Guest Kotzenjunge Report post Posted August 30, 2002 Look at this. This dude pretty much says everything I want to say about her. I happened to come across this link on the mtv.com messageboards. This is another case of me not minding the musician until they start making music contrary to what they make it sound like, if that makes any sense. Fo sheez, Kotzenjunge Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest godthedog Report post Posted August 30, 2002 i am in total agreement with all this. i think all wannabe females who want to be pop stars need to follow the bjork model. that model being BE CREATIVE AND TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Kotzenjunge Report post Posted August 30, 2002 Or even if you don't do anything different, at least actually DO what you SAY you do. Fo sheez, Kotzenjunge Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest mesepher Report post Posted August 30, 2002 that was an excellent read, I'm so glad I took the time to check this out. only on a wrestling board would you have to specify "not the tag team" in the subtopic, haha. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Kinetic Report post Posted August 30, 2002 Did anyone actually take Avril Lavigne seriously at any point? The thing with this clothes is sort of silly because the "punk rock look" has been completely co-opted by major clothing manufacturers, to the point where you can buy a shirt that says "PUNK" in big bold letters at JCPenney. I see the intent of the article and it certainly appears to have research supporting it, but I question the need to expose Avril as a fraud. It's a foregone conclusion, as far as I'm concerned. My next article is going to be on her, too, actually. Look for it either today or tomorrow. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest OctoberBlood Report post Posted August 30, 2002 Very good article, all true. I never did like here music, I just liked the way she looked. Cutie girl. BUT - once I saw what she looks like without makeup, I almost vomited. I'll try and find those photos for anyone who cares. Heh. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest evenflowDDT Report post Posted August 30, 2002 i am in total agreement with all this. i think all wannabe females who want to be pop stars need to follow the bjork model. that model being BE CREATIVE AND TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT. Ahh, but how are you trying something different if you're following a model? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest starvenger Report post Posted August 30, 2002 I figured I should probably throw in this link to a Toronto Star article from a couple weeks back. The print article had some high school pictures as well. Anyways folks, remember that it's only pop music, and it shouldn't be taken too seriously. (Unless it's Kylie, and you're Kotzenjunge ) Just enjoy the music. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Incandenza Report post Posted August 30, 2002 Very good article, all true. I never did like here music, I just liked the way she looked. Cutie girl. BUT - once I saw what she looks like without makeup, I almost vomited. I'll try and find those photos for anyone who cares. Heh. Before a group of us caused its downfall, someone--an "anti," but not one of us--put up a horrid-looking picture of Lavigne at an Avril fan board. Had we not brought its downfall, I'd put it up here. Though I in no way defend her music nor her hypocritical ways, I really don't know why people would expect so much from someone who can't even vote yet. She's a teenager, and like most teens, she's full of shit. Why this should raise anyone's ire is beyond me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest OctoberBlood Report post Posted August 30, 2002 How can anyone enjoy pop music? EW! Anyways, here is Avril without makeup .. I think I'm gonna vomit.. http://www.kissfm.com/timages/page/avril/i...1010005_jpg.jpg and more: http://www.kissfm.com/avril.html Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest evenflowDDT Report post Posted August 30, 2002 Did anyone actually take Avril Lavigne seriously at any point? The thing with this clothes is sort of silly because the "punk rock look" has been completely co-opted by major clothing manufacturers, to the point where you can buy a shirt that says "PUNK" in big bold letters at JCPenney. I see the intent of the article and it certainly appears to have research supporting it, but I question the need to expose Avril as a fraud. It's a foregone conclusion, as far as I'm concerned. My next article is going to be on her, too, actually. Look for it either today or tomorrow. I enjoyed "Complicated", but I know I never took Ms. Lavigne seriously (hell, if I did, would I have taken part of the "invasion" and constantly