Just Imagine

[Guest Karnage]

Was the Just Imagine series any good?

[Guest HellSpawn]

I just got the Batman one, and IMO, is barely good, like a *** or ***1/4

 

Kubert art is good as usual. BUT, remember Joe Kubert's style is totally different than his sons.

 

But in this story IMPOV, Bats broke one of the Batman Mythos, IMO, the most important rule in Batman Mythos, or maybe I just misunderstood the scene.

-----

OK, I just re-review the issue, and yeah, I misundertood the scene, but still, my opinion remains, ***.

-----

 

I saw the Wonder Woman one, but it wasnt an earthshaking issue and didnt buy it.

 

I cant say anything about the rest.

[Guest Vyce]

I got a few of them.

 

Was colossally disappointed.

 

Didn't pick up the rest.

[Guest raptor]

I'm a huge Stan Lee fan, but I'm not that big on the whole DC universe, so I neglected to pick these up.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

They're really not that good. I'm doing a review on the whole series so read that.

[Guest starvenger]

I've got one of the TPBs. The Batman one is really a mishmash of things, Superman is an interesting take on things, and I haven't read the other two yet...

[Guest areacode212]

I went to Cosmic Comics today, and on the "Just Imagine..." display, they had snarky remarks written on cards below each issue. Underneath the Wonder Woman issue, it said "Proving that Jack Kirby wrote the Marvel classics". And under the Robin issue, they had written "Featuring art (if you could call it that) from John Byrne". Hehe. I loved Stan Lee's 60s stuff, but that gave me a good laugh.

[Guest Vyce]

It's a great concept - "Stan Lee recreates the DC universe!"

 

Only it's just.....not very well done.

 

And I agree with the snarky guy. Can we please stop Byrne from doing any more pencilling? Please???

[Guest HellSpawn]

Cont me on the "I Hate Byrne group".

[Guest starvenger]

well, I finished reading the first TPB, and out of them, Green Lantern is probably the best. I think that this issue is good at bringing out the "Stan Lee" style while incorporating elements from mythology as well as both the golden and silver age GLs.

[Guest Sassquatch]

"Just imagine...with Stan Lee" bombed in sales and was either ignored or thrashed by the critics..

 

Stan's stories were crap and were mostly used for toilet paper by fans and the books can usually be found in the 50% off bins. Stan showed everyone just how pedestrian and sad he has become with these stories. In a world of Frank Miller's, Bendis', Morrison's, Ellis', Rucka's, and Brubaker's, he look's totally out of place and is now the laughing stock of fans all over. DC fans were outraged and Marvel fanboys could clearly see now how pathetic and sad Stan has become. This concept was 40 years too late to mean anything.

 

Stan Lee is perhaps one of the best examples of a Hulk Hogan of his/her industry. The man did great things back in his day, but just like Hogan, he stepped over anyone he could to get his way. He disrespected and spit on the graves of past stars. He takes credit for something that others helped him build.

 

Stan need's to go away in the worst kind've way and never do interview's or touch a pen ever again. He is an embarassment to comic book's each time he tosses out the Marvel lines and does not have a clue about today's industry.

[Guest pochorenella]

Wow, that's some serious Stan-bashin' right there, Sass. Not to be Devil's advocate, but when did all this disrespecting of others happen? What's he taking credit of that he didn't do?

[Guest Sassquatch]

Stan Lee.

 

The man has over stayed his welcome WAY past what he should have. People give him all the credit for shaping Marvel into what we know today when in fact that is a total bullshit. The fact is, more than half of the super heroes that we know today in Marvel, wouldn't exist without the ideas of one man:

 

Jack Kirby.

 

Half of what Stan says he created were all ideas from Jack. The Silver Surfer is the only character Stan can take most credit for. Spider-Man (along with Steve Ditko), the Fantastic Four, Hulk, Iron Man, Dardevil, Uncanny X-Men, Avengers, Thor, and Ant-Man and the Wasp were all by-products of Jack Kirby along with other creators. Stan would come up with ideas and Jack would create characters out of those ideas. The names of most of those characters all came from Jack as well. He was the one who really gave them life on the pages of the comics.

