Marney

[Zorin Industries 0]

Having read your posts for a long time, I am left with a question.

 

Where do you get your patriotisim from? It appears to be quite strong and just wonder the reasons for it.

 

I live in Northern Ireland, and have never had any sort of patriotisim, since this place is such a mess.

 

I suppose this could go out to other posters as well, i've just never been able to understand the intense emotions patrioism installs in people.

 

Thanks in advance

[Guest Cancer Marney]

That's a good question, and I'd like to request that any moderator who sees this thread refrain from moving it to General Chat or anywhere else, because it has a lot to do with current events.

 

Prior to September 11th, I often criticised the policies of the United States, both foreign and domestic (in fact, Tom and I regularly had spirited and sometimes vicious arguments about them). But as I watched aeroplanes exploding in the midst of thousands of innocents - I was in Thailand at the time, vacationing with my girlfriend, but we heard about it through the wire and turned on CNN a few minutes before the second tower was hit - something changed. Not my perception of America - I'd always known that despite all America's flaws, she still was and is the last best hope of mankind. What changed was the importance of that knowledge. America had suffered an attack the likes of which the world had never seen. People were rejoicing at my country's dead even as I watched small, tiny shapes hurl themselves off the burning towers, exchanging one certain death for another, faster one. I cried for the first time in years. I wanted not only justice for the dead, but vengeance. I still do. Four months later, I was asked if I would accept an appointment to my current post. I said yes.

 

Why? Because improving and criticising America, while extremely important to me, is not as important as defending her from her enemies. There are certain inalienable rights common to all humanity, and she is the only country extant both willing and able to uphold, protect, and promulgate these rights across the face of the earth. She deserves my loyalty and my love. She deserves my life.

 

I love this land more than anything, even more than I love my future wife, and I'm proud and honoured beyond measure to serve at the pleasure of her President.

[Guest TJH]

What exactly is your position in the U.S government?

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Instructor, analyst, and strategist.

[Zorin Industries 0]

Thanks for that, it was interesting to read.

 

The difference between me and you I think is that, this one thing came out of the blue. It has never happened before on U.S soil and the shock must have been immense.

 

Where as over here we have had over 30 years of terrorism. While we have a peace process it is far from perfect. The army and police have been shown to be in collusion with terrorists for years and helped orginise murders of innocent catholics, whilt the IRA have blown up men, woman and children.

 

The whole things such a scummy mess that I could never see myself supporting either Britain of a united Ireland.

 

But I do love the land I was born in and could never leave, I just dislike a hell of a lot of the people.

 

Hope that makes sense I feel like I am rambling

[Guest DrTom]

I've always been patriotic, and been willing to defend my country from the attacks of the ill-informed. At the same time, I've always been able to see and acknowledge America's flaws. I just think it's a deliberately ignorant mistake to harp on them and ignore all the good this country has done everywhere in the world.

 

It burns me up when countries who basically owe their continued existence to us mouth off about things we've done. Like the French... who went and got their country back for them after they lay down and died for the Nazis? Then who paid to rebuild it, along with the rest of decimated Europe, without asking for anything in return? The Kuwaitis fall into the same boat.

 

Basically, when something terrible happens somewhere in the world, America is the first country to offer some form of aid. Yet when we suffered the worst terrorist attack in many years, where were the offers to aid us? Sure, a lot of people cried, but people in the Middle East were dancing in the streets and burning their American flags. You just don't know how much I wanted to obliterate that entire area of the world when I first saw that. You laugh at our dead? You dance at our tragedies? Fuck you. Eat hot napalm.

 

For some reason, ever since 9/11, it has been fashionable to ignore America's strengths and points out her faults and mistakes at every opportunity. It's also been popular to advance the despicable idea that we somehow deserved what happened to us that day, because of our foreign policy decisions and allegedly imperialist agenda. That point of view makes me very angry and very sick. I had to watch the 9/11 footage recently as part of a training seminar at work (I also work for the government, though in the IT field). All I could do was clench my fists, grind my teeth, and tremble in unvoiced rage and fury at what I saw. I want people to pay for that in spades. I want to see the face of the world changed because of what happened that day. And if some flower-wearing commie wants to get on his pinko podium and rattle off a laundry list of American activities he disagrees with while offering them as validations for the terrorist attacks, then fuck him, and fuck any stupid asshole twisted enough to agree with him. Americans have a duty to support their country, especially in its hour of need. And if some Americans couldn't get behind their country or their president after 9/11, then I'd rather not be reminded of their existence.

