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What is the greatest WWE/WWF match ever?

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Guest RavishingRickRudo

Damn, now you are goin ta make me watch both matches again!

 

The near falls were overrated and their 'state-of-the-art' counters and reversals are just common-place today. Not to mention the finish was screwie with Steele and IMO a bit anti-climatic. It's been a few months since last I watched it, but I found that it didn't age all that well and was pretty underwhelmed by it all. But I will watch the match again to make sure.

 

With the influence of Lucha Libre and the incredible athleticism of wrestlers today, to say that what Savage/Steamboat did back that can compare is just near-sighted.

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Guest BionicRedneck

Don't mention it, ChUnK.

 

Oh, and Steamboat/Savage still rocks. Its not what you do...its how you do it, thats why its still good today.

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Guest DawnBTVS

Hell In A Cell

Undertaker vs Shawn Michaels

 

Just such a fun ass kicking to watch and HBK made Taker look like a hellacious demon too.

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As far as hardcore mathches go i really enjoyed Mankind Vs Rock at Royal Rymble 1999(i think)

 

Where Mick went through the electrical cables and took about 13 chair shots!

 

Classic!

 

ChUnK!

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Guest RickyChosyu

I really, really dislike HHH/Austin. Pretty much everything I hate about WWF brawls is covered in that one match, at some point.

 

When you guys say Hart/Austin, you really should specify which meating you're talking about, since both are contenders for best WWF match ever. In my opinion, Survivor Series '96 is better, even if it wasn't more important. Importance doesn't always equall greatness, as anyone who has actually SEEN Hogan/Andre will know.

 

The Harts, in their WM 10 match, did more things right than most wrestlers do in their entire careers. Perfect execution, pacing, selling, storytelling, and the kind of vulnerability that Bret always hinted at, but never played upon. Hart/Austin is close, in execution, but quite up there in substance. Benoit/Austin worked on many levles, and may have even been up to the levle of the previous two matches. I'll have to re-watch some of these to be sure.

 

And the Iron Man Matches (both of them) aren't even close on the list, unless you thin more time and more stuff = better match. Rock/HHH was a tribute to Hunter's longevity, but the selling isn't consistant, and neither is the direction of the match. Hart/Michaels is just very borring with mat segments that didn't go anywhere with both guys refusing to sell long-term damage and lots of high spots mixed in for effect. Not enough substance for how long they spent getting to where they were going.

 

Tajiri/Psichosis was a fun, fun match, but it was blatantly without any real depth or storyline other than one-upsmanship. It's harmless fun, but it shouldn't be going anywhere near a "best matches" list.

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Guest Jobber of the Week

Kurt vs Shane from KOTR, although Eddy/RVD ladder match comes close.

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Guest RavishingRickRudo

Oh it isn't, I am just saying in terms of 'technical' work (holds, counter holds, difficult transitions, etc) it was much better (in that context) than Savage/Steamboat.

 

I am going to have to watch all these matches again. I was REALLY underwhelmed the last time I saw Hart/Hart WM X, and found that it was 'all over the page'. The thing that amazed me the most about that match was the crowd and how well they responded to everything thrown at them. Maybe someone can guide me on the match, cause I am just not seeing it.

 

Austin/Hart Survivor Series 96 vs. Austin/Hart Wm 13 is like the 'age-old question' of what makes a wrestling match great. The SS96 match was 'technically' better as in it offered more holds and variety while the WM match was just a straight up brawl/fight. The storytelling elements were far superior in the Wm match but it depended so much upon the feud itself to 'work', while the SS96 match can be viewed on it's own and the psychology is more apparent. It's a tough call, but I still would place the WM 13 match above simply because of the dynamics of the story and its influence.

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Jobber of the weel => Good call, the KOTR match between shane and angle was really good. Not only where the whole spots through the scenery good, but the ending move was amazing!

 

ChUnK!

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Guest RickyChosyu

The fact that Angle/Shane is on a list of "Greatest WWF Matches Ever" is just about the most dubiously sad thing I've seen in a while.

 

Hart/Hart needs to viewed as a battle for dominance that takes the "I know all of your moves" storyline beyond anything I've seen before. Right off the bat, it's established that they can't use their usual tools for winning, and thus whoever can out-work and out-think their opponent will win. That's the general gist of that match.

 

Hart/Austin from '96 is more about Hart's attempt to prove himself to Austin, and to everyone, while Austin wanted to out-wrestler and embaris Bret to prove himself and that he really was everything he claimed to be. '97 is more dramatic and had more influence, but the execution just bothers me and the gripes I have with it keep it from out-doing '96.

