And in other news....

[Guest Cancer Marney]

No, we simply set priorities. Of course some of our actions were wrong, both in retrospect and at the time; we make mistakes. On balance, however, we've overwhelmingly done more good than evil. It's easy for you people to forget that - it's even easy for Americans caught up in the delusions of multiculturalism to forget that - but it's the truth, and I won't sit back and let my country be pilloried forever for past mistakes. You'd all be satellites of the Soviet Union by now if we hadn't been around.

You're welcome.

[Zorin Industries 0]

I don't think your'e country is condemmed just for its past mistakes, people just feel that the U.S takes an arrogant " we don't give a shit " stance in its foreign policy.

 

Don't get me wrong I applaud the American values of freedom and your constitution, however I think the idea of "Our way or the highway" is conterproductive. Not just to your relations to other countries, but to your foreign policy goals.

[Guest MarvinisaLunatic]

The US needs to go back to the time when we didn't get into anyone else's bussiness and no one bothered us. Isolationism I think it was called.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

the U.S takes an arrogant " we don't give a shit " stance... I think the idea of "Our way or the highway" is conterproductive. Not just to your relations to other countries, but to your foreign policy goals.

We're seen as arrogant because we know when we're in the right. The rest of the world wants us to keep apologising for taking the lead in the race, even as we drop back to help people who've fallen by the side of the track or people who've run out of breath and are barely jogging in place. Sorry, we have more important things to do.

[Zorin Industries 0]

I don't people see it as you helping people for altruistic (sp?) reasons, but simple to cement your'e position and be able to call upon favours later.

 

Not that theres anything wrong with that, Im a firm believer in Real Politik, but I just wish you would own up to the fact rather than act the martyr

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Your point of view is wrong, and that's pretty much all there is to it. What favours have we called in from France? Britain? Germany? Japan? Ever heard of the Marshall plan? Adjusting for inflation and investment, we forgave trillions in debt. This was all for the sake of calling in favours later? Well, if that was the case, you'll forgive me if I point out that it doesn't seem to have worked very well. So next time I guess we should just let you kill each other.

 

Hell, the world would be a better place for it. A few less shadows on the sun.

[Guest Samurai_Goat]

As for destroying the Hated enemy, which I think refers to the cold war, I wouldn't quite say that we turned this government into anything near the USSR. And I've been around a little bit, addmittidly not much, but from what I heard, those that distrust us think more along the lines of: we're spoiled, arrogant little brats. Less like : Man, they managed to overthrow a government and win the cold war. Maybe it's just me, but I don't hear that as often.

[Guest Samurai_Goat]

And oops, I thought this only had one page, didn't read the second. D'oh!

[Zorin Industries 0]

Except there won't be a next time, we have learned and have changed over here. Thats why no one in Europe wants a war, we have seen close up what it does, we have seen countries torn apart and split in two. We have seen young mens lives been taken away from them in a brutal and pointless fashion. The difference between the U.S and Europe is that it has happened on our soil.

 

While I salute the brave American men who fought for freedom, it can never be the same for you.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Except there won't be a next time, we have learned and have changed over here. Thats why no one in Europe wants a war, we have seen close up what it does, we have seen countries torn apart and split in two. We have seen young mens lives been taken away from them in a brutal and pointless fashion. The difference between the U.S and Europe is that it has happened on our soil.

While I salute the brave American men who fought for freedom, it can never be the same for you.

What a fascinatingly myopic and parochial perspective. Are you aware that we had a Civil War of our own? Just as brutal, if lesser in scope, as either of the World Wars. And please don't adopt that high and mighty tone of moral superiority when we're the only reason you've been able to abandon war in the first place. We taught you how to act like civilised people. We rebuilt the continent after you had devastated it. Not to mention that all significant instruments of international law have come out of America - the same instruments you, for the sake of envy, and our enemies, for the sake of malice, now try to use against us. We've guaranteed your safety for decades and never asked for a damned thing in return, not even gratitude. That's okay. We protect the weak because it's a moral imperative, and we can live without gratitude.

But being preached to by our wards is beyond insufferable.

 

You think you can do better, Jesus wept, step up to the plate. God knows you've been cowering in the bleachers long enough. If you can't, could you kindly shut the fuck up so we can concentrate? We're trying to save lives here.

 

But maybe that doesn't mean much to you; after all, some of them are only Jews...

[Zorin Industries 0]

There is no need to accuse me of anti-semitism, where the fuck did that come from. I have not once mentioned Israel or the jews in this topic. I am no racist and I would like an apology.

 

All i tried to say in the above post is that I believe that we have learned from are mistakes. You seem to believe that Europe can never change, what gives you the right to judge.