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

Speaking not as a "flower-wearing commie", but as a human being, 9/11 horrified me and shocked me, like everyone else, and yes, the seed of anger did come up into the light as well, but it was aimed more towards the fact that we lived in a state of reality where something like this could and did happen. I can understand from a basic visceral level the anger one might feel that could cause someone to say "let's bomb the Middle East" or "fuck all Arabs", but I cannot understand what good such rhetoric does, even from the very basic fact that something like a mass carpet-bombing of the Islamic world will never happen, and if it does, I will never have faith in common sense or people for that matter ever again or the future of America ever again....

 

The face of the world must be changed for the better because of 9/11, or what?? It's crazy to think about sometimes, nor is it healthy to think about the dangerous possibilities often. But what separates patriotism from blind faith, or what separates the healthy love of America from a Nuremberg rally? How fine of a line is it? Is it right to force one's own patriotism on another? A person in France or Iran or Colombia or Canada or Australia or Holland or Russia may be sick of America because America constantly goes to great lengths to proclaim itself the Greatest or the Bastion of Freedom. If this is so true, then why feel the need to shout it from the highest places, even more-so after 9/11, almost as a mockery of the rest of the world, egging those who are more desperate or more insane to send planes of terror and threats of virus-catastrophes upon subways or suitcase nuke-terror that would make 9/11 look like a kid's sandcastle being calmly swept away in the waves. This heat-of-the-moment language, this desire to wipe away all those who are violently against America, when spoken openly, only feeds to the terror, the sense of dread in the air that is far too easy to feel this day. We are a society and a world on edge. Do you deny that? We are on edge and when on edge, strange and inhumane measures are more likely to happen. When people don't have their comfort, they are transformed, they become new creatures, more akin to fall into primal feelings that our common sense stifles out of respect for peace. Who knows? To speak the language of violence is to feed the beast that feeds the thoughts that feeds the people that allow 9/11 to happen. To put America above the rest of the world may make you feel good, but it does nothing but feed the machine of terror and money and war, no matter how true it is....

[Guest DrTom]

The least you could have done is answer the original question, Chris. If you even have any patriotism, that is.

 

The road you're looking to go down is one I've been down with you several times before. I have no desire to taint what could be an interesting and illuminating thread by going down that road again.

[Guest Nevermortal]

This folder intimidates me with all the big wordedness.

 

I'll stick to my One and Only Raw Threads.

 

(Note to self: Don't ever disagree with Marney, for she will bite off my head)

[Guest TJH]

For an overseas perspective, I'm an Aussie, but I'm also a big fan of America. I do get annoyed with America's arrogance, but that is at a personal rather than national level.

America has always helped Australia, and while that has been reciprocated, I am quite grateful for it.

The fact is, America has always helped out the world, been the first to provide aid, and left-wing "intellectuals" never recognise this, and criticise America, nearly always without foundation.

People in third world countries like to criticize America, and balme them for all their own mistakes.

 

Some might say I'm sucking up, but America actually is a great nation.

[Guest Kid Kablam]

Ah, but let's not forget who helped to institute the Taliban in the first place: The United States, in an attempt to curtail our chosen enemy of the decade, the Russians. America has a history of using its power to kick out one dictator, and institute another equally harmful dictator. Frequently there is a political agenda behind our actions. We are by no means a Satan, and we are by no means the greatest nation on the earth. I am an American citizen, and I will fight if my country asks me to, but America, do not ask me to just forget such abominations as the School of the Americas, and our apeasment of foreign powers.

[Guest TJH]

Ah, but let's not forget who helped to institute the Taliban in the first place: The United States

No, you're wrong. The U.S supported the Mujahideen, to a small extent, between 1979 and 1989. The Taliban were born in 1996, and swept to power that year. And you can hardy blame the U.S for not wanting Russia to capture Afghanistan. Reagan was right when he described the U.S.S.R as the evil empire.

[Guest DrTom]

Ah, but let's not forget who helped to institute the Taliban in the first place: The United States

Thanks for playing, and we have some nice parting gifts for you. What the US did was help Usama bin Laden fight the Russians, which was seen as trying to curb the advancement of our enemy at the time. The Taliban didn't rise to power until about five years ago, and we never officially recognized them as the government of Afghanistan.

 

we are by no means the greatest nation on the earth.

Bullshit. Name me a better one.

