Dark Knight Strikes Back

[Guest Vyce]

The Joker breaking his own neck...

 

...coolest scene ever.

 

Well, one of the coolest scenes ever.

One of the coolest lines too. I'm paraphrasing here:

 

"Whatever's left of him rustles as it leaves."

 

Creepy.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

I just read Dark Knight Returns and Dark Knight Strikes back can't touch it. I hope like hell that it wasn't supposed to be some sort of sequel or something.

[Guest BA_Baracus]

It was.

 

No doubt DKR was a lot better.

 

Isn't that part where the plane flies into the towers and lights Gotham on fire pretty spooky now considering September 11th?

[Guest Sassquatch]

The plane flying into the building is a bit morbid but considering how it all went down, I don't really think of it that much.

 

I think what is eerie is how the Russian nuclear warhead detonated and not even Superman was able to curtail it from detonating outside of the US. The blast caused an electromagnetic pulse, which caused electronic device to go out. The plane then fly's into a large building in Gotham City and chaos ensues.

 

I think it is interesting to note how some of the people reacted to the event. Some people tried to risk their lives and help out the situation in any way they could. Then you had other people taking advantage of the situation and going mad and acting like harden criminals by trying to rob one another of their valuables or just trying to hurt people.

 

Just something to look at considering how the people in New York reacted to 9/11.

 

Something else that I think is notable is the relationship that Superman and Green Arrow have in the DKR. Of course this was an Elseworld's story but then 10 years later after the DKR is written, in the regular DCU Supes and GA have what looked like a final showdown between the two when GA went rogue as a cover-up and ran into Supes. A fight breaks out between them and the next thing you know the plane is going down in flames with Ollie trapped inside the flaming mess while Supes is forced to watch from above.

 

When GA #101 came out, it was almost foreshadowing back then with GA and Supes. Then GA's son Connor took over the hood and Oliver was thought of as dead.

 

I actually thought Kevin Smith would do something like have GA return with a missing arm at one point when I read how big of a fan of the DKR Smith is.

 

Just some food for thought.

[Guest J*ingus]

Based on the advice of yourself and others, I went and read Kingdom Come last night. Well done, a good little series (even though I still liked Marvels better, but anyway).

 

But what it made me realize was this: DKSB is Miller's remake of Kingdom Come. It's an almost identical story: the aging Justice Leaguers, having abandoned their quests for good years ago, must now return and fight to save the world from their legacy. Miller's version is just a LOT more pessimistic.

[Guest Sassquatch]

DSKB is a remake of Kingdom Come?

 

Not even close.

 

You missed the one element that separates the two series by a mile:

 

Compassion for humanity.

 

In Kingdom Come, the old heroes show everyone that the "goody two shoes way" of fighting crime STILL works rather than the new gen heroes way of vaporizing everything in their way no matter which side the people are on.

 

The new gen heroes in Kingdom Come are more like Batman and his cronies in the DKSB. In Kingdom Come, Waid shows the reader that the Punisher style way of dealing with problems does not solve all of the problems and that the old way of dealing with super villains still does work. The "aging Justice League" in Kingdom Come are preventing the exact thing that Batman is doing in the DKSB by stopping the gen heroes who are willing to let hundreds to thousands of innocent people die just so they can capture/kill a couple super villains.

 

The new gen heroes do not care about the innocents and are only trying to get the job done and if causality’s come along the way, then so be it.

 

The Bat Squad in the DKSB is trying to bring down an evil government and if causality’s come along the way, then so be it.

 

Yeah, I can really see the comparisons between the "aging Justice League" in Kingdom Come and immediately think of the Bat-Squad from the DKSB.

 

*rolls eyes*

 

"Secondly, I did think that Batman's seemingly cruel or selfish actions made sense in DKSB. I thought it was explained best when he said something like, "I was out fighting muggers while they took over the entire world!" Like you said, this is a Batman who is ready and willing to make compromises. This time, he had to sit by and let Metropolis be destroyed, because otherwise his scheme to save the entire world wouldn't have come off as planned."

