A rant on people that call bands Sellouts

[Guest NoCalMike]

The Black Album turned Metallica from a complex Thrash band into the same old boring, "verse, chorus repeat" replicant band. They stopped doing cool as guitar solos and just got boring and lame. I don't particularly hate the Black album, but if you listen to it and then to any of their albums before it, there is a crystal clear difference.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

The black album definitely wasn't nu metal, I'd argue it being crap to go along with the rest of metallica's crap, but I can't stand that band, and never have, so don't say I'm jumping on a sellout bandwagon, I just think they suck. HOWEVER, I can say in good confidence that the presence of solos keeps them from being nu metal, but they've influenced nu metal dramatically, which is reason 65789 of 998376 why I can't stand them. ANYWAY.

 

There's a ton of great bands out there that have/are making a good living off of their music without chasing the big money and alienating their fanbase. We've mentioned Slayer, whose music HAS changed, believe it or not. Listen to Haunting the Chapel and listen to God Hates Us All back to back, I love 'em both, but they're waaay different. Clutch had fifteen minutes with that track off of Pure Rock Fury, but other than that, are still doing small venues and making a decent living. Don't even get me started on all the underground metal stuff that's not once seen the light of day, yet can still afford gas, food, cigarettes, and lodging.

 

Not all bands need to make millions of dollars. The ones that do, IMO, are pretty clearly in it for the money, and not so much for their own art. Of course there's exceptions, but for the most part I feel that's true, sadly.

[Guest NoCalMike]

See, I do accept change. Kill 'Em All sounds dramatically different from And Justice for All, yet it is still damn good.

 

I don't mind that Slayer has slowed a bit. I mean hell they have been in the game for 20 years now at least. Metallica just had this attitude about it and they just tried to pass it off like their new stuff was no different. They tried to used the scapegoat that people like me were just mad that they cut their hair which was hogwash. Plenty of Grindcore bands with short hair...I mean azif......

 

Metallica should have just said, "fuck the album sale" because it is common knowledge that no money is made for artists from CDs it is all about the touring, and no one I have ever known has gone to a Metallica show to hear, "hero of the day" haha

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Plenty of Grindcore bands with short hair...I mean azif......

Don't forget the fact that 90% of death bands have a token bald dude. It's a fact.

[Guest converge241]

Bands that DID sell-out:

Pantera: Probably the oddest case, as Pantera has always been selling-out to try and remain underground. Whenever a new trend appears in the underground metal world, Phil and co. capitalize on it.

Machine Head: Too easy. Went from pure thrash metal to a rap/rock band in the span of an album, with a year difference between the two albums.

Motley Crue: Generation Swine, anyone?

Marilyn Manson: He released Mechanical Animals just 2 years after his angst-ridden Antichrist Superstar, and became ultra-popular. It's obvious his songs on Mechanical Animals were written to be more commercially acceptable, and he admits that. Yet it's actually his best album... "

 

let me debat/agree with you corey

 

Pantera: i agree. they started as thrash then kind of got the "hardcore " look about them, then went "heavier" on trendkill and then back to basics on reinventing all coinciding with trends. PLUS phil only told MTV to fuck off ..when they stopped playing them.

 

Motley Crue- you picked the wrong album.. the self titled was such a big attempt to cash in

 

Machine Head- you hit the nail on that one, i actually like burning red better than any of their others but i can see that its a huge change

 

Marilyn Manson - heh. you knew it was coming. personally i think he shot himself in the foot on this one because he could have continued and gotten more popular with similar stuff to Antichrist, but he did a 180 in direction and trendy fans hated it. i think he pulled the sell out on the next album, because he went back to that sound

[Guest converge241]

"Don't forget the fact that 90% of death bands have a token bald dude. It's a fact. "

 

also the token crazy goatee guy.. although sometimes TBD and TCGG are one in the same, no?

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

don't forget Short Guy, and Skinny Guy On Heroin. Along with Token Bald Guy and Crazy Goatee Guy, that sums up most death bands in terms of looks. And yes, TCB and Goatee guy are often one and the same. Kerry King started a fashion revolution in the world of metal..heh heh.

[Guest converge241]

lol @ SGOH...

 

sometimes theres a Token Totally Normal Looking/ "im out of place" Guy. The guy who has a "real job" during the day

 

if you look at the numetal/rap metal theres always the Token Guy with Dreds/Braids

[Guest The Metal Maniac]

NoCal: You missed the point I was trying to make.

 

See, I was simply arguing that "selling out" can be somewhat relative.

 

I realize that Slayer didn't change their music to suit other people's tastes. BUT, what I was saying, is that in doing so, it could be argued that they were making sure to sell their albums to a select group of people.

 

Rather then changing to suit group X of people, which can be risky, they stayed the same to suit Y group of people, their old fans. Either way, it's the same thing: Changing (Or not changing) your musical style to suit a select group of people.

 

Also...

