Japanese audiances

February 23, 2002

(I hope I'm not double posting)

What do you folks here think about Japanese audiances?

I myself have not seen a truckload of puro, but from what I've seen these people are way too polite. They "Ohh" a big move (popping for highspots?! No, not Japanese audiances!), chant for the guy who's getting stomped, and cheer the winner...but that's about it. I hear there are a few exceptions (Inoki/Vader, the Super Transcendant Orgasm-Creating Misawa/Kawada), but not that many. Maybe there are a lot of sustained pops and hatred for the bad guys, but...I haven't seen it.

The whole sportsmanship thing is cool, but where are the fired up crowds screaming for the heel to die? Where are the big sustained pops? I was watching Super J Cup '94 and the crowd seemed dead for most of it. It was great wrestling. It was just bizzare not to have a crowd going apeshit, standing up, taking pictures. I bet if Rock wrestled over there he'd slit his wrists five minutes in because of the lack of crowd reaction.

February 23, 2002

In Japan there is often a lack of heel/face definition with some obvious exceptions. Kawada vs Misawa wasn't a heel vs face match, it's not that black and white. Crowd cheered for both wrestlers.

Crowds in Japan can be as passionate as any in the world. Watch some early 90's Jumbso Tsuruta and Co. vs Misawa and Co. matches. Misawa, Kawada, and Kobashi got cheered for their fighting spirit and booed when they took shortcuts. Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue, Masa Fuchi got cheered for fighting valiantly and booed when they got all rudo on Misawa and friend's asses. But in the end the crowd loved every minute because the had respect for all the wrestlers. The storylines ran much deeper than Wrestler A hates Wrestler B and the crowd is supposed to cheer Wrestler A and boo Wrestler B.

February 23, 2002

I don't know, I always kinda dug the japanese crowds, just because they're so differnt than say the american audience. They golf clap their appreciation and give great appreciation with 'Oooh's' and 'Aahhh's'. More than anything they remain repectful and let the wrestlers put on a story. It's just helps add to the aura of a more refined appreciation. I figure it also shows a major reflection of their culture in general.

February 23, 2002

What do you folks here think about Japanese audiances?

If you buy tapes from Jeff Lynch, get the Kobashi/Kikuchi vs. Kroffat/Furnas 5/25/92 match.

If you see this match, you'll need no explaination...

February 24, 2002

"The storylines ran much deeper than Wrestler A hates Wrestler B and the crowd is supposed to cheer Wrestler A and boo Wrestler B."

But a clear heel / face dynamic makes things a lot simpler and therefore more fun to watch. Wrestling for me has never been about having to think about things. If you have to think about match psychology then the chances are the marks aren't getting the benifit of complex psych. Since the aim of any wrestling show is to entertain, having to think deeply is a bad thing since, for me, it ruins the entertainment.

Just to be clear, I am entertained by matches like Misawa vs. Kobashi 99, because of the great workrate and psychology based around finishers. But, if there was a clear heel / face dynamic, I'm pretty sure I'd prefer it because it would allow one of the wrestlers to break out the heel stuff and get into it, and I just love heel stuff.

February 24, 2002

"But a clear heel / face dynamic makes things a lot simpler and therefore more fun to watch. Wrestling for me has never been about having to think about things."

Yeah, "don't think, don't bother to put your mind to work and figure out if, at its core, it sucks - just enjoy it..." Please.

"If you have to think about match psychology then the chances are the marks aren't getting the benifit of complex psych."

So? They paid their money, they're in attendance. Their job is done. Why the Hell do you care about them? Or am I answering my own question?

"Since the aim of any wrestling show is to entertain, having to think deeply is a bad thing since, for me, it ruins the entertainment."

Well, that's you. If a match isn't making me think, I tend to hate it. Thinking is typically belittled by those who are no good at it, I've found.

"Just to be clear, I am entertained by matches like Misawa vs. Kobashi 99, because of the great workrate and psychology based around finishers."

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Psy--ahahah--based around fi--ahahahahahah!