 

- Jingus 9/9/02

 

 

So let me get this straight:

 

Two weeks ago you made the comment about how "Batman's seemingly cruel or selfish actions made sense in DKSB" but then later on you come back with an entirely new analysis. If you are comparing the new gen heroes in Kingdom Come to the Bat Squad in the DKSB then there are comparisons. If you are comparing the "aging Justice League" to the Bat Squad then you need to read both books a couple more times. The old heroes are “fighting the muggers” so to speak by showing the people in Kingdom Come that the old rules and morals that the heroes followed still work in an age of senseless and out of control violence as the means to win battle.

 

Read the two stories again.

 

Then you might be able to see the difference between the two stories.

 

Think before you post fucking drivel like this as well:

 

"Geez, it's just paper with pictures printed on it.."

 

- Jingus

 

 

If you feel this way then do not post in the folder. It's that simple. It's already hard enough to get people to post in this folder. We don't need a Smarts admin shitting all over the folder and basically telling everyone that the discussions that take place in this folder do not matter. That will not help anyone and in fact, it is an insult to the comic book fans that do post in this folder that wish to talk about comic books in whatever manner they wish.

 

Thanks.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Larry Groznic lives!

 

<desperately tries to stifle a gigglefit>

[Guest Sassquatch]

If there is one topic I will never touch upon it's the endless debate about who is better:

 

Hal or Kyle?

 

I feel bad for Ron Marz to this day for the mess he had been involved with H.E.A.T., which went above and beyond the "friendly dispute" between fans and creators.

 

The man got death threats and threats of kidnapping and raping his daughters on several occasions. There is a line to be drawn and sending photos to you of your wife in your bedroom laying on her bed reading a book is that line.

 

That is going too far.

[Guest J*ingus]

Wow. I'm getting "arguing about Kawada with Jubuki" flashbacks.

 

I will admit that "remake" was a bad term. I'll restate it: upon reading Kingdom Come, I strongly got the feeling that DKSB was a rebuke towards that book. It felt like Miller read that one, muttered "bullshit", and proceeded to write his own vastly different take with a similar general storyline.

 

If you feel this way then do not post in the folder. It's that simple. It's already hard enough to get people to post in this folder. We don't need a Smarts admin shitting all over the folder and basically telling everyone that the discussions that take place in this folder do not matter. That will not help anyone and in fact, it is an insult to the comic book fans that do post in this folder that wish to talk about comic books in whatever manner they wish.

 

Geez, calm down. It's just a message board with words posted on it.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

Geez, calm down. It's just a message board with words posted on it.

 

Don't forget that there are pictures too.

[Guest DrTom]

restate it: upon reading Kingdom Come, I strongly got the feeling that DKSB was a rebuke towards that book.

I got the same impression.

 

Kingdom Come was just a lot better. There's a huge difference in mood, but I can see quite a few similarities. Reading TDKSA, particularly the third book, I couldn't shake the feeling that Miller was hocking a big loogie on what he felt were the shortcomings of KC. It's a shame that he forgot how to tell a good, cohesive story along the way, and instead decided to spit on something that was better than the overhyped garbage he put out.

[Guest Some Guy]

I can also answer you Death of Superman question:

 

- Batman was still recovering from a broken back at the time of the Doomsday attack and he was preparing for his return with teh cape and cowl.

Are you sure about the timing on this? I rememeber Batman being in the "Funeral for a Friend" story. I think he got his back broken after Superman got killed.

I think "Knightfall" started while Superman was dead and Superman was alive and kickig again by the time that Bruce Wayne became Batman again. My old comics are at my dad's house so I can't go check though.

[Guest Sassquatch]

My mistake.

 

Superman was killed by Doomsday in January of 1993 in issue #75 of Superman (2nd series).

 

Batman's back was broken by Bane in July of 1993 in issue #497 of Batman.

 

Batman was dealing with Bane’s arrival into Gotham in Batman #489 which was when Bane made his presence known by attacking Killer Crock and breaking his arms. Before Doomsday attacked Metropolis, Batman was in the coming down with a case of the flu and was unable to fight Doomsday. He would not have had a chance against Doomsday in his condition.

