Pound for pound, who would you say is the...

[Guest Downhome]

Ok, first off, I can't contribute too much to this discussion, as I have not seen as much Puroresu as I know some of you guys have. Don't get me wrong, I have hundreds of hours of it, but I don't think I've seen enough, of all of the guys that are there, to really be able to say. So...

 

...that is why I'm starting this topic. For you guys to discuss, to help me and others choose some more stars over there to check out, and just to have some fun.

 

By "pound for pound greatest worker", I mean just that. Who do you feel is the greatest performer ever in Puroresu? Would you say Misawa, Kawada, Akiyama, Tiger Mask I, Inoki, Kobashi, etc...? Let's just discuss it, giving reasons why we say what we say, without turning it into a flame war, lol. I don't mean just Japanese guys, I am talking about ANYONE who has worked over there for a decent amount of time. Anyhow, let's get this topic started!

 

Sincerely,

...Downhome...

[Guest BionicRedneck]

From what i have seen, i would say Misawa. Simply because of the amount of 5* matches he has had.

[Guest DEAN RASMUSSEN]

Jaguar Yokota in a walk. Then Jumbo.

 

DEAN.

[Guest Grenouille]

My current pick would have to be Kawada, but I'd like to see more of Jumbo Tsuruta, to make more accurate pick since he's the only person I haven't seen enough of based on who I'd pick from.

[Guest Downhome]

Note:

 

I have never seen anything from Jumbo.

[Guest wolverine]

Note:

 

I have never seen anything from Jumbo.

Then you are missing out BIG TIME.

 

My pick is Kawada, simply because I haven't seen enough of Jumbo. However, Jumbo is #2 easily, just from the sample of late 80's/early 90's work I have.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I can't even begin to answer this either, because I would be forced to either give my opinion on what I've seen (Toyota, Liger, Kawada, ect.) or spout off names that everybody tends to throw around in topics like this (Jumbo, Hokuto, Destroyer, ect.), neither of which are part of the topic.

 

However, I do have a question about what exactly you're asking. By "greatest worker" do you mean "had the most great matches with the most people", "had the greatest match(es), period", "had the most great matches in the most varried styles" because it's really hard to tell with something like this. If you take a guy like Jumbo, who had something like a twenty-year peak, and then put him against someone like Misawa, who's career peak was half that at the very most, of course Jumbo is going to have more high-grade matches, but does that mean he was greater? I'm not asking who was greater, I'm asking what makes each wrestler great?

 

Just something to think about.

[Guest wolverine]

I can't even begin to answer this either, because I would be forced to either give my opinion on what I've seen (Toyota, Liger, Kawada, ect.) or spout off names that everybody tends to throw around in topics like this (Jumbo, Hokuto, Destroyer, ect.), neither of which are part of the topic.

 

However, I do have a question about what exactly you're asking. By "greatest worker" do you mean "had the most great matches with the most people", "had the greatest match(es), period", "had the most great matches in the most varried styles" because it's really hard to tell with something like this. If you take a guy like Jumbo, who had something like a twenty-year peak, and then put him against someone like Misawa, who's career peak was half that at the very most, of course Jumbo is going to have more high-grade matches, but does that mean he was greater? I'm not asking who was greater, I'm asking what makes each wrestler great?

 

Just something to think about.

You bring up a good point. This is a very difficult question to answer, because it requires looking at people from different eras, and trying compare them objectively, which is almost impossible for those in which you haven't seen enough of.

 

As a pure worker, I don't think I've seen anyone better than Jumbo Tsuruta, even from the limited footage I have. Does that mean he's been involved in more great matches than Misawa, Kawada or Liger? Maybe, maybe not. I don't have enough footage to judge. So taking that into consideration, it's hard for me to put him at #1, even though he's the person that probably deserves it the most based on longevity as a top worker.

 

