Chris Benoit is not a good heel

[Guest Caliban]

The crowd was really starting to get into RVD/Benoit at the end, but the finish came about 5 minutes too early. That was a shame.

 

There was a fight in the crowd halfway through as well. Damn drunks.

[Guest deadbeater]

Oh, so that's what the fans were looking at. I thought it would be a Steve Austin run-in through the crowd.

[Guest pete]

There are different ways to play heel. Will Benoit be that heel that everyone hates. Probaly not beccause he doesn't work the crowd like Flair use to by telling the fat boy to sit down. Benoits heelness is more subtle. He is never going to yell and work the crown. He lets his actions do the work for them. In ECW he helped Sabu become a bigger face than he was, he also got Public Enemy over as the #1 face tag team in the company. In WCW he helped try to get Jericho over as a face at Fall Brawl 96(bookers didn't take into account that it was horseman country so he was going to be cheered instead of booed), he was a face most of the time in WCW because of the NWO. in WWE he has made RVD more legit, he helped Y2J get to the next level by selling his offense the way he did, He even got 2 Cool over more as a legit tag team to the publics eye. The WWE is hoping RVD gets the same rub as Y2J got from Benoit.

[Guest cabbageboy]

I wouldn't say Flair and Steamboat did 15 minutes of working the shoulder but they can do that stuff exceedingly well...AND Flair is a master of keeping a crowd into a match. Benoit is not. Those matches also had a lot of stiff chops in them too at various points, and also outside the ring brawling. It was never an entire match of working the shoulder.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

It could have been good if Rob wasn't a total fucking putz.

 

I mean, Jesus christ, Benoit was practically wrestling himself out there.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

I said it in the other RVD/Benoit thread.

 

RVD sucked. He was exposed for sucking in the ring.

 

Benoit did all the "smart" things in the ring yet couldn't get RVD to do one "smart" thing.

 

Tim

[Guest OlympicHeroY2J]

What should RVD do to COMPLETELY sell the fact that his arm hurts ? Should he grab a microphone and go "Ow ! My friggin arm ! It hurts !" ? How far do you people want him to sell the arm ? I think the fact that he held the arm for the entire match expressed to the crowd that yes, his arm does indeed hurt.

 

And excuse me for asking, but what's wrong with doing a backflip with a hurt arm ? It's one of RVD's signature moves and it gets the crowd riled up. Would you rather have him not do the cartwheel/moonsault combo and Rolling Thunder just so he can sell the arm, thus getting the crowd less interested ?

 

The psychology was being used. The crowd wasn't interested and frankly, found it a little boring. So maybe, just maybe, Benoit screwed up by controlling the match with submission move by submission move.

 

At one time DURING the match, you're gonna have to stop holding your "hurt" arm so you can actually do a friggin move. Get over it and stop bashing RVD for not doing MORE to sell his arm. Maybe next time he should borrow a sling from a fan just to get the point across, huh ?

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I'm just going to comment on why the heat in the match suffered...

 

Benoit dominated too much of it.

 

Period.

 

The crowd wanted to cheer for an RVD comeback...but Benoit cut off every one of them.

 

Which is fine...because that's what they were doing, and I personally enjoyed that.

 

It played into the idea that no matter what Benoit threw at RVD...he couldn't beat him.

 

That's what they were going for from teh first minute of the first match, and despite the ending that I hated...they pretty much showed that by Benoit kicking the hell out of RVD all match.

 

You can see why the crowd wouldn't get behind it...it would have gotten the crowd hot if this was the NWA inthe 80's...but it's not.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I hope none of the people saying RVD didn't sell properly didn't give the HHH vs. HBK match any kind of positive review.

 

cause HBK no sold that back like a motherfucker for the entire second half...

 

Both guys came back from what should amount to life threatening injuries compared to RVD's arm...and they were still hopping around without a trace for the finish.

[Guest Cubbie78]

Ok screw you guys...Benoit is clearly the better mat based wrestler?...so if thats the story they want to tell, that RVD is trying his high flying stuff, but Benoit just isnt gonna let that happen, nuh uh no way, then who is gonna dicatate the flow of the match?...Why Benoit of course..RVD tried a few times to get a mat based offense going, but benoit knew how toi counter that, so RVD perseveres just waiting for a chance to just hit the 5* and then itll be over....he gets out ofb two crossfaces (or was it three) one buy the ropes and one by powering out, and Benoit STILL doesnt give him a break, going to the straightjacket choke thing...Plus, Benoit is a heel, so he dictates the flow of the match, so it LOOKS like hes controlling the action, but it taikes two to tango, and I thought RVD did a GREAT job of letting the flow happen the way it should....Besides, did none of yall notice the the two-shoulderbreakers into flippy shoulderbreaker that RVD tried?...well what happened, after the first one he almost fell down selling the arm, so there he sold it, screw you.....