 

For the record I have not judged America in this topic, I simply listed a number of points of view I believe people share about the U.S.

 

And I feel sympathy for the men who died in the civil war, things like this happen to all countries, you have learned from your mistakes because it has not happened since.

 

P.S: To judge us through the number of wars we have had is a fallicy in my opinion simply because of the number of countries contained in Europe. The only enemy you ever had on your borders was Mexico and that was long ago so the situation is completly different

[Guest papacita]

First off, Marney, don't get on the board talking this "bomb Mecca" bullshit. While I may not be Muslim, there are traces of Islam in my family, and I'm personally offended by your comments. Yes, 3000 of your people were killed by men of Arabic descent in an action that, despite what you say, wasn't endorsed by the Islamic community as a whole. Now can you honestly sit there and tell me that an entire group of people should be condemned for the actions of a select few, when the actions endorsed by the US government have harmed thousands more? If so, you're a fucking hypocrite.

[Guest Olympic Slam]

Obliterating Mecca would be the dumbest thing ever. How about instead we keep radical Islam in check, find the terrosts in our country, control immigration, battle terrorist organizations and countries that condone them.

 

We've turned into such wimps when it comes military action that I doubt we'll even get two of those things accomplished. To think our watered down militarty mind set could do something like take out Mecca (why we would want to, I don't know) is laughable.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Zorin Industries:

 

I am no racist and I would like an apology

I'm sure you would, but you'll have to learn to live with disappointment.

 

I believe that we have learned from are mistakes. You seem to believe that Europe can never change, what gives you the right to judge.

You get a free ride on American power, and then you turn around and whine about it. You're smarmy, sleazy, and unconscionable critics of the only thing that lets you live your pathetic, meaningless, guilt- and accomplishment-free lives.

 

papacita05:

 

First off, Marney, don't get on the board talking this "bomb Mecca" bullshit. While I may not be Muslim, there are traces of Islam in my family, and I'm personally offended by your comments.

Good.

 

an action that, despite what you say, wasn't endorsed by the Islamic community as a whole.

The "Islamic community as a whole" set the stage.

 

Now can you honestly sit there and tell me that an entire group of people should be condemned for the actions of a select few

Yes. I'm condemning them for creating an environment which made the attacks possible. And yes, I hold them accountable for that, just as I hold pro-lifers as a whole responsible for abortion-clinic bombings.

 

when the actions endorsed by the US government have harmed thousands more? If so, you're a fucking hypocrite.

Goodness, that's a fresh and inventive line of attack. Did it take you long to come up with it?

[Guest Cancer Marney]

To think our watered down militarty mind set could do something like take out Mecca... is laughable.

Unfortunately, possibly true.

[Guest papacita]

when the actions endorsed by the US government have harmed thousands more? If so, you're a fucking hypocrite.

Goodness, that's a fresh and inventive line of attack. Did it take you long to come up with it?

Can you tell me it's not true?

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Yes. Your precious "Islamic community" has screeched condemnation of the United States for decades. The groups that comprise it have called us evil, degenerate, blasphemous, cancerous, contagious, and everything else they could possibly think of. They've funded terrorist groups either through sincere sympathy for the goals of blowing up innocent Jewish people or through willful naivete. And suddenly they turn around and pretend to be surprised when a bunch of terrorists plow aeroplanes into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon? Please cut the bullshit. They wanted this to happen. It reminds me of the supposedly "moderate" Islamic professor who told a reporter, "Of course I hate you because you're a Christian. But that doesn't mean I want to kill you." You might as well argue that the people who indoctrinate Palestinians with stories about Jews, those "descendants of apes and pigs," eating Arab babies and drinking blood are horrified and shocked when those same Palestinians run off to strap explosives to their chests. You want to shout "hypocrite?" Turn around and look behind you. They're right there in your own bloody Ummah.

[Zorin Industries 0]

I thought this could be resonable, but if I do not get an apology I will go the administrators. It is defamingmy character to accuse me of racism without an shred of proof. I have not once made one racial slur here.

 

I tried to keep this as cordial of possiable, but you have crossed the line.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Knock yourself out.

[Zorin Industries 0]

You sound pretty sure of yourself, I think I know why and if so it stinks

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Oh? What precisely are you implying?

