Dark Knight Strikes Back

[Guest Sassquatch]

I do not like the Authority or Stormwatch.

 

I am not a fan of Warren Ellis or his work. I downright despise Mark Millar and he is the perfect example of what is wrong with today's comic book creators.

 

Rising Stars is a decent read considering all the shit that was being out when the book came out (1999). 1999 was the year that violence in almost every panel became the "in" thing to draw and write about. Unlike the Authority and Stormwatch, the Rising Stars was not about senseless violence and gore with some words thrown in between it all. The other two books were all about shock value and gore. Rising Stars had a story behind each fight and was not just thrown out there to please the vampires. The book kept the fans while guessing while also maintaining a level of interest in the ongoing saga of what/who the Specials are and whether or not they were good or evil. The book had a flow to it that gave the reader the idea that something big might happen in the next issue while continuing with the ongoing story. The big fights and the drama took second place to the story while the fights and the violence in the other two books took center stage. They were sold on the foundation of all out carnage and gore while the Rising Stars book had a little mix of something for everyone.

 

The praise that Rising Stars received was expected due to the pimpage that JMS received for his work on Babylon 5 and the fact that the comic industry was in shambles creatively for the most part. So Rising Stars comes along and knocks everyone on their ass and it becomes "the" book of 1999 and one of the few bright spots for the new millenium amongst a sea of shit.

 

JMS is a very good writer and has single handedly helped revive the Spider-Man regular MU franchise, which was a feat that many people thought was impossible.

 

Rising Stars had the potential to be one of the new millenium's best books but due to JMS's crazy schedule and Top Cow being lazy, the book stalled and all the steam it had going on in 1999/early 2000 died off. Now the fans that are still with the book since it's inception are waiting for JMS to finally wrap it up rather then continue with his 2 issues a year schedule.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Yeah, it was better than it could have been, but I still found it pretty dull and predictable overall. Solving every problem in the Middle East by raising up some fertile soil? Whatever. That's the kind of simplistic nonsense that made me compare it to Stormwatch, and that's why Batman is so much better as a character. He's limited, and he fails. A lot. (Cf Joker's Apprentice, Venom, and The Killing Joke, among others.) Since his failures are often a result of his code of honour, they add to the character. That's why I like him.

[Guest Sassquatch]

"Solving every problem in the Middle East by raising up some fertile soil? Whatever."

 

- Marney

 

 

Hey, even guys like Jim "My God and Your God" Starlin had the occasional brain farts. Luckily with guys like him and JMS, they are few and far. But you are right, that was pretty over the top, all things considered.

 

"That's the kind of simplistic nonsense that made me compare it to Stormwatch, and that's why Batman is so much better as a character."

 

- Marney

 

 

I'd agree with you on the comparison to Stormwatch if Rising Stars followed that same story telling style. Stormwatch is all about shock value and no long-term story telling which is the exact opposite from Rising Stars. That does not necessarily make Rising Stars a great book and with the example you gave above, I can see why some people could compare Stormwatch and Rising Stars in the same vein.

 

Batman is simply one of the most consistently well-written comic book characters of all time and not a lot of other books can say the same.

 

"He's limited, and he fails. A lot. (Cf Joker's Apprentice, Venom, and The Killing Joke, among others.) Since his failures are often a result of his code of honour, they add to the character. That's why I like him."

 

- Marney

 

 

The Joker's Apprentice is a good example of Batman's limitations as a super hero.

 

Venom *is* the story that made Batman human and easy to relate to by many new fans. People are always feeling the pressure to be the best at what they do and as evidenced in Venom, it is no different for super heroes. Batman gives into his insecurity about being weak physically and decides to give in and take the drugs to become stronger. I can imagine that the story also angered/upset a lot of fans (which it did at first) because Batman was always looked at as the one guy that fans could imagine themselves as. When Batman took the Venom, it told fans that you can't get by just working out like a madman. You need that extra boost and Batman took it in the hopes that he could hang with the big boys and be able to break large rocks and move huge boulders.