 

Batman did make an appearance in Justice League #70 "Funeral for a Friend" with Robin, which was shortly before he had his back broken by Bane. The writers did not show Batman in his sickly and exhausted state in his appearances in "FfaF" but if you were reading Batman or Detective Comics, he was in bad shape.

[Guest BA_Baracus]

Well...

 

...if there's one thing you can say about DKSB, it's that Miller was obviously trying to be controversial, and with all the arguments over the book (not just on this message board, but all over) he definitely achieved that goal.

[Guest HellSpawn]

Well...

 

...if there's one thing you can say about DKSB, it's that Miller was obviously trying to be controversial, and with all the arguments over the book (not just on this message board, but all over) he definitely achieved that goal.

Well...

 

You are right. On some level.

 

But remember one single angle that almost killed a franchise... two words: Spider Clone.

 

Brought controversy.

Brought sales, at least at the beginning.

Brought spinoff series.

Brought new character... Kaine, Ben Reilly.

 

and at the very end...

 

Brought back the Green Goblin, a guy who was dead for several years.

 

So, tell me... it was worthy?

 

Miller before DKSB was chosen as one of the ultimate Batman writers... after DKSB, Im sure several people is changin their opinion about that.

 

Imagine how much worthy is the controversy if... Jeph Loeb, Kevin Smith, Greg Rucka and a few more new names are wrting better stories than Miller.

[Guest BA_Baracus]

One mediocre story (in my opinion DKSB wasn't bad) doesn't change what Miller has achieved in the past.

 

And what the hell did Kevin Smith ever do with Batman?

[Guest HellSpawn]

I didnt say Kevin wrote Batman... I mean he is writing better stories right now than Miller's right now.

 

but if you want... he wrote a Green Arrow with Batman... I think it was 5 or 6.

 

And about Miller, like I said on an early post... In MY BOOK, Miller is a great writer, so, when I read Miller's stories I want/hope great stories... not just plain good or like you said an "it was'nt bad" story.

 

Lets translate that to a wrestling world....

 

Do you like Benoit or Angle or Hitman or HBK or Flair... will you be happy with a *** match? or do you expect a 4+ match?

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Sassquatch, what's your opinion of JLA: Tower of Babel? I'm curious because you like Batman, you know way more about comics than can possibly be healthy, and it's one of my favourite stories - not for the Ra's plot, which was pretty lame even as Ra's plots go, but for the characterisation of Batman. Especially in the ending and the epilogues.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

Actually, I have been tempted to give Twoer of Babel a look, but for some reason I never do.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

It's brilliant. You should. Tom just did, after months of prodding, and he loved it.

[Guest Sassquatch]

Marney, I am one of the biggest Batman fans around and I could talk about him all day. Batman has also been one of DC's most well written characters since his debut in 1939 which says a lot considering all of the crap that the company has put out for decades now.

 

The "Tower of Babel" story takes the heroes through Hell and back and makes them feel things that could have ripped their minds apart and killed them as well. The Justice League has some of the DCU's most powerful characters on it and they are looked at as the saviors of the world and the beings that could stomp a mudhole in anyone that would dare cross them. But the story shows the readers that someone with the means and the knowledge can just as easily take them down if possessing the right means.

 

In the event that the heroes turned evil for whatever the reason, Batman made it so that he could stop them permanently if he had to. Batman was just covering his bases so to speak. It's human instinct to want to control the great power in front of them. Batman showed the readers that even though he is a member of the one of the most elite groups in the DCU, that deep down, he is still a man amongst Gods. It is what makes Batman unique on the JLA and separates him from everyone else on the team.

 

The story asks the question about "what would happen if these contingency plans of Batman's fell into the wrong hands" and the results are astonishing to say the least.