BTW, why did you bring up Toyota? I'm curious because, quite frankly, I don't think she should be brought up in the same breath as the other names you tossed out. That's just my opinion based on what I've seen from her so-called "prime" years of 1992-1995. Realistically, she hadn't developed into a great worker until 2001 at least. She's better than ever now, but in viturally every match I've seen of hers between this period, I saw her opponent, whether it was Yamada, Aja, Kyoko, Hokuto, etc carry her and try to cover up her weaknesses, which were aplenty. She was completely out of control in 1995 (tons of highspots, very little psych, poor selling and lots of goofiness), similar to Kobashi to an extent, although the difference in work between the two can't be compared, because Kobashi was on another level. Actually she was closer to Sabu than anyone else. A glaring example of a poor performance in a big match situation would be her 3/26/95 title win against Aja, in which Aja dishes out a hell of a beating, but Toyota blows almost every spot in the match, including the finish. They had a much better match on 6/27/95, but once again it was Aja dictating the pace, instilling the psychology and calling the match - a trait that Toyota never really developed at the time, and one that is almost synonymous with the distinction of being one of the greatest workers of all-time. With overrated match, after overrated match she had in '95, I think it was quite mind blowing that she won the Observer Most Outstanding Wrestler award and Match of the Year (vs. Kyoko 5/7/95), not deserving either award by a long shot. This is the same year that Misawa was having legit classics on almost every Budokan show (discounting 10/25/95 of course), and the same year that Kawada carried Gary Albright of all people, to a MOTYC - showing his versatility in being able to work a match with someone who wrestled a totally different style than what All Japan was presenting, and doing it at an extremely high level. Needless to say, the true Most Outstanding Wrestler was evident on that night. And I really don't need to explain why 6/9/95 was the true Match of the Year, even if there are parts of that match that I dislike.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Hmm...well, as I said, I don't have nearly enough experience to judge something like this, and all the same, only have a limited amount of footage to judge someone like Toyota. My opinion is based on the limited material that I have to judge her on, and it mainly based on 8/15/92 Vs. Yamada, Hair Vs. Hair. While, like you said, it seemed that Yamada filled in a lot of the gaps, Toyota's blistering work and pure emotional desperation she portrayed in that match really, really impressed me. And while it wasn't mind-blowing, her 1/11/91 match Vs. Hokuto (who appeared to be legitimately injured) was also remarkable. I haven't seen Dream Rush, or any of her battles with Aja, or any of her 1995 work at all, for that matter. What I have seen has rubbed me the right way, but obviously I haven't seen enough, which was partly the reason I listed Toyota; most people don't think she belongs up there at all, but to someone who's seen a limited amount of great matches, she seems worthy.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Either Liger or Misawa.

[Guest Jubuki]

Yokota & Hokuto are miles beyond everyone else.

 

Keep in mind, the discussion is 'pound for pound,' and they're each a good 100+ pounds smaller than all these guys.

[Guest Black Tiger]

I'll break it down this way:

 

Best mat wrestler: Takashi Iizuka

Best flyer: Great Sasuke

Best striker: Toshiaki Kawada

Best pure wrestler: Jumbo Tsuruta

[Guest wolverine]

I'll break it down this way:

 

Best mat wrestler: Takashi Iizuka

Best flyer: Great Sasuke

Best striker: Toshiaki Kawada

Best pure wrestler: Jumbo Tsuruta

Kiyoshi Tamura, Volk Han, Mariko Yoshida, anybody?

 

Iizuka. Yeah, sure.

[Guest XdojimeX]

"Yokota & Hokuto are miles beyond everyone else."

 

I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to pre-90's joshi so forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't an abundance of Jaguar footage kind of hard to come by? And thus rather difficult to rate her at this level? Or is it more a "what footage we have to go on + word of mouth" type of thing? Even her most acclaimed performance is perserved on a mere 5 minute clip as I understand it.

 

Her legacy of students is pretty mind-numbing though.

 

---

 

"Best mat wrestler: Takashi Iizuka"

 

Que?

 

I actually like Iizuka a lot for some reason but a guy like Takada washing his dishes in the kitchen was probably a better mat worker then Iizzy.

[Guest Dangerous A]

I'll throw my 2 cents in and go Toshiaki Kawada. At least in terms of Men's Puro. I haven't seen enough Joshi to make an intelligent debate about them. But for psychology, strikes, selling, pacing, and just overall goodness, Kawada gets the nod.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

I would agree on Kawada.

 

His list of great performances seems to seriously outway every other person in the history of puroresu. He's had the right opponents to help him, true, but he has also carried many entire matches to **** or above on his own e.g vs. Albright.

 

His strikes are awesome, his build his frequently perfect, his mannerisms always tell the story of the match perfectly and he's just fucking cool. Plus, he's not an asshole in real life, and has values, morals and stuff, which can't hurt his case.

[Guest Jubuki]

Nah, there isn't really a dearth of Yokota footage. You just have to know where to look. Most people don't know where it's at, and that applies as much to her Jd' days as it does to the old AJW stuff.

[Guest BigTim2002]

It's gotta be Jumbo...nobody was as good as he was for as long as he wrestled. Then Kawada, then Misawa, then TM I, and then Lyger.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Yokota & Hokuto are miles beyond everyone else.

I would've mentioned Hokuto if I'd seen more of her stuff. She's amazing though. Never seen Yokota. Any Joshi fanatics care to recommend some of her stuff?

[Guest wolverine]

Take a look at Chris' website (airraidcrash.com). He reviewed the clip of her 8/22/85 match against Asuka. It's under Triple Shots.

 

I'd like to see that match myself. Right now, the best female wrestler I've ever seen is Hokuto by a mile, and it's hard for me to picture any other woman better than her at her peak.