The ideas present in that match are no deeper than, "I've kicked out of this before, so I'll kick out of it again" or "this hasn't been used in our matches, I guess I'll stay down this time." For AJPW, where a 'great' match does that much and then plays off similar situations and settings in the past as well as showing the progress of the wrestlers in relation to one another, 6/11/99 is a bad main event match.

"But, if there was a clear heel / face dynamic, I'm pretty sure I'd prefer it because it would allow one of the wrestlers to break out the heel stuff and get into it, and I just love heel stuff."

Yeah, because all that heel stuff would make SO much sense in the context of their matches against each other..."heel stuff" is there, but in the right places, a way for someone to say "I want to take what you have" - check it when Misawa slaps Jumbo in 6/8/90, or when Kawada punches Misawa in 7/29/93, or when Kawada kicks Misawa in the face in 6/9/95 after breaking his eye orbital in the previous series, or Taue stepping on Misawa's face in their matches during the final of that same series. But that might mean you'd have to think about why rudo actions in AJPW are few and far between, and we wouldn't want you to go and do a thing like that...

February 24, 2002

"But a clear heel / face dynamic makes things a lot simpler and therefore more fun to watch."

Eh, you're only half right thear. One of the first things I learned when I started watching puro was that wrestling just isn't as fun when you don't have anyone to root for in the match but wanting someone to win's never been about wheather they were heel or face and one guy cheats and the other doesn't to me.

And as far as the whole having to think about a match stuff goes. Sometimes it's fine and sometimes it isn't. Personally it depends on what mood i'm in wheather i'll wanna see a match with good psychology or just a spotfest whear they flip through the air 8 thousand times for no real reason or a deathmatch whear they just bleed alot or whatever...

February 24, 2002

"Yeah, 'don't think, don't bother to put your mind to work and figure out if, at its core, it sucks - just enjoy it...' Please."

Overanalysis can kill ANYTHING. I could sit down and dissect some of my faveorite matches, but why? Then I wouldn't like them. I don't sit down and enjoy all wrestling at pure face value, but it's not like I'll get on Low-Ki's case for doing an armdrag after American Dragon's put him in a Crossface Chickenwing. What a sinner!

Some matches die from analysis, some benefit from it. I don't see why the ones that benefit from it are by default better...

"So? They paid their money, they're in attendance. Their job is done. Why the Hell do you care about them? Or am I answering my own question?"

If the marks aren't entertained, do you think they'll come back?

"Well, that's you. If a match isn't making me think, I tend to hate it. Thinking is typically belittled by those who are no good at it, I've found."

You mean you can't sit back and enjoy something like RVD and Sabu v. Shinzaki and Hayabusa, or a TLC? If not, man, I feel sorry for you.

"AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Psy--ahahah--based around fi--ahahahahahah!"

You're kind of being a j**k.

"The ideas present in that match are no deeper than, 'I've kicked out of this before, so I'll kick out of it again' or 'this hasn't been used in our matches, I guess I'll stay down this time.' For AJPW, where a 'great' match does that much and then plays off similar situations and settings in the past as well as showing the progress of the wrestlers in relation to one another, 6/11/99 is a bad main event match."

I don't know, wasn't the whole AJ community having a collective orgasm because Misawa hit Kobashi with a TD '91, Kobashi kicked out...so the Green Guy hits the Tiger Suplex '85, then his stupid little elbow, and THEN got the pin?

I know the psychology (Super Finish #1 failed, Super Finish #2 connected, regular finish finishes the match because Misawa doesn't want to risk Kobashi kicking out of Super Finish #2 and making it look bad) but that just doesn't seem like the kind of psychology that'd make AJ a billion times better than the WWF's best show.

"Yeah, because all that heel stuff would make SO much sense in the context of their matches against each other..."

Meh, I think it could. AJ does have its share of heel stuff. I think it could benefit from a little more color, I don't think it'd ruin its traditional atmosphere. But...that's just me.

But...how about audiances? How do you feel about the audiances? Gold clapping a neck-breaking head drop?

February 24, 2002

The poor spelling was enough for me to ignore most every stupid post in this thread.

February 24, 2002

*sigh* everytime I post in this folder Jubuki pops up and picks me apart, im getting quite bored of it I must say. Thanks to Breaking Point for sticking up for me and my simple brain though, you're a top lad matey

Just to clear up one point though, at the risk of being overanalysed yet again...