 

Great stuff and a perfect example of one of Batman's shortcoming's.

 

I don't really see how the Killing Joke was a failure on Batman's track record. If you are talking about Barbara Gordon being shot and crippled by the Joker, then I have to disagree. He was not around at the Gordon's place at the time and as far as I could tell, he had no way of knowing that the Joker would attack the Gordon residence.

 

If you could elaborate on how the Killing Joke was a failure for Batman then please do. I'm curious as to why you think that Marney.

 

Another example could be Batman letting Jean Le-Paul take on the mantle of Batman while passing over Nightwing and in the process, Azrael tarnished the Batman name with his Punisher-like tactics and unstable ideas. I know I *might* be going over your head with this example but Batman #424 is another issue where Batman comes up short. The girlfriend of a drug lord's son is beaten and then later kills herself because Batman did not have enough evidence to convict him of anything. Robin ends up either killing/letting the drug lord drop to his death from his apartment, which signaled the end of Todd's innocence in any sense.

 

I'm kind've surprised that you did not mention "A Death In The Family" as one of Batman's failures as a hero.

 

Or am I missing some Jason Todd joke?

 

 

"Since his failures are often a result of his code of honour, they add to the character. That's why I like him."

 

- Marney

 

 

You could say the same thing about Spider-Man but I'll save that for another discussion. But it is always fascinating to see how someone like Batman can learn from his failures. Batman does not fail often but when he does fail, it is not pretty and the results are usually devastating.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

I don't really see how the Killing Joke was a failure on Batman's track record. If you are talking about Barbara Gordon being shot and crippled by the Joker, then I have to disagree. He was not around at the Gordon's place at the time and as far as I could tell, he had no way of knowing that the Joker would attack the Gordon residence.

Essentially I was thinking of Barbara, yeah. I wouldn't call it a real failure myself, on second thoughts, although Batman probably would - he didn't catch up to him in time, didn't prevent this, didn't prevent that... anyway, the ending, with the two of them laughing together in the rain, was fantastic. TKJ is one of my favourites for that scene alone.

I think part of the reason I didn't get into Rising Stars was simply because it didn't have that resonance for me. I've been reading Batman so long that a bunch of new characters who die off fairly quickly over a couple of short books simply don't affect me as much. It isn't badly written, it just tries to show too much too quickly and none of the characters get enough screen time to make me care about their deaths.

Plus I've always found that Witchbladeish art really plastic and distracting. It doesn't look bad, it just doesn't draw me in very much.

 

I'm kind've surprised that you did not mention "A Death In The Family" as one of Batman's failures as a hero.

Or am I missing some Jason Todd joke?

Yeah, you missed a Jason Todd joke. <g> I hated all the Robins except the last one, Carrie Kelley. She was brilliant.

No, seriously, I never saw that death as Batman's failure, because Jason only got killed because he disobeyed his explicit orders. And I really hated Jason Todd and I wanted him to die anyway. The Azrael thing was definitely Batman's fault, though, and it's a good example.

[Guest Sassquatch]

"I think part of the reason I didn't get into Rising Stars was simply because it didn't have that resonance for me. I've been reading Batman so long that a bunch of new characters that die off fairly quickly over a couple of short books simply don't affect me as much. It isn't badly written, it just tries to show too much too quickly and none of the characters get enough screen time to make me care about their deaths."

 

- Marney

 

 

The main plot in the book is that the Specials are all fighting one another in a war and we both know that causality’s come fast and plenty in wars. I look at it that way and as long as the main characters are kept alive and not killed off pointlessly, the book will be fine. I can see where you are coming from with your reasoning for why you didn't feel anything for the heroes who died and in a way, you really aren't supposed to because some of the heroes/villains lost in the war are meant to be expendable.

 

"Plus I've always found that Witchbladeish art really plastic and distracting. It doesn't look bad, it just doesn't draw me in very much."

 

- Marney

 

 

Heh.