 

Heroes like Superman, Wonder Woman, the Flash and the Green Lantern are not supposed to be violated and raped so to speak as the way they were. They are Gods, they are not supposed to be at the mercy of a normal human being. They are on an entirely higher level than human beings. The JLA could have killed Batman on the spot for the role he played in them being beaten the way they were. It gave the JLA a nasty wake-up call and showed them that they are not invincible and can be taken down if they had to be by a normal human being like Batman no less. No one wants to know what their flaws or failures are. There are egos to be maintained and confidence to be held. It is even harder for people like the JLA to accept.

 

Batman did what anyone else in his position would/should have done. He made sure to have a plan "B" on hand if he ever needed one in regards to beating the JLA just in case they turned evil. But his plans fell into the wrong hands and his teammates were systematically beaten and mindfucked by Ra's Al Ghul who showed the JLA that they are not as powerful as they thought as it pertains to the human race.

 

The ending where half the JLA wants to rip Batman's limbs off is just surreal to see. These guys got their egos and ass's handed to them and they want to take it out on Batman. In a way, you feel bad for Batman because he only did what he thought was right in the event that the heroes did turn evil. It was fascinating to see the JLA taken out so systematically and with such ease as well. It knocked them all down a peg or two and it probably scared the fuck out of them. They are not supposed to be hurt like this by human beings. It breaks their confidence down and seeing someone like Plastic Man verbally attack Batman for his hand in the attacks, is the point where the reader sees just how insecure some of these Gods amongst men are. Being around a guy who could kill them with one well swoop is not easy to deal with. Especially when you thought you was invincible to just about everything. Batman is like the kid who you use to pick on but is now this buffed out giant who could easily kick your ass and go on with his business. It's not easy to get over that feeling after thinking you were untouchable for so long.

 

I liked the "Tower of Babel" storyline and felt that it was the best JLA stories since the JLA's inception in 1996. The "Rock of the Ages" storyline was disappointing IMO and the Prometheus debacle was given a shitty ending. This story was also one of Batman's defining moments in comic books and this story will be talked about for years to come. One of the best Batman related stories I have read since No Man's Land back in 1999.

 

Awesome stuff all around.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

The JLA could have killed Batman on the spot for the role he played in them being beaten the way they were.

This is the only line I disagree with. I'm sure if they had tried, they'd have ended up in even worse trouble than before, if not dead themselves. Like Beetle said in Kingdom Come:

"Does Batman ever not have a plan?"

[Guest Sassquatch]

Sorry for the editing job Marney. I didn't like some of the comments I made in my post and I just read your response with one of my edited out comments.

 

My apologies.

[Guest Sassquatch]

What I meant with the comment you quoted was where at the end, Batman is getting chewed out by the JLA. Most likely he *might* have had a plan to stop the heroes in the event that he was killed by them.

 

But it would have been pretty hard to beat a pissed off Superman, Flash and Green Lantern in the position he was at the end of the story.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Yeah, but that's just pure physical strength. Batman would know that could never happen anyway because it's against Superman's principles to kill.

 

The ending was great, too. When Oracle says, "What you've done... there's such a ripple effect. If you meant for that to happen, admit it... say something."

And Batman just cuts the transmission.

 

I loved that. It epitomises the character: always one step ahead of everyone else, convinced he alone knows what should be done in any situation, and willing to use and manipulate even his friends to make the world a better place - by his definition. You take his way or the highway. He never justifies himself and he never explains or excuses his actions.

 

Also, the epilogue with Lex Luthor was superb.

"Don't confuse me with Superman, Luthor. He's the nice one. You come to Gotham again and I will turn all my attention to you and I'll strip you bare."

[Guest Sassquatch]

"Do you think I wouldn't be able to find out who you are and ruin your life? I am the President of the United States and I can make you disappear with just a few phone calls."

 

- President Lex Luthor to Batman in an issue of Superman

 

 

I am finding the Batman/Lex Luthor feud to be much more interesting then the Superman feud with Lex as of late. Supes can't/won't touch Lex because he is the President. But Batman has shown time after time that he is one step ahead of everyone else and taking on the President of the United States would be one Hell of a mind game.

[Guest Sassquatch]

Batman is a little fish in a big pond. He has to make up for his lack of super powers and that means that he has to be ahead of the game and have every possible base of his covered in any type of situation.