[Guest godthedog]

you know, i think it would simplify things a lot if we just created a one-and-only "did rob van damn sell the arm enough" thread and pin it for whenever he fights chris benoit. people like me, bps, incandenza, etc., wouldn't have to restate the same thing over & over again from thread to thread.

 

Besides, did none of yall notice the the two-shoulderbreakers into flippy shoulderbreaker that RVD tried?...well what happened, after the first one he almost fell down selling the arm, so there he sold it, screw you....

case in point: this argument i just responded to in another thread. i'm too tired to do the calm, logical rebuttal, so i'll just do the know-it-all, total dick rebuttal:

 

oooh, you mean rob van dam sold the shoulder on ONE OFFENSIVE MOVE? holy shit, stop the presses! if he keeps improving like this, maybe he'll understand how to make it look like the arm is AFFECTING HIS OVERALL PERFORMANCE IN THE MATCH! WOULDN'T THAT BE GREAT?

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I was going to stick to the original topic...but I had to mention that everyone has an opinion on RVD...while no one mentions their favorite match having glaring errors in it.

[Guest godthedog]

oddly enough, that WAS my favorite match of the night.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

You guys are missing the point entirely.

 

Holding the arm isn't all there is to it. Rob, for the most part, looked more confused than hurt, and that's probably because he was. He didn't know how to make his come-backs when he should have. He didn't know how to take the breaks Benoit was giving him. People say Benoit dominated too much, but what was he supposed to do? Rob was visably lost, and blown up by the eigth minute. So who's fault is it, then? Rob's, plain and simple.

 

Benoit was obviously trying to get Rob to go along with him, but it didn't work. He does all the cool arm work, but it takes more than that to interest the crowd. It takes a guy who knows how to come-back when he's supposed to, and it takes a guy who knows how to sell well enough to appear like he's in danger. It takes a guy who knows how to sell desperation so that the crowd rallies behind him, so that they want him to escape all the more. Rob just isn't an interesting seller, like, at all. He doesn't have to do the rolling thunder to make a come-back, all he needs to do is snap off a drop-kick at the right time. Counter a hamerlock with an elbow. Little stuff. Cartweel's hurt the believability. Remember kids, consistant selling is good selling (something people who put over the Trips/Shawn match as God's gift would be smart to remember). Moreover, Rob doesn't understand the dynamics of being a face in peril and taking the cues he's given. At least not with Benoit.

 

Benoit tried, Rob probably did too, but it wasn't enough. Rob was exposed as a guy who can't get it done in matches like this. His first match with Guererro was the same thing, so the rubes trying to put this off as Benoit's fault can stop kidding themselves. Like I said, he was practically wrestling himself.

[Guest NoCalMike]

Why is RVD picked on for no-selling all the time for every little thing, yet almost every good match at Summeslam displayed blatant no-selling and people just don't care. The WWE STYLE calls for no-selling which has been obvious, it just seems like people like to pick and choose who is and isn't allowed to no-sell.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Well, the topic is about that match in particular, so that's what we're discussing.

 

If you want to talk about no-selling in other matches, I'm sure we could do that, too. Test/Eddy was pretty bad in that regard, but that match seemed shorter and the no-selling seemed less offensive because they never put too much heat on it, while RVD/Benoit had tons, and tons, and tons of arm-work that ended up sabotaging the match. Edge/Eddy didn't really even focus on it at all, unless I missed something and the part where Eddy kicked out of Edge's DDT thing was supposed to be as a result of the arm work. I don't remember Cole saying anything, but then again, it's Cole, so you never know.

 

I didn't even watch it, but I can imagine that Taker/Edge had lots of no-selling too. It's all relative.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

I sometimes wonder if anyone actually watches the matches when they are on.

 

If you watch the match again, Benoit gives RVD openings to make quick comebacks and then he reels him back in. Benoit is a master of this. He did this with a young Otani and Kanemoto in Japan and was able to do it all the time with various opponents in WCW.

 

When Benoit gave RVD the little openings, RVD either: a- didn't use them or b- didn't use them properly.