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Guest bps "The Truth" 21

"Hart/Hart needs to viewed as a battle for dominance that takes the "I know all of your moves" storyline beyond anything I've seen before. Right off the bat, it's established that they can't use their usual tools for winning, and thus whoever can out-work and out-think their opponent will win. That's the general gist of that match."

 

The best thing about this storyline is the ending of the match.

 

Bret goes for the victory roll, a move I had only seen him use once (to beat Bam Bam Bigelow to win the KOTR the year before) but Owen has it scouted and sits back for a clean win.

 

Perfect ending.

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Guest Downhome
It's not one the greatest, but I was watchin Savage/Warrior WM 7 again the other day, and it's a fuckin great match. Great surreal story (C'mon, you loved when Warrior was questioning his mortality and purpose and shit ;) ), a wonderful carry-job by Savage, drama, a definitive ending (not cheap shit, warrior beats Savages ass into the ground), and to top it all off the Miss Elizabeth tear-fest. Plus, Sherri is a fuckin tramp. I don't care how much clothing and how much make up you put on Terri, she isn't a TENTH of what Sherri was in the skank dept.

I thought I was one of the only guys to actually appriciate that match.

 

I can't even answer this question btw, as I have far too many matches to name, and could never narrow it down to just one.

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Guest cabbageboy

There are two different types of storylines that are conveyed by a match. One is the ultra dramatic type storyline such as the Warrior/Macho match. Everything was on the line, etc. Then there is the more subtle storyline like the Harts match (I know all your moves, and so on).

 

For my money the best match that has combined both the out of the ring story and in ring story was Bret/Bulldog. I never found the Owen/Bret overall storyline to be all that compelling.

 

Besides, I'm a Bulldog mark.

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Guest Austin3164life

Best Pure Brawl: Triple H vs. Cactus Jack (RR 2000)

Best Pure Technique: Steve Austin vs. Bret Hart (Survivor Series 1996)

Best All-Arounder: Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart (WM 10)

Best Storyteller: TIE. Austin/Hart (WM 13), DiBiase vs. Savage (WM 4).

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Guest Big McLargeHuge

My Vote: Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart - WrestleMania 10.

Ho...ly...Shit! The best wrestling match the WWF has EVER put on. This may not have changed the course of history or marked a new era, but it fucking ruled. These two were just ON for the entire half hour. I can't even describe the beauty of this match.

Every single move performed in this match is executed to perfection. The heat was incredible. Owen could've picked his nose for the first five minutes and garnered more heel heat than anyone on the roster. Have you heard a crowd "oooh" a freakin' leg drop (not done by Hogan)?

I'm running out of ways to kiss this match's ass. To put to simple, it rocks.

 

I'm gonna go watch it again.

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Guest RickyChosyu

I believe you're refering to "a match that builds around a pre-existing storyline" and "a match that makes it's own storyline." There are many more types of matches, trust me. Basically, you're saying that Bulldog/Hart is best because Bulldog's IC title win had been built up forever, was in England (therefor giving it a good pre-existing storyline) but also had good in-ring storyline. That doesn't make the best, and, coincidently, it isn't the best. Owen/Bret was compelling because it stretched the capabilities of both men and showed that when push comes to shove, the man who knows the other man best is the victor. Bulldog/Hart attempted to create something like that, and it had a lot of similiar moments (the ending being the most obvious) but it didn't achieve that levle "Ok, I know counters to your counters to my counters" that Hart/Hart did, and purely speaking, it wasn't as good.

 

Personally, if you're going to rank brawls, Austin/Hart from '97 is the originial WWF Brawl that dwarfs every single one since then. That gets the duke in that category, hands down.

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Guest bps "The Truth" 21

How incredible is it that Bret and Austin can stake their claim on having the best brawl in the companies history...and an argument can be made that they also had the best "wrestling" match in the companies history?

 

Man...those guys were awesome.

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Guest RavishingRickRudo

I'll keep that stuff in mind when I watch it again, thanks.

 

The whole 'execution' of the WM 13 match is the fact that it has no real execution at all. And even though that might seem to be as much of a cop-out as 'trying to out due each other' it really is a fantastic story in terms of the context of the feud.

