Chris Benoit is not a good heel

[Guest Brian]

I would have liked it alot more if RVD was at all threatened in the crossface.

 

And how long has RVD been wrestling?

[Guest OlympicHeroY2J]

And when did I say five minutes of selling was needed? If anything, it needed two seconds of GOOD selling. The match actually had quite a lot of selling from RVD, but none of it was really any good, so there wasn't a point.

What would be an example of two seconds of GOOD selling ? Because besides holding your arm and grimacing, I don't know how else you can sell the arm......

 

Sure, you can go for a forearm and then go "Ow ! My arm!" but I would think that would disrupt the flow of the match....

 

Or go for a bodyslam and drop Benoit and say "Jeez ! I can't support the weight !" but the match would go nowhere else.

 

So, if spending the whole match holding your arm doesn't cut it, what exactly does, considering you can use two seconds of good selling ?

 

I just don't understand why people are being so hard on RVD for last night. He did exactly what he needed to do, but because it wasn't as great as it COULD have been, people put the blame on Van Dam. Maybe Benoit should stop with the damn constant submission moves and allow some offense. Believe it or not, Benoit CAN do some wrong sometimes...

[Guest Brian]

I think the part of selling Ricky is talking about is making the arm feel threatened, weaker, and just generally like it could keep RVD from winning.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

There's no point to this arguement anymore. I keep telling you, WATCH THE MATCH, and it will become clear: Benoit gives him the chance to come back, and he either doesn't capatalize or doesn't do it properly. Unless you want to argue the actual point, then, well, there is no point to this.

 

As for the selling, RVD was ok, but he seemed lost and tired more than hurt. His facial expressions didn't say "ow, I'm hurt" they said "geeze, I'm tired." Again, the effort was there, but like I keep saying, selling for three years doesn't do a man good if he can't make it go anywhere (ie: coming back and making it believable). And like I also said, watch the match.

 

Whatever, no point to saying anymore.

[Guest godthedog]

There's no reason Benoit should have to cue the putz in.

 

um...actually, there is. the better worker is supposed to help the lesser worker out. that's what working is. if rvd can't pick up on silent clues to come back on offense, benoit isn't going to help by giving him silent clue after silent clue after silent clue. it's like if somebody doesn't know what the word "coagulate" means, and you expect them to learn it just by shouting "coagulate!" over and over.

 

and yeah, rvd's selling lacked coherence, but long-term selling in general is a lost art. the last great example of long-term selling i saw was between austin & angle at summerslam last year.

[Guest Cubbie78]

This might or might not be a factor, but you mentioned he looked tired?...did anyone else read in the ross report that he had bone chips, and something else, and they were hoping he was gonna woirk through it at summerslam?...Maybe he was legit hurting, so his mind was elsewhere, like not getting injured...could have something to do with it, could not I dont know...

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"benoit realistically can't go out there, give rvd a few silent openings without warning & expect him to keep up."

 

Then what are we to expect out of wrestlers?

 

The openings that Benoit gave RVD are bright as daylight. Wrestlers seem to forget the simple and smart things today and instead try to do stuff that they are not capable of or have no right doing.

 

Babyface comeback spots which still get huge pops include moves as simple as sunset flips, flying body presses, hitting an elbow drop and then trying for a second and missing, etc.

 

Watch HHH/Jericho from WM. No heat through the first 18 mins for a variety of reasons. Then Jericho comes off the top rope with a body press that is reversed by Trips for a pinfall. That simple spot got the most heat of the match....not the walls of jericho or the pedigree.

 

That match should have enlightened everyone to RVD's weaknesses that in recent months have been kept on the downlow.

 

This is what will seperate the Steve Austin's/Chris Benoit's/etc from the spot machines of RVD/etc.

 

Tim

[Guest NoCalMike]

it is kind of silly to think we at home watching, can for sure know if there was an opening for something or not. how in the hell do we know what they were telling each other to do next? When I watched the match, I remember thinking it was pretty good starting out, and proceeded to be a 15 minute beat down of RVD, and for all intensive purpose most on this board think RVD should have just laid down and died. That is just not realistic. Every single face in the company no sells submission and "punishment" to their body parts. It is a WWE style of work, because in order to get the pop from the crowd you can't just kind of limp over to your opponent all hobbly and try to fight back. I am not saying that I like the WWE style the best, cause I certainly don't, but it is WHAT IT IS......and that is what we all tune into every week.