 

RVD has a million little spots (albeit most of them whacky and non sensical but over with the crowd). Ricky Morton, a man with 4 moves, was the master of making short comebacks to let the crowd know what was going on.

 

Benoit exposed RVD. RVD was blown up 8 minutes into the match and never recovered.

 

Benoit might as well been in with a blow up doll.

 

Tim, thinking the thing to argue would be RVD's lack of smart in ring skills rather than his selling of the arm.

[Guest NoCalMike]

I don't think Benoit exposed RVD of anything. Unless wrestlers are holding a grudge against one another like HBK/Bret LEVEL.....why would they want to expose anything....What they SHOULD want to do is make due with what they have and go out and have the best match they can, not try to "expose" each other of any weaknesses........

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Mike, I don't think Tim was insinuating that Chris went out there and exposed Rob's flaws on purpose it's just that in working that type of match with him, and doing his best to get Rob to go with it, Chris ended up exposing him as a worker not up to his levle. Like Tim said, it was pretty obvious that Chris was trying to get Rob to do the right thing for most of the match, it just didn't end up happening that way.

[Guest Madmartigan21]

He was an asshole in 2000. Remember how he trashed The Rock's dressing room, put everybody in the Crossface, and even headbutted Steph? That's what he needs to do to get over.

The reasons why Benoit was so over at that time had little to do with him.

The main reasons were:

 

1. He was feuding with the Rock. If you can't get over while feuding with the Rock ***COUGH***TEST***COUGH***, you shouldn't be involved in pro wrestling.

 

2. Shane was acting as his second. He really played the role of heel manager very well.

 

Another thing about Benoit is that while he maybe a master of ring psychology, he has a lot to learn about crowd psychology. I've said it before, and I'll say it again Benoit would wrestle every match the same with a full arena or an arena that is quite literally empty. There is a thing called fan participation and Benoit offers NONE of it. Say what you want about "Sports Entertainment", but while Vince McMahon may have invented the term, he didn't invent the concept. Pro wrestling has ALWAYS involved wrestlers doing little non-wrestling(I can't think of a better word) things to involve the crowd. Some are fairly subtle like a heel using the ropes, and some are not so subtle like the spinaroonie. But all of them help a match by involving the crowd more.

 

It takes a guy who knows how to come-back when he's supposed to,

Since Benoit was controlling the match, isn't that HIS responsibility? So how is Rob to be blamed for THAT? I agree with his shoddy selling of the arm, but I don't agree with the comebacks point.

I want to agree with something that somebody said earlier about this match in particular. Fans have come to expect a certain kind of offense from RVD. By controlling pretty much the ENTIRE match the way Benoit did, he robbed the fans of seeing what they like to see from RVD. Rob didn't have one dominant portion of the match. The fans didn't get to see what they came for, at least with regards to Rob. Benoit worked the style of match that HE wanted to work and the fans be damned if they wanted something different. This is part of the reason why Benoit will NEVER be WWE champion. Its really a shame, because he does so many things better than just about anybody on the planet, but he can't (won't?) do the things that have made stars out of so many.

[Guest godthedog]

to be fair, hardly anybody knows how to properly time babyface comebacks anymore. the only one who can really do it with panache is the rock (see his matches with benoit & hhh), everyone else just seems to pick some arbitrary time to get back on offense with the wwf-standard ONE BIG REVERSAL™.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

It takes a guy who knows how to come-back when he's supposed to,

Since Benoit was controlling the match, isn't that HIS responsibility? So how is Rob to be blamed for THAT? I agree with his shoddy selling of the arm, but I don't agree with the comebacks point.

I want to agree with something that somebody said earlier about this match in particular. Fans have come to expect a certain kind of offense from RVD. By controlling pretty much the ENTIRE match the way Benoit did, he robbed the fans of seeing what they like to see from RVD. Rob didn't have one dominant portion of the match. The fans didn't get to see what they came for, at least with regards to Rob. Benoit worked the style of match that HE wanted to work and the fans be damned if they wanted something different. This is part of the reason why Benoit will NEVER be WWE champion. Its really a shame, because he does so many things better than just about anybody on the planet, but he can't (won't?) do the things that have made stars out of so many.

No, you see, if you WATCH THE MATCH, you can see that Benoit is indeed giving Rob openings, but he either doesn't use them properly or doesn't use them at all. Like I said, if Rob knew how to come back when Chris gave him the openings, and new how to do it properly, it would have made for a good story and wouldn't have seemed one-sided. Hence, it's Rob's fault. Chris kept his end, but Van Dam couldn't keep his. Plain and simple.