 

It's funny but a lot of the girls I have spoken to about Image feel the same way. These chicks are not the bitter BBW's who wish they *could* somewhat resemble the Bad Girlz in comic books in real life and I always found that funny. But a lot of guys (myself included) got sick of Lady Death and Vamperilla real fast when they hit the stores and the same thing happens to the Image Titty's Brigade. No substance or story, just big friggin tits with a head and some legs attached to them. Sex sells but after a while, it gets old with the same old shit and if there is nothing keep readers (key word) coming back, then they will drop the book.

 

However, I was always a fan of Jim Balent's Catwoman and felt that Balent was the best Catwoman artist of all time and I don't think anyone has/will come close to matching his work anytime soon.

 

My girlfriend feels the same way about the Image chicks in general. Just like you Marney, she is one of the biggest Batman fans around and when I found out that the former co-captain of my old high school cheerleading team was a comic book fan, my jaw hit the ground. We were walking into the local comic shop one day and she saw an issue of Witchblade where Pezzini was wearing nothing and only had her lower regions covered by the Witchblade while she was covering her BIG OL TITTY'S~! with her hands.

 

"I guess some artists make up for their lack of a cock by drawing chicks with huge and ugly tits that would make some strippers blush."

 

- my girlfriend

 

 

I got a chuckle from that.

 

"Yeah, you missed a Jason Todd joke. <g>"

 

- Marney

 

 

I figured as much.

 

 

" I hated all the Robins except the last one, Carrie Kelley. She was brilliant."

 

- Marney

 

 

Carrie was something new and was a nice change-up from the status quo. She was someone that the female fans could be proud of with her take-no-shit-yet-is-a-smart-cookie persona. I liked her as well. Miller *did* do a decent job with his handling of Carrie in the DKSB which is probably the only positive thing I can say about the book.

 

"No, seriously, I never saw that death as Batman's failure, because Jason only got killed because he disobeyed his explicit orders. And I really hated Jason Todd and I wanted him to die anyway."

 

- Marney

 

 

I was looking at it as Batman picked a bad apple as Robin and in the end, the kid got beaten and blown up due to his own stupidity but which could have never happened had Batman never chose him as his new partner.

 

Actually, now that I think about it, Batman picking Todd to be the next Robin was a failure of his that ended up with Todd being buried 6 feet under (I'm being serious).

 

Oh and Marney, join the club. Todd represented everything that a sidekick should *not* be which was what Starlin was going for when he made Todd the new Robin. That kid was so fucking annoying that I even wanted Ma Gunn to kill the little fuck when he fought her. Just a total waste of space that was killed at the right time. It also gave the Joker an edge to him that just helped him look like even more a bad ass sociopath.

 

Since you're a Bat fan (and this goes out to everyone as well) was Batman's inability to turn Ra's daughter Talia to the good guys side and live with him happily ever after, his own fault or was/is Talia just rotten by nature?

 

I also think that Batman knocking Talia up and leaving her to take care of the kid (i.e. dumping the little babe off to an orphanage) was somewhat a failure of Batman's but again, it could go either way.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

I don't think Talia's rotten by nature, in fact I don't even think that about Ra's. He has a morality I'm willing to call different rather than genuinely evil. He doesn't delight in death, he just considers it necessary. Talia's a very strong character divided between love and loyalty, and I don't think the side she ends up on is Batman's decision to make. It's hers.

As for the baby in Son of the Demon, that wasn't Batman's fault at all because Talia lied to him to make him go away. She said she'd lost the child while he was away with her father.

 

Witchblade art - some of it is the balloon-like breasts, yeah, but I didn't think that was too bad in Rising Stars. It's just that that particular art style makes it look like they're all plastic dolls instead of real people. They have no skin, instead it's weird glossy latex stuff. The textures just look wrong and I don't get a sense of emotion or strain from the characters, just... blah. I don't know how else to describe it. It's blah.

[Guest BA_Baracus]

Hey guys...wanna' see the best Batman story of all time?