"So? They paid their money, they're in attendance. Their job is done. Why the Hell do you care about them?"

I care about what the marks think BECAUSE the main aim of a wrestling match is to entertain the marks. Something is deemed 'good' in any form of anything if it acheives its objective. Wrestling's objective (or aim) is to entertain the marks, so if it achieves that, then it can be deemed a good match.

February 24, 2002

"I care about what the marks think BECAUSE the main aim of a wrestling match is to entertain the marks."

And these supposed 'passionless' Japanese fans have paid their money to be entertained by this 'dry' unamerican brand of professional wrestling over the last half-century or so, I'd say it's done it's job in that respect. Somehow you seem to correlate the lack of "she's a crack whore" chants and sign waiving dipshits in the crowd as failing to meet that objective. But you'd be wrong.

"Something is deemed 'good' in any form of anything if it acheives its objective."

No, something is deemed good if it connects with the individual it's engaged with. The masses tend to be more unpredictable and unreliable when it comes to matters of taste. I tend to think it's wiser not to solely rest what's good and not good on their shoulders. But I suppose some folks find it easier that way, their loss.

February 25, 2002

I'm gonna be all hypocritical and say "I'm not even gonna dignify that with a response".

Look, Jubuki and like minded friends with too much time on your hands and a brain that likes to nitpick, I dont think deeply about everything that I post. I'm not going to bother going through everything I write with a fine tooth comb, and therefore, I can't defend everything I write with an elequently composed argument.

Basically, I come on here to post random stuff in response to equally random topics. I dont come on here to get every half-arsed response, that i've thought about very little, analysed to the point of no return.

You see this is what's so wrong with wrestling today, all these smarts endlessly picking apart the products and searching out things to bitch about. If you just sit down and relax, watch some wrestling, and dont think about it you will enjoy the product SO much more. Just chill out, overanalysis aint worth it.

February 25, 2002

"If you just sit down and relax, watch some wrestling, and dont think about it you will enjoy the product SO much more."

God, I hate these elitest pricks telling me how 'I' should enjoy my wrestling. Fucking snobs.

February 25, 2002

The very nature of professional wrestling is that of working the fans, bilking them out of their money for something they deem worth the expense. If you're willing to sit idly by while a product's quality goes into a downward spiral, if you don't put a check on what someone's doing and tell them, in one way or another, "What you're doing isn't any good, so you don't get my money/ratings/attention", then you're just the kind of fool they're hoping will show up and plunk down $20. You let yourself get worked. "Don't think and you'll enjoy it more" is a great mantra if you like to get screwed over and conned out of your money. Have fun.

I hardly have too much time on my hands to say the obvious; this is something I thought about for all of, oh, 10 seconds. It's not 'overanalysis' - it's common sense. It isn't an 'eloquently constructed argument' - it's saying what's right there in front of my face, in plain view. If you want randomness, go to the WWF folder, or, better yet, to RSPW. Your stereotypical, anti-thinking garbage will fit right in there. And you can take Breaking Point and his 'more gaping holes than a porn actress' attempt at an argument with you.

February 25, 2002

"If you just sit down and relax, watch some wrestling, and dont think about it you will enjoy the product SO much more."

Ah no I wouldn't if I wanted to stare blankly like a cow and not think about it I wouldn't have goten into puro to begin with.

God forbid having to think when being entertained.

About the lack of face and heel dymanic you may have to *GASP* watch the wrestlers yourself and conclude on your own who you like without announcers telling you.