[Guest Some Guy]

Let's see, Russia (our enemy for about 50 years) invades Afghanistan in 79, we help the Afghans, Communism begins to collapse and Russia pulls out in 89. When the war ended we had no more inerest in Afghanistan and plently in the Eastern European countries who were becoming liberated. Then the Soviet Union fell in 91 and we really had much bigger fish to fry than dealing with a bunch of warlords in a (at the time) insignificant country.

So we stopped paying much attention to them in 89, the Taliban came to power in 96 and we somehow helped bring them to power?

Gotta love leftist revisionist history.

[Guest cartman]

In a way the Taliban exists because of the US, no question. All it is, is a group of people that use terrorist acts as means to "attack" the US for what they believe is "evil acts".

 

Religion is the ONLY thing feuling the whole Mid East mess in the first place.

[Guest Some Guy]

You sort of hit on it, it's not America that is causing the problem it's their backwards religion. They interpret Islam as a religion that rewards murder and terrorism with 70 virgins in heaven and what not. It's not in anyway our fault that they're fucked in the heads.

[Guest Mystery Eskimo]

we are by no means the greatest nation on the earth.

Bullshit. Name me a better one.

Based on what? I don't think 'greatest nation' is something you can say about any country.

[Guest Some Guy]

Well logically if there is more than one country in the world there should be a greatest. I can't think of any country better than America, can you?

[Guest Mystery Eskimo]

I just don't think you can say there is one. I'm not american though so... *shrugs*

 

If pushed, I'd go with Ireland for inventing Guiness.

[Guest Anorak]

Well logically if there is more than one country in the world there should be a greatest. I can't think of any country better than America, can you?

[Guest Some Guy]

I just don't think you can say there is one. I'm not american though so... *shrugs*

 

If pushed, I'd go with Ireland for inventing Guiness.

I don't like Guiness, I drink Bud so America wins here.

[Guest DrTom]

If pushed, I'd go with Ireland for inventing Guiness.

That's a dashed good reason, but I think what the US has done for the world outweighs even the invention of a fine adult beverage like Guiness.

 

Anorak, instead of rolling your eyes thru a silly emoticon, why don't you answer the question? Can you name a better country than the US? And if you can, what makes them better? I'm not asking as a flag-waver; I'm asking because I want to know people's answers to this.

[Guest Kid Kablam]

Ah, but let's not forget who helped to institute the Taliban in the first place: The United States

Thanks for playing, and we have some nice parting gifts for you. What the US did was help Usama bin Laden fight the Russians, which was seen as trying to curb the advancement of our enemy at the time. The Taliban didn't rise to power until about five years ago, and we never officially recognized them as the government of Afghanistan.

 

we are by no means the greatest nation on the earth.

Bullshit. Name me a better one.

Okay, I guess I was going a bit too far and making some generalizations. My comment was meant to indicate a problem that the US has had in the past. Institute, now that I look at it was completely the wrong word. My point was that the US identifies an enemy, then they do anything to stop said enemy, including aiding questionable forces. I was wrong here, and I shall humbly admit it. But I will never call the US "The greatest nation in the world. I don't believe that there is a greatest nation.

[Guest TJH]

Greatest (not best) nation in the world? In terms of power, wealth, technology yes, from about the 1950's onwards. Best place to live in the world? No, I think Australia holds that title.

And we have damn good beer.

[Guest fk teale]

Greatest (not best) nation in the world? In terms of power, wealth, technology yes, from about the 1950's onwards.

In related news

 

Demographers: Pax Americana To Continue Indefinitely

[Guest MR. COOLING]

Better country than America?

 

Unitied Kingdom

 

Not only do we combine America's dymanism and free market ecnomics (although we invented those) we have a not stifling amount of European social market help for the poor we the best legal system and system of rights known to man (despite all Blairite efforts to give us a European system). Plus we have reasonable uncorrupt politicans (well compared to every other country) and a impartial Civil Service where appointments are based on ablity not contacts (well until the current lot), a clear divison between Head of State and Head of Government (stopping patrotism being defined poitically), a glorious history which is reasonablly unsullied a vast cannon of literature including the likes of Shakespere, Orwell, Dickens, Hardy and AJP Taylor and the best Army £ for £ in the world. Oh and the best comics (2000AD and Judge Dredd Megazine) and comic writers (Alan Moore, John Wagner, Pat Mills, Gareth Ennis) and comic artists (Colin MacNeil, Brian Bolland, Simon Bisley).

 

Also for the being the only nationality being man enough to play all the bad guys in Hollywood B-Movies and not be worried about sterotyping.