 

But since Jack died in 1994, Marvel has slowly stopped acknowledging Jack's contributions and instead has given more recognition to Stan instead of Jack. Idiot motherfuckers like Kevin Smith also make things worse for Jack getting noticed. Smith in his movie "Mallrats" gave no mention to Jack Kirby at all in his movie. Instead, he blowjobbed Stan Lee's ego by letting the world know that it was Stan that came up with all of the ideas for the Marvel characters that we know today. Jack Kirby was never mentioned once by Stan or Jason Lee who he was talking to. Smith gave Stan an ego fuck and pissed on a man's legacy while doing it. That shows you how ignorant and how much of a fanboy Smith is. He is one of the biggest pieces of trash in the comic book industry.

 

Alex Ross, who painted such critically acclaimed books as "Marvels", "Kingdom Come", "Earth X", and numerous covers and posters, spoke out against Smith and his flawed portrayal of Smith's movie and it's bias towards Stan. Smith wanted to do a project with Ross, but Ross called Smith on his bullshit movie and Smith backed off like the ignorant ass hole that he is. Ross ripped Smith and Stan apart for failing to mention Jack in the movie. Smith and Stan never apologized for their mistake.

 

But it was too late.

 

Millions of people who do not know a lot of comics will forever believe that only one man was responsible for creating the Marvel comics that we read today. One man will forever be credited with the creation of a money giant while another man, will be forgotten and rotting away in his coffin.

 

Stan Lee took the opportunity to take all the credit for himself and he did. If he really cared about Jack, he would have told Smith that Jack needed to be mentioned in the movie as well, considering the role he played in creating Marvel.

 

But he didn't.

 

Kevin Smith, in a Wizard interview a couple of years ago, confessed that he didn't "get" Kirby. Quesada (who was in the same room) promised that he would make him understand.

 

A couple years ago in a Wizard interview Smith admitted that he did not understand Jack's work and what made him so special. Joey Quesada was with Smith when this interview was done and said he would help Smith understand what made Jack so special.

 

If you can fathom the stupidity and unprofessionalism in the paragraph above in regards to Smith and his disregard to Jack then more power to you all.

 

Jack Kirby who?

 

Steve Ditko what?

 

Steve Ditko was another causality in Stan's goal to be the comic book God of the industry. Steve Ditko and Stan worked together on Amazing Spider-Man. They were considered one of the best teams in the industry at the time. But then Stan's ego reared its big head and all hell broke loose.

 

The big story in Spider-Man was the identity of the Green Goblin, who was a major player in Spider-Man. Steve wanted the identity of the Goblin to be that of a stranger. Someone that Peter Parker (Spider-Man) never met. It was a good idea. But Stan wanted the identity of the Goblin to be that of someone that Peter knew so that it would be "more shocking" which was bullshit. Steve wanted to point up the arbitration of life and to show criminals as seedy nonentities. But Stan wanted the credit of the Green Goblin to go to himself. It has been proven that Stan wanted to be the one who could take the credit for the identity of the Green Goblin, which was going to be a huge story. Stan pulled some strings in the front office and since he was the editor of the book, he told Steve that his idea "wouldn't get the attention of the fans like mine (Stan) would". The Marvel front office backed up Stan and Steve's idea was dead. He was sabotaged so badly, that he felt that he could not work at Marvel anymore and that he did not have the support of the front office like he needed. Steve packed up his things at midnight in early July of 1966 and quietly gave his resignation form to the front office telling them that he had quit. Stan got his way and the identity of the Green Goblin was Norman Osborn, who was the father of Peter Parker's good friend Harry Osborn. It was shocking, but who knows if Steve's idea would have been better. Nobody will ever know.

 

Don Heck.

 

Stan has also downplayed Don Heck's (co-creator) influence on the creation of Iron Man in past interviews. Stan barely acknowledges Don today whenever Iron Man is brought up in interviews and says that Don only came up with the idea to make Tony be dependent on his armor. The truth is that Don came up with entire concept of the man in the iron suit and was the brains behind all of IM's inventions. Stan came up with the character of Tony Stark but Don told Stan to make Tony a playboy rather than a suit who would not be interesting.