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Guest RickyChosyu

Personally, my favorite sequence in the match is when Bret clocks him with Ring Bell and Austin taps the gusher, only for Hart to attempt to Pilmanize him immediately afterwards. The way Austin just freaked out at the thought having that done to him (the way he had done so to Brian in '96) showed that he was vulnerable too, that maybe he didn't buy his own hype in the situation, and you can see that desperation when he gets up and clocks Bret with the chair to send him crashing down to the mat. Hart, on the other hand, showed that he had grown tired of the fans and what they expected of him, because they had treated him with the same indiference. So his desperation came when he didn't know how to soften Austin up enough to get him with the sharp shooter, and he had to resort to using weapons instead of the "clean" moves he had used before. When he finally does, and Austin passes out, that weariness on Bret's face is just priceless to me. Even though I don't think it's technically deserving of best WWF match of all time, it's moments like that which make it my personal favorite.

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Guest RavishingRickRudo

The fact that Hart had actually BECOME Austin in that match is what makes it. It was his hipocrisy which made the fans hate him, and it was Austins...lets say bluntness.... that made the fans love him. Austin was true to himself, he said straight up that he was going to screw you while Bret was more devious... Which really was the premise for Austin/Mcmahon.

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Guest RickyChosyu

Yep. When the final sequence begins, you can almost hear the fans saying "we knew you were the trully heroic one, Austin! You don't lie to us or claim to be something that you aren't! You fight for what you believe in and you never give up, and that's what true heroism is!!"

 

Austin fought because he believed in himself; Bret fought because he couldn't accept what he had become. Great feud, great match.

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Guest bps "The Truth" 21

It shouldn't be lost in this that the Mania 13 match led to some of the greatest TV in WWE history as well.

 

The Austin vs. Bret feud on Raw was awesome.

 

My personal favorite was when Bret had had surgery and was in a wheelchair, and Austin came out with a wheelchair and challenged him to a wheelchair match.

 

Awesome.

 

Plus...they had another good ppv match (with a crap ending) and were captains of the two teams in the 10 man tag that was real good.

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Guest BigTim2002

But seriously, did Ken Shamrock HAVE TO BE THE FUCKING REF IN THAT MATCH?

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Guest RickyChosyu

Oh, deffinately great TV. Austin attacking Bret in the ambulence is one of my all-time favorite moments. Austin/Michaels Vs. Owen/Bulldog was real good, and the ten man tag was just off-the charts. Just a ton of fun and definitely got the feel they were looking for.

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Guest RavishingRickRudo

I gotta watch 'Cause Stone Cold Said so' again, plus Calgary Stampede...

 

Anywho. There is a difference between 'greatest' and 'best', greatest involves external factors like influence, while Best involves more of a 'technical' rating.

 

What makes the 'best' wrestling match?

 

Wrestling is art, I think we can all agree on that. All Art tells stories.... That’s what makes them art. The best art tells a (emotionally) powerful story. How the story is told, be it in the most simple terms (say Hogan/Andre) or complex features (oh I dunno, Misawa/Kawada? Eh, not for this... Hart/Piper maybe?) also factors in on how ‘good’ the art is.

 

Wrestling is Sport, I think we can all agree on that (we could debate the finer points, ie no competition, but for the most part it’s a sport). The ‘best match’ in a sporting context is which has the superior ‘technical’ display. The amount of transitions in the match, the variety of moves, the difficulty of both transitions and various moves, the build, the psychology, etc all factor in....

 

So what I am basically saying is.... Should we judge Wrestling matches like they do figure skating? Technical and Artistic Merit? Can the two co-exist? Is it possible to have a 'great match' soley with a '10' in one catagory and a '0' in the other?

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Guest bps "The Truth" 21

yes.

 

because he was the perfect foil for Bret at the end.

 

People WANTED to see Shamrock vs. Hart after the match, but Bret walked away...causing the fans to boo him and complete the turn.

 

On top of that, Shamrock was someone who was physically intimidating to Bret, which was needed for the angle.

 

Plus...Shamrock did a great job, this was before he became watered down...he was perfect in the roll.

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Guest RavishingRickRudo

While I am not the biggest Shamrock fan (WHIP HIS ASS TITO!) his role was integral to the match. He was the authority figure that Austin and especially Hart rebelled against.

 

I will never forget the moment when Hart was workin on Austins leg, Austin started hobbling around and Shamrock asked if he wanted to quit and WHILE HOBBLING Austin managed to flip him off... Fantastic.

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Guest RickyChosyu

I remember that. Shamrock definitely was the a good foil for that role, and even if he is a footnote compared to the legend the match has created for itself, he did his job and he did it well.

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Guest Respect The 'Taker

60 Minute Iron Man Match - Triple H vs The Rock

 

Can't go past that one...

 

This has been the Taker Mark

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Guest RickyChosyu

You can't go past it in length, maybe...well, actually, even that's not true...

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