 

Pantera: i agree. they started as thrash then kind of got the "hardcore " look about them

 

No they didn't; And this proves Pantera to be the ultimate metal sell-out.

 

Cowboys from Hell was only their first MAJOR LABEL album. Ever heard Projects in the Jungle? Or Metal Magic? Even I Am The Night, or Power Metal?

 

Yeah. Pantera originated as a GLAM ROCK band. That's why on Cowboys from Hell, Darrell is listed as "Diamond" Darrell. Previous to this, Rex was also known as "Rockin'" Rex. Just for future reference.

[Guest redbaron51]

to the guy that said Slayer still kick ass, no way, they declined big time after Season of the Abyss.

 

As for people saying that music quality is selling out, then in no way Load was a sell out album, more of a concept. Metallica change their music to fit with the times. If they kept playing the same way as back in the 80's they would never be as big, and only loyal followers would like them. That's why Slayer, Maiden, 'Deth aren't that big, because they never changed their style to fit with the times.

[Guest evenflowDDT]

Marilyn Manson: He released Mechanical Animals just 2 years after his angst-ridden Antichrist Superstar, and became ultra-popular. It's obvious his songs on Mechanical Animals were written to be more commercially acceptable, and he admits that. Yet it's actually his best album... "

 

Marilyn Manson - heh. you knew it was coming. personally i think he shot himself in the foot on this one because he could have continued and gotten more popular with similar stuff to Antichrist, but he did a 180 in direction and trendy fans hated it. i think he pulled the sell out on the next album, because he went back to that sound

I don't think Marilyn Manson would've been able to continue making albums like Antichrist Superstar, and the inability of anyone to care about him since he "de-evolved" back to that style of music post-Mechanical Animals is proof of that. Did Manson sell out because of Mechanical Animals, or because of Holy Wood? I actually don't think Manson ever sold out, not because I'm a fan of his (I'm not; the only album of his I can listen to all the way through is Mechanical Animals), but because (at least in the beginning) it seemed like he wanted to make music that made people feel uncomfortable. However, on his current path, he was gaining fans, but wasn't making anybody feel uncomfortable because nobody other than his fans would listen to his music (I know I never heard of him until the "Sweet Dreams" cover).

 

He probably thought that by writing a poppier album he could get more people to listen to his songs, and thus get the leverage to get more people to his "God & Guns & Government Tour" (I know that's not the exact title, anyone care to help me out here?) where he could play his older songs and make more people uncomfortable again (whether or not this actually happened I don't know because I never went to see him live). When he noticed that that didn't really work, he reverted back to his older style out of boredom or desperateness (probably the latter so he wouldn't lose his old fans, some of whom probably pulled the "sell out" bag on him after Mechanical Animals).

 

Of course that's all speculation on my part. If anyone knows the "true story" (if there is one) feel free to post it and correct me.

[Guest Ripper]

Ja-Rule featuring Metallica....once this got printed on a CD cover, there is time to stop and seriously look at yourself as a musician and ask your self, "Am I doing this for the music or for a extra buck."

 

Not saying Metallica sold out or that the didn't, but since when was "Hip-Rock" part of what they were aiming for.

[Guest redbaron51]

i'd do almost anything to make a buck.

[Guest BottleRocket]

But yeah. A band can be talented and not make it big, dilk bathoon. Ever heard the DropKick Murphys? Excellent Oi! music, and among the best bands Boston has ever produced (yeah, fuck you, Aerosmith). Do they really make a decent living from touring? Yeah, but they know they can't base their lives off of playing music they want to play, so they're volunteer firefighters on the side.

A few comments about in regards to the Dropkick Murphys.

 

First, calling them an Oi! band is a little misleading. At this point in their career the band is well beyond the simple street-punk genre. Their audience has diversified from skinheads and gutterpunks to include a wide range of individuals. And their style has grown greatly. While they have always had pub rock and celtic touches to their sound, their expanded line-up and most recent full-length has cemented them firmly in Pogues and Flogging Molly territory instead of just early Business-style chant-a-longs. It's not to say that they aren't still punk, but just that their music boundaries have somewhat broadened.

 

Second, many people would argue that they have "made it big" since they are signed with Hellcat, a division of what has become, in essence, a major label; they have headlined sold-out shows at major clubs; they have made music videos that have received some airplay; they were chosen by the Sex Pistols to support their Jubilee Reunion Show at the Crystal Palace National Sports Centre in London; they have been interviewed and reviewed by Playboy magazine; they have collaborated with Shane MacGowan; and they have played the Glastonbury Festival, the Werchter Festival, the Hultsfred Festival, the Lowlands Festival, and the main stage of the Warped Tour.

 

And that's just a few of their accomplishments.

 

The Dropkick Murphys have had more success than 90% of the bands working today. And they have a record label that lets them release not only new material, but a singles collection and a live album. Not to mention that they are allowed to contribute material to numerous compliations and even release split EPs for other labels like Taang and Vagrant.

 

That's a pretty sweet deal.