February 25, 2002

I think the behaviour of wrestling fans is just a cultural thing. You cant really expect Japanese fans to act exactly like American ones do, it's a whole different culture and the style of wrestling itself differs greatly from what most of us are more used to seeing. Japanese fans certainly dont lack any passion or anything, they just express themselves in a different manner. A Japanese football crowd is much more reserved than fans are in any other part of the world (Europe, S.America, Africa), but they are no less passionate or loyal either. I'd also like to take the opportunity to say to some people on this board that being a WWF fan does not make you a 'mindless sheep'. Every post which you feel is being slightly critical of your beloved puro has to be dismissed as the ramblings of an dumb idiot or be subject to snide dismissals of the WWF in general. The ironic thing is that this attitude of stereotyping WWF fans has resulted in stereotyping yourselves as horribly self important and boring people who consider themselves intellectually superior for being hardcore fans of Japanese wrestling. Maybe if you cut people a little more slack you would have more people to talk to on this board. By the way Jubuki, i dont think humour is your strong point either is it? Feel free to come and pick the 'holes' in my argument if you wish, i'm off to the WWF folder.

February 26, 2002

I think that the crowd reaction and the announcers are just as important as the match. I could be silly that way, but thats how I feel. We all know what a super hot crowd can do to a lame match and what a dead crowd can do to a great match.

I enjoy the Japanese fans, especially the All Japan fans. Their oohs and aahs and them jumping out of their seats and going horseshit really adds to the drama of the match. Without it I doubt we would all enjoy those matches with misawa, kawada, kobashi, jumbo, etc. Hell, even Giant Babas matches were made watchable (at least for me) because of the crowds response to him. The whole psychology of the match and the 'each move has a meaning' is brought forward through announcing and the crowds reaction. They may be silent at times, but thats because the match BUILDS. I find that it takes me maybe 10 minutes to fully get into a match because things have to be established first, and in retrospect the match was fantastic. It takes patience to watch these matches (at least thats what I find) so of course the crowd might be silent through parts of a match, but they get SUPERHOT when it all comes together. Thats why people say that AJPW is an aquired taste because you have to have patience in watching it for it all to develop.

February 26, 2002

One problem with this thread: everyone's saying "The Japanese Audiences" like they're all the same person, just copied a few thousand times. There are very different wrestling fans in Japan. All Japan doesn't entertain the hardcore fans, FMW wouldn't light the fire of the worked-shoot crowds, and so on. I mean come on, those "Japanese Audiences" made stars of guys like Tiger Jeet Singh, Ryuma Go, and Ken the Box. They're not the all-knowing gods of wrestling fandom.

February 26, 2002

One problem with this thread: everyone's saying "The Japanese Audiences" like they're all the same person, just copied a few thousand times. There are very different wrestling fans in Japan. All Japan doesn't entertain the hardcore fans, FMW wouldn't light the fire of the worked-shoot crowds, and so on. I mean come on, those "Japanese Audiences" made stars of guys like Tiger Jeet Singh, Ryuma Go, and Ken the Box. They're not the all-knowing gods of wrestling fandom.

Also, I would be remiss not to mention that the original poster spelled the word incorrectly as "audiances". People with a valid counter spelled it correctly as "audiences". People that supported the original post's views simply copied the poor spelling.

For one thing, if I'm looking for someone's opinion that I can respect and learn from, one of the first thing I look for is proper spelling. That's always a sure sign that you shouldn't put a lot of stock into some opinions.

Whear am I going with this;)?

February 26, 2002

I'd also like to take the opportunity to say to some people on this board that being a WWF fan does not make you a 'mindless sheep'. Every post which you feel is being slightly critical of your beloved puro has to be dismissed as the ramblings of an dumb idiot or be subject to snide dismissals of the WWF in general. The ironic thing is that this attitude of stereotyping WWF fans has resulted in stereotyping yourselves as horribly self important and boring people who consider themselves intellectually superior for being hardcore fans of Japanese wrestling. Maybe if you cut people a little more slack you would have more people to talk to on this board. By the way Jubuki, i dont think humour is your strong point either is it? Feel free to come and pick the 'holes' in my argument if you wish, i'm off to the WWF folder.

Trolls are treated accordingly here. Seeing as they rarely have a logical arguement or any sort of point, they take a defensive position of being picked on for their WWF fandom (which is hardly ever the case).

March 2, 2002

"For one thing, if I'm looking for someone's opinion that I can respect and learn from, one of the first thing I look for is proper spelling. That's always a sure sign that you shouldn't put a lot of stock into some opinions."