 

Although I'm tempted to say Italy is the second greatest country for the food and as the mess they call politics is goddamn funny to watch but I'll go with America for you know saving our asses from Russia in the 1940s onwards, oh and for giving us West Wing, OZ, ER, Six Feet Under, Friends, Will & Grace, Scrubs, SIMPSONS, WWF and Batman.

 

W.W.I Cooling

[Guest MR. COOLING]

<But what separates patriotism from blind faith, or what separates the healthy love of America from a Nuremberg rally?>

 

Simple those cheering at Nuremberg were cheering for something evil those who love America are cheering for something although flawed is on the whole is good.

 

Do you see?

 

W.W.I Cooling

[Guest MR. COOLING]

<So we stopped paying much attention to them in 89, the Taliban came to power in 96 and we somehow helped bring them to power?>

 

I remember reading somewhere that the CIA helped the Taliban come to power as the Northen Alliance weren't to there liking, can't remember if it were true or the details but there's definetly rumblings in that area.

 

Also Clinton stopped Iran from invading Afghanistan and deposing the Taliban so you could say it was his fault that the Taliban were still in power in September 2001 (although he did have a plan to topple them which Bush sat on).

 

<Like the French... who went and got their country back for them after they lay down and died for the Nazis?>

 

I wouldn't be to hard on the French in WW2. The actual front line French troops were incredibly brave and fought hard to protect their country but were let down by a defeatist and facist elite. Also its worth remembering De Gaulle and the Free French who fought on bravely to help liberate France.

 

<The face of the world must be changed for the better because of 9/11, or what??>

 

September 11th changed nothing it just woke the west up to the hatred that the Arab world harbours against it.

 

<Is it right to force one's own patriotism on another?>

 

How is America forcing its patriotism on the world? I don't see America blowing people up because they don't live the American way. If Americans want to claim themselves the best country in the world then fine, I know Britian's better just like the French know France is better than either of us no harm in it everyone should be proud of their nation.

 

W.W.I Cooling

[Guest Vern Gagne]

Better country than America?

 

Unitied Kingdom

 

Not only do we combine America's dymanism and free market ecnomics (although we invented those) we have a not stifling amount of European social market help for the poor we the best legal system and system of rights known to man (despite all Blairite efforts to give us a European system). Plus we have reasonable uncorrupt politicans (well compared to every other country) and a impartial Civil Service where appointments are based on ablity not contacts (well until the current lot), a clear divison between Head of State and Head of Government (stopping patrotism being defined poitically), a glorious history which is reasonablly unsullied a vast cannon of literature including the likes of Shakespere, Orwell, Dickens, Hardy and AJP Taylor and the best Army £ for £ in the world. Oh and the best comics (2000AD and Judge Dredd Megazine) and comic writers (Alan Moore, John Wagner, Pat Mills, Gareth Ennis) and comic artists (Colin MacNeil, Brian Bolland, Simon Bisley).

 

Also for the being the only nationality being man enough to play all the bad guys in Hollywood B-Movies and not be worried about sterotyping.

 

Although I'm tempted to say Italy is the second greatest country for the food and as the mess they call politics is goddamn funny to watch but I'll go with America for you know saving our asses from Russia in the 1940s onwards, oh and for giving us West Wing, OZ, ER, Six Feet Under, Friends, Will & Grace, Scrubs, SIMPSONS, WWF and Batman.

 

W.W.I Cooling

The best Army pound for pound? No one will question the UK willingness to fight but hands down the United States Army is the best. It's like boxing where pound for pound Sugar Ray Robinson is considered by many the greatest boxer ever, but Muhammad Ali gets all of the praise. The difference is Robinson is the best pound for pound. The U.S. is the heavyweight that happens to have the best Army.

 

A glorious history except for. The 13 Colonies kicking Great Britains ass right back across the pond.

 

Another thing that bothers me about the Uk is the monarchy. That was one of the reason the colonist became Independent. Certainly the monarchy today is figurehead, but just having somepme called Queen or King doesn't appeal to me.

 

The writers can't be disputed. You've also got Benny Hill so that's a big plus.

 

You stood up for your country MR.COOLING. The United Kingdom is one of the only country's in the world that the U.S. can truely depend on.

[Guest DrTom]

You stood up for your country MR.COOLING. The United Kingdom is one of the only country's in the world that the U.S. can truely depend on.

I'd go as far as to say they're the only one we can reliably count on, day in and day out. I'd also place them right behind the USA in the "greatest country" race. The sun may set on the British Empire these days, but she capably joins America in making sure the rest of the world doesn't fall into darkness.