 

[bA lures Sass and Marney into a dark room, locks the door behind them and turns on the movie projector which is playing "Batman and Robin".]

 

Bwahahahaaa! Ah...I'm so evil.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

<just watches Alicia and Uma, and daydreams>

[Guest Sassquatch]

"I don't think Talia's rotten by nature, in fact I don't even think that about Ra's. He has a morality I'm willing to call different rather than genuinely evil. He doesn't delight in death, he just considers it necessary."

 

- Marney

 

 

Ra's is dedicated to the goal of ending the political and ecological disorder on Earth by taking control of the planet himself. Ra's is also under the belief that in order to achieve his goal that he must "start over" which means wiping out 2/3s of the Earth's population so that he can cleanse the Earth of the savages and ingrates that inhabit it. Ra's is willing to resort to ruthless methods in order to achieve his goal as was evidenced when he helped engineer the genocidal Contagion Virus that killed thousands of Gotham City residents a few years back.

 

Thousands of innocent people died because of one man's goal to make a better world for him to live in. Ra's might not take pleasure in his acts of crime/terrorism, but he is still willing to wipe out the majority of the Earth's inhabitants so that he can start over and rebuild society the way he sees fit.

 

Ra's was also the silent leader of the League of Assassins for many years as well. The League were known for the vicious methods that they would use in order to assassinate their intended victims. Ra's was the leader of the League for many years until Batman took the League down in retaliation for death of Batwomam who had been murdered by the League after they had found out her secret identity. Ra's was the one who ordered the hit on Kathy Kane after he had discovered Batman's identity and had his men follow Bruce Wayne's close friends. The League found out that Kathy was Batwoman (who had retired earlier) and Ra's decided to send Batman a message about how he was either against Ra's or else he was for Ra's.

 

On the matter of if Ra's is crazy, evil, or just a guy who thinks differently from everyone else can go either way. Ra's has shown in the past that he can fit either profile mentioned above. While Ra's is much more reserved than the Joker, Two-Face or the Riddler, he is still someone that is very dangerous and is willing to do anything to get what he wants.

 

Talia might not be evil by nature but her continuing to affiliate herself with her father is not doing her any favors. I will however retract what I said about how Talia might be evil by nature. That is a bit extreme for Talia who has (not that I know of) done anything truly evil do deserve being lumped in that category of being an evil bitch.

 

"Talia's a very strong character divided between love and loyalty, and I don't think the side she ends up on is Batman's decision to make."

 

- Marney

 

 

Talia is a very strong character who IMO needs to be fleshed out more because there is just too much mystery and intrigue surrounding her that maybe a One-Shot might help clear up.

 

"You're either with me or else you are against me."

 

The on/off again relationship that Batman has with Talia is interesting because it shows Batman's human side and how he is just like every other man who falls in love with the girl that your mother warned you about. Talia affiliation with her father is also interesting to look at when you analyze the Batman/Talia relationship. Batman is known as one of the DCU's most anal retentive bastards, yet he is soft for this woman who's father is Public Enemy #1 and plans on ruling/killing off the Earth's population.

 

Batman spurned Catwoman who was a petty thief who was never truly evil or bad to begin with, yet he has a bigger hard on for the daughter of one of the most evil men in the DCU.

 

Love will make people do crazy things is the message I see here. Even Batman is human and falls for the "wrong girl."

 

"Witchblade art - some of it is the balloon-like breasts, yeah, but I didn't think that was too bad in Rising Stars. It's just that that particular art style makes it look like they're all plastic dolls instead of real people. They have no skin, instead it's weird glossy latex stuff. The textures just look wrong and I don't get a sense of emotion or strain from the characters, just... blah. I don't know how else to describe it. It's blah."

 

- Marney

 

 

I agree with you on the idea that the characters show no real emotion in the book. Frank Quietly, the former artist for the Authority and the current artist for the New X-Men are guilty of this and is one of the reasons why I despise his work and think he is overrated. The characters look like they are shitting a brick when he tries to convey a sense of despair on their faces or else they do not show any emotion after they had a limb ripped off. It's like watching a Keanu Reeves marathon sometimes.