I made a spelling mistake, so now my opinion is suddenly not valid (or at least respected or considered?) Linger, my friend, that takes the cake for the most pretentious thing I've ever heard anywhere (and that covers a lot of ground.) I'll spell check from now on. I'd hate to think that what I have to say is thrown out so quickly because of a typo. Some of my favorite posts and stories on the Internet have had less then perfect spelling and grammar and the like...the message just shined through.

I know the Japanese fans are loyal and happy...they sell out those giant dome shows all the time! I just think it's weird that they're so quiet, that's all. I know that they are a more repressed people in general. I know All-Japan's matches are games of human chess. I like Kawada and Kobashi.

I wanted to know what you thought about the different crowd reactions in Japan, and instead this flies into another America v. Japan thing that happens whenever you compare the two products. I'm sorry if my second reply fed into that, it was NOT my intention to get another crapfest like that started. Only a few people even bothered to address the crowd reactions, but to them I'm thankful.

Christ...

March 2, 2002

"For one thing, if I'm looking for someone's opinion that I can respect and learn from, one of the first thing I look for is proper spelling. That's always a sure sign that you shouldn't put a lot of stock into some opinions."

"one of the first thing"? Try adding an S, idiot.

March 5, 2002

Japanese audiences are great. They aren't quite as good as lucha audiences, but they are very good. The thing about Japanese audiences is not the way they react, but what they react to. When a wrestler is put into an armbar, you get the loudest "Oooohs" and Aaaahs" in the match a lot of the time. This kicks so much ***. They "Ooh" and Aaah" for submissions, reversal/counter series, high risk moves, just about everything. They don't just cheer the wrestlers for every big move they do, but they give them that appreciation for all the little things they do during the match.

As far as the hwole psychology/entertainment argument goes, I am kind of in the middle. I love the highly psychological matches, and every once in a while I will sit and enjoy an RVD match. I can always watch the Lynn matches, because JL is so great, but there are times I just can't stand RVD. In the end, it all comes down to taste. Some people like one, some like the other, some like both. Arguing won't change their minds...

March 5, 2002

Check out this thread in the WWF folder:

http://24.167.39.39:220/cgi-bin....;t=2124

I was about to rip right into it but I just gave it a small, quick reply. Pretty rascist look at puroresu, as all Japanese wrestlers are small, rice boys, etc.

March 6, 2002

Thought is nothing to be afraid of. To relate this to the WWF fans that are in this thread, the best angle in US history, to me, made me do the most thinking of any storyline I've ever seen.

Bret Hart was a babyface in a world turned heel in 1997, looking to recapture his past glory and honorable standing, but returned to his company only to find that an angry, foul-mouthed, beer-swilling SOB was now the patron saint of the same fans that used to support him. Bret began questioning the morality of the WWF and in turn the morality of the US as a whole and made some good points about America's health care system (or lack thereof), domestic violence and divorce rates.

A certain sense of territorial pride has been instilled in most young Americans since birth. We are born to believe that we live in the greatest country in the world and that we are the standard bearer for the rest of the world. Questioning America's values is unpatriotic and being unpatriotic is the equivalent to being unholy.

But is that hypocritical? Aren't we taught religiously to love everyone equally and that we are no better than any one? It's an unspoken thought most of us have had our entire lives and all of the sudden a proud yet scorned Canadian hero has actually verbalized our private thoughts.

This raises several questions:

1. Is Bret Hart hypocritical for criticizing the US while collecting money from an American company?

2. Is Canadian patriotism at its core any more wrong than American patriotism?

3. Is Bret Hart actually right and do I have the guts to admit it?

4. Is Steve Austin the kind of guy I want my children to grow up to become?

Those are just a VERY few of the questions that were raised with this angle and it lead to complex and varied thoughts among the fanbase and in turn led to the Attitude era with Steve Austin as the focal point. The fans made their decision -- the past was the past and Bret Hart could go screw himself.

THERE'S an angle that actually forced fans to think and it eventually led to the most profitable era in US wrestling history. Now just imagine if you could actually watch a match and have powerful feelings like those invoked? It's not going to come overnight, just like the ingrained thoughts I mentioned before weren't instilled in you overnight. It comes with watching something unfold over a long period of time until the tension and drama gets to a point where something has to give.