 

Most fans do not know about Don being the co-creator of Iron Man with Stan Lee because no one cares to mention it whether it be Marvel or Stan.

 

Bill Everett.

 

Bill Everett is another casuality of Stan's ego fucking who was the co-creator of Daredevil. Bill is the invisible man in interviews with Stan whenever someone talks about DD. I will be surprised if Bill is given credit when the Daredevil movie comes out later this year.

 

This is a running theme with Stan and his co-creators. The men mentioned above are just some of the more infamous examples of Stan downplaying the credit of his co-workers and their influence on the characters that have made Marvel billions of dollars over the last several decades.

 

Long live the King...

[Guest pochorenella]

Oookay. Again, not to play devil's advocate, but I've never heard or read that Stan Lee actually took credit for those creations in the way that you mention. In fact, when the Spider-Man movie came out and all those know-nothing showbiz reporters asked about how did he "drew" Spider-Man he quickly pointed out that he didn't and Steve Ditko did. The fact that nobody came up to Ditko's door to ask him about it is no fault of Lee's. I seem to remember Ditko's is in self-imposed exile so who knows if he wanted credit or not.

 

And regarding Kevin Smith and "Mallrats", yes I saw the movie and it came to me as a surprise that Kirby wasn't mentioned, but is that Lee's fault? Comic book fans around the world know that Kirby is also the co-creator of most of the Marvel Universe as we know it, so I don't need no stinking movie to tell me who did what when I know it. I doubt many people would consider what Lee and London talked about in the movie as "official canon". And hey, I liked "Mallrats" and all of Kevin Smith's movies. In fact, he plays a doctor named "Jack Kirby" in the Daredevil movie.

 

And please don't get me wrong. Jack "The King" Kirby is my all-time favorite comic book artist. I even said as much on a previous thread on this very Forum. His contributions are enormous and timeless. And yes, I do think he hasn't gotten the credit he deserved, and Marvel as a whole is mostly responsible for that. They never credited the artists much, wether DC somewhat did (after some legal issues, I know).

 

The fact is that comic creators rarely get the credit they deserve. Ask Bob Kane. Or Jerry Siegel. Or Joe Shuster. Ask the regular fan if he knows who created Superman and they'll go "huh?". Isn't that character ownership's what guys like Todd McFarlane always fought about? And does the regular fan know that he created Spawn?

 

I like Stan Lee and his creations and contributions to the comic world. And I also like Jack Kirby's mastery and inventive that he put on the comic page. Let them both have their share of glory, God knows they deserve it. It what amount is a matter of debate.

 

Maybe I'm not as well informed as you are, Sass. No scratch that. I KNOW I'm not as well informed as you. Anyway, this has been a great discussion on an interesting topic. Hopefully there are more ones like this to shake up the status of this forum.

[Guest Sassquatch]

"Again, not to play devil's advocate, but I've never heard or read that Stan Lee actually took credit for those creations in the way that you mention. In fact, when the Spider-Man movie came out and all those know-nothing showbiz reporters asked about how did he "drew" Spider-Man he quickly pointed out that he didn't and Steve Ditko did. The fact that nobody came up to Ditko's door to ask him about it is no fault of Lee's. I seem to remember Ditko's is in self-imposed exile so who knows if he wanted credit or not."

 

Steve might be a lot of things but he has always maintained his interest in being credited where credit is due. That is one of the reasons why Steve has said not-so-nice things about Stan in the past because of Stan's self-serving fellatios. The man doesn't ask for a lot but too only be given the credit that he deserves.

 

"Comic book fans around the world know that Kirby is also the co-creator of most of the Marvel Universe as we know it, so I don't need no stinking movie to tell me who did what when I know it. I doubt many people would consider what Lee and London talked about in the movie as 'official canon'."

