. But to watch Rusher Kimura and Family Gundan or someone lumber around...ye gods.

 

Bad WWF/WCW is stupid. Bad puro is boring.

 

Still, if someone asked me which match I think is better between say...

 

The 6/3/94 Misawa/Kawada classic we all know and love,

-or-

Bret Hart/Steve Austin from 96 Survivor Series.

 

my answer would depend on my mood, at this moment, 6/3/94, although that could change by the time I hit the "Add reply" button.

 

When people say they watch puro because they're only interested in the wrestling aspect of things, I think they should really check their tape collection, because on all those old WWF and WCW shows, there are some real gems that are executed every bit as well as the great japanese stuff, and it's in English, too.

[Guest Breetai]

So if Misawa hits two tiger drivers, a TD '91, and 3 roaring elbows, but pins Kobashi after a back elbow strike, then it wasn't the back elbow that won: It was everything Misawa did leading up to it that won the match.

if Misawa hits two tiger drivers, a TD '91, and 3 roaring elbows, Kobashi would be legally DEAD.

[Guest KanadianKrusty]

"and yes, we're looking at YOU, Jubuki and Wolverine"

 

Dude, don't bring me into this shit. It's a miracle that I even saw this post, since I never go to this forum, but if you want to say something about my posts, do it where I'll actually read it.

 

BTW, what the fuck did I ever say to YOU that pissed you off so much as to start questioning how I post, not only here, but on other boards? Secondly, WHO are you? Have I responded to any of your posts more than once - ever?

Ok, maybe I just hate Jubuki for saying that we are wrong on a thing that is a matter of opinion. But i've always thought that you and him are two "main" elitists, or at least the ones who are posting the most here...

[Guest The Mountie]

Puro dudes, what would you recommend as the ideal tape to convert someone to Japanese wrestling?

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

My fav. American wrestling is the better old NWA stuff from the 80s. Which is why I think early 90s All Japan was the best heavyweight action produced, because it was like the old NWA style, except with more big moves, stiffer brawling, deeper storyline, and a much faster pace. And even the low and mid card matches from that era was phenominal.

 

But of course all that ended in the mid 90s. Though the Main Events from 94-97 were amazing, the mid card fell apart.

 

The modern WWE pretty much bores me to death, and I don't watch it much anymore.

 

I'am not a big fan of the Juniors in Japan or America. Black Tiger(Eddy), Lyger, Beniot, Malenko, Ohtani had some great matches, but I don't think thier best is as good as the heavyweight's best.

 

So IMO, Japan's best is better than American's best. But I haven't seen everything, so I can't judge overall which is better.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Puro dudes, what would you recommend as the ideal tape to convert someone to Japanese wrestling?

Pretty much anyone will say 1994 The Super J-Cup, it's got Benoit, Malenko, Lyger, The Great Sasuke, Hayabusa, Ohtani, and some other names, but it has a ***** finals, and a ****3/4 semi final, which is only lacking a 1/4* due to a blown spot. Phenomenal show. The 95 version is pretty good as well. ****1/2 Benoit/Jericho match. Nab those two shows first, as they've got lots of American names, and it introduces you to many of the talented Junior Heavies. All Japan is pretty much love it or hate it. Get some early-mid 90's stuff so you can form an opinon on their better product.

 

Any tape trader worth their salt can get you the J-cups.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

95 is the best intro to puro in my opinion. Alright, some of the matches on the 94 version are better than some on the 95 show, but the 95 show has variety. The 94 J Cup will bore someone who has never watched puro before to death if they try and watch it the whole way through, whereas the 95 version will not.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

The 94 J Cup will bore someone who has never watched puro before to death if they try and watch it the whole way through, whereas the 95 version will not.

I don't know about that, the 94 was the first puro tape I ever saw and it had me hook line and sinker. Varies from person to person I guess.