 

The first 8 to 12 issues of Witchblade were actually pretty good in terms of plot and storylines. But when the Witchblade/Darkness "Family Ties" crossover came out, the book just went totally downhill in terms of interesting plots and the book became just another T&A book from Top Tits...er, Top Cow. The book *had* something going on in the beginning and had an interesting storyline. But then Sara had to be half/full nude in each issue/cover and the sex appeal/hot babe sell got old and the book dropped in sales which were still high but a drop was still noticeable.

 

Jim Balent was guilty of the Image style drawn chicks but the only thing that separated him from that pile of trash was that Balent had a good writer in Jo Duffy. Duffy showed fanboys that a chick can look good but can also be a babe with a brain who can kick some serious ass. Duffy didn't make Catwoman too chickish or too butch for guys or gals to read and the sales for the book in its first 4/5 years were very good. The book became on of DC's most consistently well-soled books until around issue #50 when DC decided to go the Bad Girlz route with Selina and decided to have her get naked in nearly every story with no interesting plot of interesting storylines.

 

*day dreams about Marney with Alicia and Uma*

 

*leaves the room*

 

 

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

I got to rea Tower of Babylon yesterday and I enjoyed it. I really don't have any complaints and if I did, I would be looking to nitpick. When did this story come out, and

 

 

 

 

 

SPOILERS

 

 

 

Is Batman still out of the JLA? If I were to ever make a movie about the JLA, I would have based it around that story. For some reason I always thought that the JLA was too powerful, but I guess they can be pretty compelling when written correctly.

[Guest Sassquatch]

"When did this story come out, and is Batman still out of the JLA?"

 

- pinnacleofallthingsmanly

 

 

The "Tower of Babel" story was released in late 2000 and is out in trade paper back. Batman is with the still with the JLA and is currently missing with the rest of the JLA in the "Search For Aquaman" storyline that is going on right now.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

So Batman was reinstated or something?

 

I think I would have been more satisified with the Death of Superman story if it would have been done like the Tower of Babel. I think writing a story about a big monster that beats the shit out of Superman was a poor way to kill him and I think bringing him back to life sucked even more. If business was bad and they needed to shock people or whatever, they could have done the Tower of Babel story and just replaced Ra's Al Ghul with Lex Luthor. That was Luthor triumphs over Superman and you can getthe added shock of Batman being the one responsible for his death. If they then wanted to weasel out and not have Superman stay dead, they could have made up some bullshit about the red kryptonite not working like Batma thought it would or something like that. That would have been some big time stuff. Not only does Superman die, but Batman is the one responsible. They could have done their world without Superman stuff and they could have had backlash towards Batman or even had some people sympathetic towards Batman. There would have been so much more they could have done. If they still wanted to introduce Azrael, they could have had Batman retire or something like that and have him take over the role of Batman. There would have been so much they could have done. Instead they just have a big monster come in and beat up on Superman and the B Team Justic League. The fight itself wasn't even that great as far as I'm concerned. Instead of reading it and thinking that Doomsday must be a bad mofo to make Superman bleed, I was thinking that I was reading some bullshit. The only good thing I can take from the story was Superman trying to save people during the fight and protect Metroplois, but I just couldn't buy Superman dying because someone possesed brute strength and a invulnerability.

[Guest Sassquatch]

"So Batman was reinstated or something?"

 

- pinnacleofallthingsmanly

 

 

Batman was never really fired per say but he was on very thin ice with the rest of the JLA after the Tower of Babel debacle. He continued to accompany the JLA on their adventures after the story had concluded and is now missing in action with the rest of the JLA currently.

 

"If business was bad and they needed to shock people or whatever, they could have done the Tower of Babel story and just replaced Ra's Al Ghul with Lex Luthor."