[Guest NoCalMike]

Another problem I think a lot here have noticed is that even the ELITE faces can't get the crowd into the match unless the heel is truly hated. Look at RVD, he is super over with the crowd yet if they don't care either way about his opponent then it translates them into not caring about the match. Benoit is the shit, and I think he is the best worker in the company, but 90% of the fans can give a damn about him and it shows in his matches. It sucks to say it, but in WWE, unless you can get the crowd pumped into your match, you are NOT moving up on the card.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"it is kind of silly to think we at home watching, can for sure know if there was an opening for something or not. how in the hell do we know what they were telling each other to do next?"

 

Watch the match.........it is so clear. Benoit gives RVD a few seconds to hit some offense that RVD either didn't use or used in a bad fashion. Not silly at all. Almost more silly to not see it.

 

"When I watched the match, I remember thinking it was pretty good starting out, and proceeded to be a 15 minute beat down of RVD, and for all intensive purpose most on this board think RVD should have just laid down and died."

 

No, he should have just made better comebacks when Benoit allotted him the oppurtunity. No matter what people say, sympathetic babyfaces will always be over with the crowd. RVD couldn't get that emotion out because his comebacks sucked worse than his selling.

 

"That is just not realistic."

 

Nod.

 

Tim

[Guest NoCalMike]

So what you are saying is that after RVD missed the supposed first opening, Benoit didn't tell him, "hey I gave you an opening, what the hell are you doing, ok after the next clothesline, I'll give you another one" It just seems to not make sense that if Benoit wasn't getting the point across to RVD, that he wouldn't just nudge him or something to let him know what was going on.....and I refuse to believe that anything was done on purpose, so I am not sure how your theory makes sense.

[Guest humongous2002]

The match was pretty good but it would've been a classic since we got 2 of the best wrestlers in WWE history. But the reason that the crowd wasn't too much into this match was b/c WWE didn't hyped up as much as HHH/HBK or Brock/Rock match, there was hardly any story behind it and the fact that RVD was on RAW and Benoit was in SD! didn't give them a chance to evolve into a more interesting storyline.

[Guest OlympicHeroY2J]

I'm sorry but I find it ridiculous that RVD is supposed to READ Benoit's mind in order to mount a comeback at the exact correct moment. Benoit was controlling the flow of the match. He was applying the submission moves throughout the whole time. Thus, he should be there to tell RVD when to mount a comeback. The last thing a wrestler wants to do is fight back and immediately get shut down because it's the wrong time to fight back.

 

It's hilarious that RVD is supposed to fight back because Benoit "gave him a hint." Maybe Benoit was stalling to let him catch his breath. Maybe Benoit was just taking a quick glance to the crowd to gain their attention. It's hard to know exactly what Benoit was doing at the time so how could you say he was giving RVD an opening ?

 

The match fell below the high standards it was given. Benoit controlled the flow of the match. As a result, it should be Benoit's fault that the match was kind of lacking. But all the Benoit nuts on this board can't face facts that the match was slow because of him so they blame RVD for not holding the arm. Yeah.....I'm sure the crowd would have been jumping up and down with reactions if RVD grimaced a little more while holding the arm....

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

I'm sorry but I find it ridiculous that RVD is supposed to READ Benoit's mind in order to mount a comeback at the exact correct moment. Benoit was controlling the flow of the match. He was applying the submission moves throughout the whole time. Thus, he should be there to tell RVD when to mount a comeback. The last thing a wrestler wants to do is fight back and immediately get shut down because it's the wrong time to fight back.

 

It's hilarious that RVD is supposed to fight back because Benoit "gave him a hint." Maybe Benoit was stalling to let him catch his breath. Maybe Benoit was just taking a quick glance to the crowd to gain their attention. It's hard to know exactly what Benoit was doing at the time so how could you say he was giving RVD an opening ?

 

The match fell below the high standards it was given. Benoit controlled the flow of the match. As a result, it should be Benoit's fault that the match was kind of lacking. But all the Benoit nuts on this board can't face facts that the match was slow because of him so they blame RVD for not holding the arm. Yeah.....I'm sure the crowd would have been jumping up and down with reactions if RVD grimaced a little more while holding the arm....