[Guest bob_barron]

I think he's implying you're friends with Dr. Tom or something

[Zorin Industries 0]

Simply that you are a friend of Dr Toms and therefore you get away with a hell of a lot of shit that other posters wouldn,t. If im wrong i apologise but I think its the truth

[Guest Cancer Marney]

I knew that's what you were going to say; I just wanted to see you say it. Anyway, you're quite wrong. I'm sure of myself because I really don't care if I'm banned from a message board. It will make absolutely zero difference in my life. Besides, I don't think I've said anything that isn't true. Europe has a very well-documented history of anti-Semitism. Every instance of "you" in my posts was clearly inclusive: "you'd go back to killing each other in seconds if we weren't around to slap you down. God knows you've had plenty of practice." Obviously, you, the poster, haven't been killing people, just as you, the poster, may not be anti-Semitic. On the other hand, you, clearly understood as part of the group of Europeans, certainly have, and certainly are. Again, feel free to complain to anyone you like; I will not apologise for what I said or how I said it.

 

And for the record, accusing Tom of favouritism and me of sucking up to him are both very specific defamations of character.

[Zorin Industries 0]

Yes, just as an accusation of anti-semitism is an extremely serious defamation of character.

 

I went back and read that post again. I thought that, yes, you may have meant Europeans in general, but someone just scrolling down and skimming over the post could get the wrong idea. Next thing i know I will be black-balled on this site for being a racist.

 

How hard would it have really been for you to say "sorry what I meant was..." to begin with.

When it is someones reputation that comes into question, especially someone who is new to this board, i think a little decorum would not go amiss.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

You're a little too worried about what other people think of you on an Internet message board. Seriously, get a life.

 

I'm not going to apologise for your misinterpretation of my extremely clear writing, or for what someone else may or may not read into it. Other people's mistakes are not my responsibility.

 

And now I have a date, so I bid you farewell for the evening.

[Guest papacita]

Marney, I don't even know why I'm wasting my time on this, cuz I'm not in the mood for arguing, and if I say everything that's on my mind right now, I'm gonna get banned, so let just make a few points, and I'm done with you.

 

Yes. Your precious "Islamic community" has screeched condemnation of the United States for decades. The groups that comprise it have called us evil, degenerate, blasphemous, cancerous, contagious, and everything else they could possibly think of.

 

And America has done absolutely nothing to warrant any resentment against it? I'm sick and tired of gung-ho, blind patriots such as yourself who act as if America is a pure and innocent entity that has done nothing to warrant any of the ill sentiment against it. And I don't just mean Arabs. The US government has actively thrown its weight around over the years, and has done a lot of harm to people all around the world. 3000 people died in the towers. Yes, but think about the millions of African people that were killed and the millions of families that were broken and destroyed in slavery alone. Think of the millions of Native Americans that were killed. The foreign governments basically destroyed, all in the name of making the world safe for democracy? Not to justify the 9/11 attacks, but to be quite honest, I don't blame anyone for hating America, more specifically the US government, because they've been involved in a whole lot of crooked shit.

 

Now as for you comments of the Islamic World funding terrorists, I haven't heard anything concrete saying whether or not this is true, but since you wanna back up your argument with rumors, let's look at Osama Bin Laden, a man who worked with the CIA during the Cold War as America suplied he and the Afghani army with arms during their war with the Soviets. And where the hell do you think Iraq originally got its weapons from??? See Marney, not only are you and many other people in the US condemning an entire religion for the actions of *15* people, but many of the unfounded accusations you make against Muslims can be made about your own damn government. That's all I've gotta say. Take this post however the hell you wanna. I don't give a shit.

[Guest TestKick]

And now I have a date, so I bid you farewell for the evening.

There's a lucky guy...

[Guest EricMM]

Marney, I don't even know why I'm wasting my time on this, cuz I'm not in the mood for arguing, and if I say everything that's on my mind right now, I'm gonna get banned, so let just make a few points, and I'm done with you.

He disses marney cuz he's not looking for an argument?

 

(Marney @ Aug 22 2002, 04:37 PM)

And now I have a date, so I bid you farewell for the evening.

 

There's a lucky guy...

more heheh

 

anyways.

 

I'm clearly not as conservative as Marney. I believe that Islam is not one big thing that is blamable. I feel that I act independantly of others in the christian religion. But I also feel that this whole thing smacks of "us against them" on the Islam front. Defending or explaining away terrorism, it's not gonna make you any friends. I really have been looking for people from islam groups, countries, etc. to be AS active if not more active than the US at looking for any and ALL terrorists. But they really REALLY haven't. If that emotional mindset is exporting terrorists, which are pointed directly at us, what do you expect us to do? Be nice?

 

I mean christ they're not even making a stand. They're slinking in and blowing up civilians. I am a pacifist and but after reading about Saudis wanting to sue us about defaming them regarding 9/11, if one person said that to me, implying that they are the victims here, attempting to use our courts to get money from us, I would just give them the double eagle and walk away.

[Guest cartman]

And now I have a date, so I bid you farewell for the evening.

There's a lucky guy...

Or girl...