 

- pinnacleofallthingsmanly

 

 

Business was booming for the comic industry in the early '90's. The "Death of Superman" storyline is like the 8.1 that RAW popped when it had the "This is your life Rock" segment that was the last time a WWF show did such a huge rating. The "DOS" storyline is the last time a comic book would make such huge sales as the "DOS" storyline did and right around the time that the storyline was ending, the market fell through and everything went to shit for comic books, creatively and financially. 1994 is the year when everything went to shit because the comic companies (mainly Marvel) had been overspending like crazy and made a ton of bad investments that winded up causing a lot of companies to go out of business or to the verge of bankruptcy.

 

I did not like the way that DC killed off Superman either which just reeked of Marvel's stench and many long time Superman readers were outraged at the way that he was killed and you could not blame them.

[Guest Sassquatch]

The dynamics to the Batman/Ra's/Talia triangle are strikingly familiar to that of Shakespeare's "Romeo and Juliet" with all things considered.

[Guest Sassquatch]

Was Batman justified to create the countermeasures, and was the League's response because of a breach of trust, or a shot to the ego?

 

My original statement on the storyline answers your questions:

 

The "Tower of Babel" story takes the heroes through Hell and back and makes them feel things that could have ripped their minds apart and killed them as well. The Justice League has some of the DCU's most powerful characters on it and they are looked at as the saviors of the world and the beings that could stomp a mudhole in anyone that would dare cross them. But the story shows the readers that someone with the means and the knowledge can just as easily take them down if possessing the right means.

 

In the event that the heroes turned evil for whatever the reason, Batman made it so that he could stop them permanently if he had to. Batman was just covering his bases so to speak. It's human instinct to want to control the great power in front of them. Batman showed the readers that even though he is a member of the one of the most elite groups in the DCU, that deep down, he is still a man amongst Gods. It is what makes Batman unique on the JLA and separates him from everyone else on the team.

 

The story asks the question about "what would happen if these contingency plans of Batman's fell into the wrong hands" and the results are astonishing to say the least.

 

Heroes like Superman, Wonder Woman, the Flash and the Green Lantern are not supposed to be violated and raped so to speak as the way they were. They are Gods, they are not supposed to be at the mercy of a normal human being. They are on an entirely higher level than human beings. The JLA could have killed Batman on the spot for the role he played in them being beaten the way they were. It gave the JLA a nasty wake-up call and showed them that they are not invincible and can be taken down if they had to be by a normal human being like Batman no less. No one wants to know what their flaws or failures are. There are egos to be maintained and confidence to be held. It is even harder for people like the JLA to accept.

 

Batman did what anyone else in his position would/should have done. He made sure to have a plan "B" on hand if he ever needed one in regards to beating the JLA just in case they turned evil. But his plans fell into the wrong hands and his teammates were systematically beaten and mindfucked by Ra's Al Ghul who showed the JLA that they are not as powerful as they thought as it pertains to the human race.

 

The ending where half the JLA wants to rip Batman's limbs off is just surreal to see. These guys got their egos and ass's handed to them and they want to take it out on Batman. In a way, you feel bad for Batman because he only did what he thought was right in the event that the heroes did turn evil. It was fascinating to see the JLA taken out so systematically and with such ease as well. It knocked them all down a peg or two and it probably scared the fuck out of them. They are not supposed to be hurt like this by human beings. It breaks their confidence down and seeing someone like Plastic Man verbally attack Batman for his hand in the attacks, is the point where the reader sees just how insecure some of these Gods amongst men are. Being around a guy who could kill them with one well swoop is not easy to deal with. Especially when you thought you was invincible to just about everything. Batman is like the kid who you use to pick on but is now this buffed out giant who could easily kick your ass and go on with his business. It's not easy to get over that feeling after thinking you were untouchable for so long.

 

Simply put, Batman was justified in coming up with contingency plans to take down his partners if they turned to evil and the reactions of the JLA members were both from a bruised ego and a sense of lost trust.