I agree. The Benoit marks are full of excuses.

 

The heel has to control tempo. Benoit didn't do that well, and the match suffered.

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

This is exactly why I'm beginning to hate this board more and more.

 

To like a wrestler not named "Benoit" you have to defend him constantly. It's almost like being on trial.

 

RVD no sells an arm to do a comeback, and it's a hanging offense. Methinks nobody would care except for the fact it's Jesus H Benoit.

 

Let's start off with a few facts, shall we?

 

What's the number one thing wrestlers are supposed to do? Entertain the crowd. What kind of crowd do we have, kids? This is a WWE crowd. Not a submission loving MMA-puro crowd, or an NWA crowd patient enough to sit through an hour match of "pyschological greatness". It's a WWE crowd. Most of them could care less about psychology, or technical wizardry, or workrate as long as they're entertained. What does entertaining the crowd do? Makes sure they come back next time you're in town, or tune into your shows, or buy your merchandise. Therefore, entertaining the crowd means you stay in buisness.

 

Reactions: A reaction a wrestler gets is generally how well a wrestler is liked. Cheers means the crowd likes them. Boos or chants taunting them means the crowd hates them. Indfference is indifference. At SummerSlam, RVD got cheered. Angle got booed. Benoit got indifference.

 

Yeah, the crowd was dead during the match. Benoit was controlling the match, so some of the blame of that falls to him.

 

As "exciting" as Benoit is to some of you people, I'm sure a whole lot of fans (and myself) don't quite see why. Perhaps I'm not "elite" enough. I don't know.

 

What does it matter that RVD didn't sell the arm to make a comeback? It dosen't. It dosen't matter a damn thing. Only to people who overanalyze it, and try to use that excuse to justify the statement "RVD sucks". Will no-selling the arm for five minutes break Van Dam's career? No. Will it hurt his popularity? Judging by last night, no. I had more fun watching RVD/Dreamer last night than I did RVD/Benoit. I'm gathering a lot of other people did, too. Why? Benoit has all the charisma of a rock. Oh, he's got a thumb across the throat. Is it supposed to be "intense"? Supposed to make me..or anyone else..care about him?

 

Smack **** stars on everything with Benoit in it. It matters a lot. No, really. It does.

 

Will it matter when Benoit never gets past the upper midcard, while somebody like Van Dam is easily capable of winning World Championship gold? Benoit dosen't have the charisma (Austin, Rock, RVD) to make it..or the size (Lesnar) or even the "backstage pull" *rolls eyes* (HHH). Does he "deserve" it because he's the best worker in the WWE? ppbht.

 

Deserving, and getting the crowd to care is an entirely different thing. Even if Van Dam is a "mediocre worker" compared to the Vanilla Midget, he'll go much farther. Simply because he can make the crowd care. Workrate dosen't matter. Psychology dosen't matter. Excitement does. And it just happens that not everybody is a "Smark"..

[Guest Strike Force!]

The Canadian Moveset can do no wrong.

[Guest Strike Force!]

What's the number one thing wrestlers are supposed to do? Entertain the crowd. What kind of crowd do we have, kids? This is a WWE crowd. Not a submission loving MMA-puro crowd, or an NWA crowd patient enough to sit through an hour match of "pyschological greatness". It's a WWE crowd. Most of them could care less about psychology, or technical wizardry, or workrate as long as they're entertained. What does entertaining the crowd do? Makes sure they come back next time you're in town, or tune into your shows, or buy your merchandise. Therefore, entertaining the crowd means you stay in buisness.

 

Reactions: A reaction a wrestler gets is generally how well a wrestler is liked. Cheers means the crowd likes them. Boos or chants taunting them means the crowd hates them. Indfference is indifference. At SummerSlam, RVD got cheered. Angle got booed. Benoit got indifference.

 

Yeah, the crowd was dead during the match. Benoit was controlling the match, so some of the blame of that falls to him.

 

As "exciting" as Benoit is to some of you people, I'm sure a whole lot of fans (and myself) don't quite see why. Perhaps I'm not "elite" enough. I don't know.