 

They make more than a decent living off of their touring, record sales, and merchandise empire. "Making-It-Big" doesn't necessarily mean that they are on TRL twice a week, every Clear Channel radio station, and the lips of every middle-schooler in the Midwest.

 

However, their success has also led to some sell-out feelings by members of their audience who were angry when Mike McColgan and Rick Barton left the band and when the group signed with Epitaph. Personally, I don't feel that way, but I certainly know people who do.

 

Finally, the firefighter comment. I'm not sure what you are referring to. The band's original vocalist Mike McColgan left the band before the recording of "The Gang's All Here" to work as a firefighter and has since been hired by the Boston Fire Department. He was replaced by Al Barr from the Bruisers who has served as the main vocalist ever since.

 

If the band volunteers as firefighters it certainly isn't for extra money, it probably is just to help out the community.

 

As you probably know, the Murphys donated over $4000 to the 9-11 relief fund last year.

[Guest NoCalMike]

Well my point of selling out, if when you stop making the music YOU LIKE and WANT to make in order to please your record company. Sometimes it isn't even about the fans either way. Record companies own everything, they own the right to promote or NOT to promote. and they threaten bands all the time about just not promoting shit if they don't do it a certain way.

[Guest TheyCallMeMark]

NoCalMike... Did you even listen to Metallica (the album)? Nu-metal? Stopped doing guitar solos? Wow the sheer amount of wrongness is baffling. The musical complexity on that album is waaaay beyond what they had been doing before, particularly the bass. The whole album is a huge step up from their original four. As astonishing as this might sound, they actually grew up. Hammet has said that the reason he just doesn't shred anymore is because they used to be young and he was all about proving himself as a guitarist, has moved beyond just playing as fast as he cant and now actually applies musical ideas instead of just hiting a bunch of notes that sound right together.

 

People's musical tastes change, as hard as you might find that to beleive. As people get older, oftentimes they like softer music. You expect them to keep playing the music YOU like just so they can have YOU as a fan? Wait, you want them to change their musical style so they can have another person buying their record? Sounds a little like selling out to me.

 

And if you really want to make a Metallica sold out argument, take a look at "Master Of Puppets". What do I mean? Catchy hooks and chorus' abound. This is where the whole mainstream-friendly lyric thing started, all the songs are very sing-along in nature... So don't tell me they suddenly, out of nowhere, they changed both their music and their lyrics. The lyrics had already changed before they went into the Black Album. Their music had changed on every single album before the black album, so I don't think that is much of an argument. The only real change I can see is that James Hetfield actually learned how to sing, instead of sucking as bad as Mustaine.

 

All I have to say is E-li-tist.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

The musical complexity on that album is waaaay beyond what they had been doing before, particularly the bass.

 

 

 

Hammet has said that the reason he just doesn't shred anymore is because they used to be young and he was all about proving himself as a guitarist, has moved beyond just playing as fast as he cant and now actually applies musical ideas instead of just hiting a bunch of notes that sound right together.

 

 

The only real change I can see is that James Hetfield actually learned how to sing, instead of sucking as bad as Mustaine.

 

All I have to say is E-li-tist.

If you're saying anything that Newsted did was better than Cliff Burton, your post is automatically null and void.

 

Hammet's just making excuses because he isn't talented.

 

As far as the last "observation" well...get your head checked.

 

Goddamn right I'm an elitist, too, because I refuse to listen to inferior crap from bands that don't try.

[Guest redbaron51]

If you're saying anything that Newsted did was better than Cliff Burton, your post is automatically null and void.

 

Hammet's just making excuses because he isn't talented.

 

As far as the last "observation" well...get your head checked.

 

Goddamn right I'm an elitist, too, because I refuse to listen to inferior crap from bands that don't try.

Newsted doesn't suck, or is better than Burton. Both are tremendous bassist, but Burton you can hear because Newsted drowns out his bass so low its almost non-existant. He had some great stuff that he never gets credit for, The God That Failed, Blackened, My Friend of Misery, King Nothing, so what he can't play Anthesisa, he still damn good.

 

Hammett's talented, but he just doesn't really show it, and keeps playing the same thing.

 

And if you don't like music that most bands don't try then you my friend should get your head check because 99.99999999999999999999999% try, it just might not be the style you don't like, or that some people lack in skills. (Really are you gonna compare Kerry King to Kirt Hammett or some nu-metal guy to John Petrucci...each have their own skill)

[Guest NoCalMike]

I don't like Metallica's new music, whether they sold out is a whole seperate issue, I say they did, you say they didn't, whatever........but to say anything from the black album to the present is more complex then And Justice for all and back is just a foolish statement. Metallica went from Mind-bending thrash that started a revolution with Slayer to a "verse, chrous, repeat" band.....yah more complex, uh huh....sure.....

[Guest redbaron51]

actually Metallica (black album) is more complexed than anything else they did on the first four albums. It might have a slower tempo, but still it does show as a band that they have matured, instead of just playing three notes fast.