 

- pochorenella

 

The comic book fans like you, Poch, and myself know who the real creators were. But for the millions of other fans that only know about the X-Men or Spider-Man through the cartoons they saw of them while growing up, Mallrats did Kirby and Co. a great disservice. This was not an interview with some comic book rag mag, which will be read by less than one million fans. This was a movie that had a larger number of people watching it and whatever they see in the movie they will believe.

 

Stan did not say anything.

 

He could have told Smith about how Kirby helped him create the heroes that Smith whacks off to but Stan chose not to say anything or push the issue. If Stan truly did care about his old friend he could have gotten his way and could have given Jack his due on the movie.

 

So now you have millions of people who believe that Stan was the one and only God of comic books, which is a gross misrepresentation.

 

 

"The fact is that comic creators rarely get the credit they deserve. Ask Bob Kane. Or Jerry Siegel. Or Joe Shuster. Ask the regular fan if he knows who created Superman and they'll go 'huh?'

- pochrenella

 

The examples made above are in *no* way the same circumstances as Jack, Don, Bill, etc.

 

Bob Kane.

 

Kane has always been given credit for creating Batman and has been given the company BJ just as much as Stan.

 

Now Bill Finger on the other hand, Bob's co-creator, he's the one who doesn't get credit for helping Bob with Batman.

 

"Batman created by Bob Kane"

 

Each time you open up a Batman comic book to the first page and look down at who did what with the issue, you will see that credit to Bob every time.

 

Bill who?

 

DC wonders why Finger hated them.

 

Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster.

 

For all the shit Jerry and Joe had with DC while they were alive, they were *always* given the credit for Superman. No questions asked. DC didn't want to deal with them anymore and their lawsuits so they appeased the two by giving Jerry and Joe credit each time in every Superman related comic book. Oh and I live with casual fans who know who created Superman. Every Superman movie has a big credit with Jerry and Joe's name in it, giving them credit for Supes. DC would have *loved* to have taken the credit from Jerry and Joe but they would have had lawsuits coming out of their ass if they did that. The Siegel's and Shuster's would go apeshit on DC today if DC would stop giving Joe and Jerry credit. They are insanely devoted to their father's and look for any interview discussing Superman and/or Jerry and Joe just in the hopes of ripping DC a new one.

 

Next.

 

Now people like Jack Cole (Plastic Man), Mart Modell (Green Lantern), or William Moulton Marston (Wonder Woman) is all in the same boat as Jack Kirby, Bill Everett, and Don Heck. They are rarely to never given credit for creating/co-creating the characters mentioned above all because DC has had problems with them in the past or else the creators of today refuse/forget to give credit.

 

 

"Isn't that character ownership's what guys like Todd McFarlane always fought about? And does the regular fan know that he created Spawn?"

 

 

Spawn #1 sold 1.7 million copies when it first came out. The book continued to be a top 10 seller for 6/7 years. The merchandise that came from it was staggering. The toys, video games, movies, TV shows, etc. Todd had something with him that none of the older guys above had when they created their characters:

 

His own hype machine.

 

Todd would go out of his face to get his face and creations out in the public. He has been on numerous TV shows shilling his shit. He became even more well known for his acquisition of Mark McGwire's home-run ball and his lawsuit with Tony Twist which made the papers and the news numerous times.

 

Stan and Todd are probably the most well known comic book workers outside of the industry, which came from years of hype from their companies and shameless self-promotion. Stan is still around today and since he has been the Marvel corporate shill, in return he is given the God hype job from Marvel.

 

Stan does deserve credit for helping build Marvel to the powerhouse that it is today (more or less). But for Stan or Marvel to forget the men that helped him them to where they are today is just wrong any way they look at it.

[Guest crandamaniac]

Didn't Stan Lee try and make amends with Steve Ditko, and gave him credit for creating Spider-man in a letter about a year ago?

[Guest areacode212]

I posted this around the time the Spidey movie came out...it contains more on Ditko vs. Stan:

 

http://www.thesmartmarks.com/forums/index....=ST&f=20&t=6223

[Guest Sassquatch]

Stan Lee sues Marvel Comics.

 

Welcome to the land of the misused creator Stan.