 

What does it matter that RVD didn't sell the arm to make a comeback? It dosen't. It dosen't matter a damn thing. Only to people who overanalyze it, and try to use that excuse to justify the statement "RVD sucks". Will no-selling the arm for five minutes break Van Dam's career? No. Will it hurt his popularity? Judging by last night, no. I had more fun watching RVD/Dreamer last night than I did RVD/Benoit. I'm gathering a lot of other people did, too. Why? Benoit has all the charisma of a rock. Oh, he's got a thumb across the throat. Is it supposed to be "intense"? Supposed to make me..or anyone else..care about him?

 

Smack **** stars on everything with Benoit in it. It matters a lot. No, really. It does.

 

Will it matter when Benoit never gets past the upper midcard, while somebody like Van Dam is easily capable of winning World Championship gold? Benoit dosen't have the charisma (Austin, Rock, RVD) to make it..or the size (Lesnar) or even the "backstage pull" *rolls eyes* (HHH). Does he "deserve" it because he's the best worker in the WWE? ppbht.

 

Deserving, and getting the crowd to care is an entirely different thing. Even if Van Dam is a "mediocre worker" compared to the Vanilla Midget, he'll go much farther. Simply because he can make the crowd care. Workrate dosen't matter. Psychology dosen't matter. Excitement does. And it just happens that not everybody is a "Smark"..

That about sums up my feelings right there. Thanks for saying what needed to be said.

[Guest CanadianChick]

Good post EPD. I love Benoit, but I'm not going to call all of his matches classic, I'm going to be fair. And I totally agree with you on how you have to defend yourself a lot if you like someone beyond a certain group of wreslers. I really like Edge, and I have to defend that a lot of the time, especially after Summerslam.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Just re-watched both RVD/Benoit and Edge/Guerrero. The selling skills between Edge and RVD is a great deal apart.

 

Edge out classes RVD by knowing how to sell the arm throughout the entire match except to hit his spear at the end. And even at the end, he doesn't fully neglect it, he just finds the strength to hit his 2nd finisher and put Eddy away.

 

And about blaming Benoit for the match, please just watch the match and study it. See how RVD is inconsistant in getting a face reaction and selling the arm. Ricky Morton could be a face even when in against another face (which rarely happened even in the NWA).

 

I'll give RVD some benefit of the doubt and recognize that the finish of the previous match (the tag match) pissed the fans off and probably took them out of the match for the most part........but for all the RVD praise, he looked mediocre.

 

Tim, thinking Eddy, Benoit, and Angle are all top 5 wrestlers in the world right now.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I'd be most interested in finding out where Diablo gets his "facts" from. This entire post is about how the match WASN'T GOOD, for the love of God. I haven't heard one rational-minded person give any of Benoit's recent work anywhere near four stars yet, so who are those mysterious people who are huge marks for Benoit? If anything, it's apparent that many people posting on this thread probably weren't paying that much attention to the match at all, because if you did, you would notice Benoit giving him plenty of openings that just screamed "go back on offense, you blithering idiot" and Rob screwed it up every time.

 

This is wrestling. He shouldn't have to yell "Sunset Flip!" at the top of his lungs as well as bending over to get Rob to take the cue. If anything, the people who are attempting to defend this kind of shoddy work and selling are the ones coming up with all the excuses, and they're bad ones, too.

 

I've said it once, and I'll say it a thousand times, I'm sure: WATCH THE MATCHES. That is all.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"This is wrestling. He shouldn't have to yell "Sunset Flip!" at the top of his lungs as well as bending over to get Rob to take the cue."

 

LOL. True.

 

"I've said it once, and I'll say it a thousand times, I'm sure: WATCH THE MATCHES. That is all."

 

But Ricky, I want to enjoy the matches and not have to *THINK* when I am watching them

 

Tim

[Guest OlympicHeroY2J]

First off, excellent post, El Psycho Diablo. You summed up my thoughts exactly.

 

Now Ricky, you say that Benoit shouldn't have to yell "Sunset Flip" to RVD when that is the problem right there. Benoit SHOULD tell RVD to attempt a sunset flip. If you are on the offensive in a match, you should be there to tell the other person when he should start his offense. I'm sure the wrestlers don't want to cut each other off so it would definitely be more helpful if Benoit told him to attempt a sunset flip. Then, when RVD's on the offensive, he can tell Benoit what to do to gain the advantage. See.....that's how a wrestling match works....