 

And just because fans want to see the Rolling Thunder doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. That would kill the realism, people wouldn't be afraid for Rob anymore, and they wouldn't feel any of his pain when it came to a hope spot. It kills the point of having a match at all, because if you're just going to do moves because they "look cool" you might as well just go watch a stunt-show.

[Guest SlowChemical6]

No one would have cared even if Rob did sell the arm. The bottom line is, they had no reason to boo Benoit. Benoit controlled the majority of the match. So the result was that there was dead silence for the majority of the match and babyface heat when RVD was on offense. RVD's babyface heat would have been greater if it had been preceded by boos for Benoit, too. The harder you've been booing, the harder you want to cheer when the babyface takes over.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Benoit would have gotten heel heat if it appeared he was doing any damage. Instead, endless armwork that didn't really go anywhere. People had no reason to care, so they didn't react.

[Guest OlympicHeroY2J]

Come on Ricky, you really think 5 minutes of RVD selling his arm would have made Benoit a great heel and gotten the fans to boo him ? That's bullshit. Going into the match, the fans didn't care about Benoit and it's been that way since his return from his injury. 5 minutes of one match isn't going to make up for months of non-reactions for Benoit.

 

And you seem to mention the fact that RVD had openings, but didn't exploit them. Perhaps, if Benoit is such a ring general, he could have said "Hey Rob. Come back a little now." or "Hey Rob. Run to the corner. Flying kick." Instead, he continued to pound him with submission move after submission move. It's my belief that RVD was not lost in that ring but if he was, Benoit should have the ability to lead him a little. Instead, Benoit continued with the armbars and stretching.

 

Before the match, people had no reason to care for Benoit. Hence, during the match, nobody cared for him either. Say what you want about Benoit's in-ring skills but Mr. Charisma and Mr. Crowd Reaction, he ain't.

[Guest Brian]

If RVD had better utilized the openings his offense wouldn't have come off as so spotty while Benoit was very fluid.

[Guest Kid Kablam]

Come on Ricky, you really think 5 minutes of RVD selling his arm would have made Benoit a great heel and gotten the fans to boo him ? That's bullshit. Going into the match, the fans didn't care about Benoit and it's been that way since his return from his injury. 5 minutes of one match isn't going to make up for months of non-reactions for Benoit.

 

And you seem to mention the fact that RVD had openings, but didn't exploit them. Perhaps, if Benoit is such a ring general, he could have said "Hey Rob. Come back a little now." or "Hey Rob. Run to the corner. Flying kick." Instead, he continued to pound him with submission move after submission move. It's my belief that RVD was not lost in that ring but if he was, Benoit should have the ability to lead him a little. Instead, Benoit continued with the armbars and stretching.

 

Before the match, people had no reason to care for Benoit. Hence, during the match, nobody cared for him either. Say what you want about Benoit's in-ring skills but Mr. Charisma and Mr. Crowd Reaction, he ain't.

Oh come on, Rob is supposed to be a professional. Benoit can't be holding his hand all the time.

[Guest godthedog]

i don't think rvd has much experience wrestling on instinct (as benoit seems to prefer). benoit realistically can't go out there, give rvd a few silent openings without warning & expect him to keep up. rob seems to be a big call-the-spot-before-you-hit-it guy (as are almost all the guys on the roster), and benoit can't expect rvd to not get lost if he's out of his element. if this is what happened (and i don't know that it is, i only saw the match once live), then it wasn't all rob's fault. this also would explain the lack of proper arm selling: he'd have a million things on his mind related to "oh shit, how do i keep up with this guy" and not be able to keep "oh shit, i gotta keep selling the arm" in the front of his mind.

[Guest Brian]

Yeah, but RVD originally got complaints for deferring match planning which doesn't really help his cause.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Exactly. There's no reason Benoit should have to cue the putz in. He did he cool arm work and Rob didn't do much of anything. What he did do he did at the wrong times, or in the wrong way.

 

And when did I say five minutes of selling was needed? If anything, it needed two seconds of GOOD selling. The match actually had quite a lot of selling from RVD, but none of it was really any good, so there wasn't a point.

 

Benoit has plenty of charisma and the ability to work the crowd...if he's got a compitent apponent. Once they saw that the arm work wasn't going to anywhere, and that RVD obviously woundn't be tapping, of course they lost interest. If he's in there with someone who can utalize what Chris gives him, then he can produce good matches. It's clear after watching his performance that he's still got it in him. It seems that there isn't anyone around right now who knows how to do that.