 

That's probably why Batman is one of the most fascinating characters in the JLA to read about.

 

Knowing Bats, he probably has a couple nukes hidden on the JLA Watchtower as part of one of his contingency plans.

[Guest pochorenella]

I've read pretty much every JLA TPB since the latest relaunch up until the "Tower of Babel" story and I have to agree that it was the best one, better than the one with the martians, better that "Rock of Ages", waaay better than the one with Prometheus (started out pretty cool, but the way he was defeated?? WTF?).

 

What I want to bring to people's atenttion is how similar Batman's measures were to the "Xavier Protocols" that Professor X had as a contingency plan for his X-Men. He supposedly had a countermeasure for each and every X-Men there was, also in case he had to defeat them. We never truly saw what those measures were per se, because that Nimrod/Mastermold guy hacked into his files and sorta used them but not really. What I find interesting, other than this storyline happening way before the "Tower of Babel" one, is that the X-Men never got nearly as angry or resentful towards Xavier as the JLA guys were towards Batman. Maybe they understood this as a fatherly thing (you know, because they're sort of family, unlike the JLA which is a team)? Am I reading to much into this? Am I nuts?

 

Anyway, cool JLA story there, with Batman as the undisputed star (as it should always be IMO). I also recommend it...

 

BUT I STILL THINK THE AVENGERS ARE BETTER THAN THE JLA!!

 

Sorry, had to get that off my chest. (Hopefully Kurt Busiek and George Perez will back me up with the upcoming Avengers/JLA) crossover!)

[Guest Sassquatch]

Prometheus's debut in the JLA was the mother of all fuck-ups in Grant Morrison's JLA run. Prometheus was getting the pimping as if he was the next Thanos/Darkseid/Mageto/Joker/etc. DC was advertising Prometheus's debut as much as humanly possible and by the time his debut issue in JLA arrived, the interest in Prometheus was at a fever pitch with fans.

 

It's a shame that Prometheus bombed as badly as he did because he had the potential to be DC's "next big badass villain" that they have not been able to produce since...the Cyborg.

 

Prometheus's debut ranks up there with fans finding out that the Quake Master who was supposedly responsible for Gotham City's massive earthquake was none other than the Ventriloquist and Scarface.

 

Truly disappointing.

 

"Am I reading to much into this? Am I nuts?"

 

- poch

 

 

No you are not reading into the analysis too much.

 

The X-Men have always been a group. If one of them suffers then the rest of the team will suffer/help out. With the JLA you have the mother of all ego pots with each one of the members having achieved individual success at one time or another. The X-Men are like children in a way in how they understood why Professor X had made contingency plans in the event that his students turned evil. The JLA on the other hand are all grown men and women who are perceived as Gods by people all over the world. The heroes themselves think that they are invincible at times and can beat the odds. But Batman took the JLAers down a couple pegs by showing them their weaknesses and what can happen to them if those weaknesses were to ever be exploited.

 

No one wants to feel weak, especially several of the mightiest men and women in the world. They have an image to maintain and a confidence level that must always be balanced.

 

The ass kicking's that the JLA have taken in the past were multiplied by 1000 when Ra's Al Ghul found out how to exploit the heroes weaknesses. The JLA felt pain that they had never felt before and were completely and totally helpless and were at the mercy of Ra's and his forces at one point.

 

Talk about an ego kill.

 

The X-Men realize that they could someday turn to evil for whatever the reason and Professor X was only looking out for the well being of his students who would rather die then be a threat to Professor X's dream of mutant's and human's being able to live together peacefully.

 

I think the Dark Phoenix Saga was the perfect example of just how far the X-Men are willing to go to make sure that the dream they grew up believing, would never be damaged in any way. Jean's sacrifice for the destruction of a galaxy that she destroyed was admirable in her willingness to accept the blame.

 

Professor X taught his students well.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Rising Stars touches on this same theme, but although it's praised to the skies for some reason it's pretty much the same infantile pap as Stormwatch and The Authority. A little better, to be fair, but not by much.