Any novelist (and good wrestling promoters) will tell you that you have to build up to a great moment. You can't just throw it out there for the Pavlovian crowds immediately because it cheapens the moment and the suspense is far less memorable and full of impact when there's no anticipation with which to begin.

There's a point here that I think I'm on the verge of revealing while I'm being stopped by an invisible hump, but the point is that angles that make you think have happened in the US before and they've worked effectively, so the WWF panderers should realize that thinking is not a "Puro mark"-inclusive activity.

Wrestling is an art form and I truly believe that. I think that people who can't see that are actually disgracing the art.

On top of that, it annoys the hell out of me when WWF sympathizers come into this folder and criticize something to which they're almost totally unexposed. You know who you are so don't think I'm talking about you if you know you haven't done that. The truth is that most "puro marks" have seen a fair share of BOTH American wrestling and Japanese wrestling and are thus more qualified to make comparisons between the two.

Truly smart people will see things in just about everything that others do not. That doesn't make them "snobby", it makes them intelligent. I just wish that instead of showing this xenophobic fear toward anything different or not totally conventional that some of the rubes would open their mind and accept that their world isn't the only world out there. And the "wrestling is just entertainment, just relax and enjoy it" line of thinking is so rounded it's not funny.

Most of us who have grown up a little have learned that a key part of getting through life is to not only be able to explain our tastes, but explain our REASONS for our tastes. It's not a bad thing to question things around us and look for deeper meaning, especially when it is actually there for those conscientious enough to take note.

Some of the WWF rubes will not get this and I'm really not sure what to say to them except that threads following this pattern are starting to get old:

*WWF fan starts thread criticizing Puro

*Puro fan refutes comments and actually uses evidence to back his point

*WWF fan then makes another point that has nothing to do with the original argument

*Puro fan also refutes that comment and once again uses evidence to back his point

*Realizing he's been proven wrong, WWF fan resorts to name-calling and accuses Puro fan of overanalyzation

*A WWF v Puro debate erupts

This argument is so incredibly old. There are ways to make arguments in favor of the WWF style, but most of the people trying to do so are so incredibly off base that it's laughable. I think that the demise of WCW and ECW is making it clearer and clearer each day the difference between WWF fans and wrestling fans. I'm not saying the WWF isn't wrestling much of the time, I'm saying that you shouldn't consider yourself a wrestling fan if all that you are willing to give a chance and be exposed to is WWF stuff. You're a baseball card collector if you collect baseball cards. You're a Mickey Mantle fan if his cards are the only ones you desire. There's the difference.

March 7, 2002

I disagree with some of the points you brought up:

"The truth is that most "puro marks" have seen a fair share of BOTH American wrestling and Japanese wrestling and are thus more qualified to make comparisons between the two"

I agree to certain extent here, however it all depends on who's making the comparison. If you have well rounded viewer with sensible opinions then yes I agree, however if it's some snobbish wannabe eliteist making the comparison then his opinion is just as bigoted as the WWF fan boy due to the "Everything in the WWF sucks" style of thinking. The only difference is that the Puro fan generally has better spelling

"And the "wrestling is just entertainment, just relax and enjoy it" line of thinking is so rounded it's not funny"

So people choose to adopt that way of thinking, does that make them wrong? Some people just don't want to examine matches, they just like what they like.

"I'm not saying the WWF isn't wrestling much of the time, I'm saying that you shouldn't consider yourself a wrestling fan if all that you are willing to give a chance and be exposed to is WWF stuff. You're a baseball card collector if you collect baseball cards. You're a Mickey Mantle fan if his cards are the only ones you desire"

Now here's where I really disagree. During my early teens the only thing I watched was the WWF yet I began to appreciate wrestling as an art form during this period, did this mean I wasn't a wrestling fan? If you don't/can't watch Puroresu then does that mean you're not a real fan? I find that to be a somewhat bigoted way of thinking

March 7, 2002

<<Thought is nothing to be afraid of. To relate this to the WWF fans that are in this thread, the best angle in US history, to me, made me do the most thinking of any storyline I've ever seen.