 

Tell me what would look better. Benoit whispering to RVD to attempt a sunset flip to get back on the offensive and it being pulled out crisper. Or RVD using his OWN judgment to attempt a sunset flip, thus almost breaking Benoit's neck, since he didn't even expect it.

 

It is not fair to say that RVD should know when exactly to gain the offense. Like I said, Benoit could have been looking at the crowd or giving RVD time to breathe. You can't say that Benoit was leaving an opening for RVD when there are millions of possibilities that could have taken place as well.

 

Benoit was the one with submission move after submission move. He needs to tell RVD when it's time to break out of it. Instead, he kept wrenching the arm and continuously boring the crowd. RVD is a man of many things.....but I don't think telepathy is one of them.

[Guest Brian]

If Benoit leaves the opening, that he's prepared to take whatever move RVD calls. It's the small gaps that the face takes advantage of that make the match work, and a good heel can pace a match so that they leave those little openings for a face to take action, to slowly start comebacks, to fight out, sell the holds by making them seem threatening, etc. Take a look at the match. I realize Benoit is very fluid but RVD's offense looks really spotty. But than again, by that logic OHY2J, we should just have Benoit lay out the match and ask RVD to memorize everything or Benoit calling every damn audible because we don't want RVD using his own judgment.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

I'm glad people are starting to realize that RVD is not a good wrestler.

[Guest Brian]

It's not that I started realizing it, it's moret hat I've seen his imporvement stop progressing. He started working WWE style, which forced him to wrestle a match where he had less time to stall, had to string together his matches with striking, and forced him to cut down his moveset, focusing on his better moves. Yeah, he improved but other skills haven't gone anywhere. He still bumps well and takes moves well. His selling is still spotty and psychology can be non-existant. And unless he's in there with a guy willing to take shots, his strikes reminds me of Lance Storm (okay not that bad).

[Guest OlympicHeroY2J]

Who said that Benoit had to dictate the whole match to RVD ? While Benoit is controlling the match, he tells RVD what to do. Then, once it's time for RVD to gain the advantage, he tells Van Dam the time to do it. Then, while Van Dam is on the offensive, he tells Benoit what to do. Finally, when it's time for Benoit to re-take the advantage, Van Dam tells him what to do. The cycle continues until the match is over. That is what makes a successful match.

 

To expect RVD and Benoit to have a good match without Benoit telling RVD when to take the advantage is ridiculous. It was Benoit's decision to have an armbar followed by a crossface followed by a dragon sleeper followed by a stretch with the knee to the back followed by another crossface, etc. He laid out all these moves in a chain. When exactly is RVD supposed to seize the opportunity to gain some offense ? If he would have mounted a comeback right after the first crossface, you people would be complaining that he didn't sell the effects of the crossface enough !

 

Benoit did what he wanted to do in that ring and, if he is such a ring general, he should be able to tell RVD when to gain the advantage. Benoit is more the technical wrestler. RVD is more of a impact and high-flying wrestler. RVD didn't force Benoit to high-fly. Instead, he tried to wrestle the technical style, which Benoit has a specialty at. Thus, Benoit should be able to guide RVD a little bit more than he did, since it was his specialty and not RVD's.

 

I don't know why it's so hard for people to admit that the match possibly lacked because of Benoit's inability to give RVD the opening. It is not RVD's type of match so Benoit should help him a little bit. He didn't. Match suffered.

 

I'm glad people are starting to realize that Benoit is not the perfect wrestler anymore....

[Guest El Satanico]

So we have people admitting that RVD isn't capable of wrestling an actual match without someone telling him "time for you to go on offense". Yet the people admitting that are actually defending RVD?

 

God damn i must've stumbled into Bizarro World...again

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Brian summed it up pretty well, but basically, verbal comunication isn't needed to have good matches like this. Good wrestlers who haven't spoken the same language have had great matches together, and they do it through body langauge, and subtle motions and just playing off of their opponent's budy possitioning. It works, and it's been done for years. Rob's offense looked spotty, Benoit's didn't. Rob had plenty of opportunities to take advantage of what Benoit gave him, but he didn't. No spot calling needed.

 

And I hope you don't think you're being revolutionary or radical by saying Benoit isn't perfect. Like I said, pretty much everyone agrees that he's past his prime. Whatever.