refer to her as April?). However, Kinetic makes a huge point about "JC Penny Punk". You see models and junk in torn up shirts with clothespins and anarchy signs and stuff. When you ask them why they're wearing their Halloween costume so early, it's because they're punk, just like Blink 182! Oh dear... I don't even act like a "punk elitist" who would dress the same way and immediately ask them who the Misfits are (because I don't get why THEY dress like that either). I just ask them why they're dressing like that and what punk means to them. To them, punk usually means dressing like that. The funny thing is, when I ask the local "punk elitists" why they dress like that, they give the same answer, that dressing like that is a part of "fighting the system" and being punk. Oh dear. Why are clothes accepted as such a vital part of "punk lifestyle"? Please... I'll go to a punk concert in khakis and loafers if I please. Isn't punk "supposed to be" about not fitting in and acting counter-culture? Trading in blind obeyance to "pop" culture for blind obeyance to "punk" culture still gets you nowhere. Is there anywhere where the clothes DON'T make the man? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Edwin MacPhisto Report post Posted August 30, 2002 Didn't care much for the article. Journalism isn't sniping and taking pot-shots. Kind of an unnecessary article, too. Anyone who's actually going to read it already has this same opinion of Ms. Lavigne. Cute insults, though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest evenflowDDT Report post Posted August 30, 2002 How can anyone enjoy pop music? EW! I think the more accurate question is, how can anyone NOT enjoy pop music? I'm serious... I've never had a problem with admitting I enjoy pop singles. What with their bouncy beats and catchy hooks, the whole point's to enjoy them, and I think so many consider it so "cool" to be anti-pop that they miss the point and make it out to be more than it ever was supposed to be. Their main reason is that pop prevents "good music" from being played - the fact of the matter is, the "good music" just isn't as catchy, and its a safe bet that if the "good music" were played as much as pop music, the people crying for it to be played would eventually hate it because it'd be just as "trendy" as pop music. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest evenflowDDT Report post Posted August 30, 2002 Whoa... without make-up Avril Lavigne looks just like a regular person. I'm shocked. Why, I never expected that! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Incandenza Report post Posted August 30, 2002 That first picture is the one that was used at the Avril board. I don't give a shit what Avril, her record label, or her fans call her music. Calling it punk is ludicrous, sure, but the end product is what's more important than any generic label you throw at it. And her end product is something I don't particularly enjoy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Edwin MacPhisto Report post Posted August 30, 2002 How can anyone enjoy pop music? EW! Anyways, here is Avril without makeup .. I think I'm gonna vomit.. http://www.kissfm.com/timages/page/avril/i...1010005_jpg.jpg and more: http://www.kissfm.com/avril.html Uh...I don't especially like her so much, but she's just a teenage girl. It's not like she has fricking lesions or something. "Vomit" seems so harsh, don't you think? Also, on the pop music thing--just because something is "pop" music doesn't make it bad. Most mainstream music could be labeled pop in some fashion--if it's a part of pop culture, it can be pop music. N Sync may be crappy bubblegum pop, but I even still consider System of a Down to be somewhat pop rock. It ain't bubblegummy, but it's catchy, gets played on mainstream radio...that's not exactly a sin. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest OctoberBlood Report post Posted August 30, 2002 I think the more accurate question is, how can anyone NOT enjoy pop music? I'm serious... I've never had a problem with admitting I enjoy pop singles. What with their bouncy beats and catchy hooks, the whole point's to enjoy them, and I think so many consider it so "cool" to be anti-pop that they miss the point and make it out to be more than it ever was supposed to be. Their main reason is that pop prevents "good music" from being played - the fact of the matter is, the "good music" just isn't as catchy, and its a safe bet that if the "good music" were played as much as pop music, the people crying for it to be played would eventually hate it because it'd be just as "trendy" as pop music. It's cool to be anti-pop? Wow, I never knew that. I must be cooler than cool cat joe!! Really, I can't stand pop music, nor do I stand Rap. It really bugs me, and it is really annoying to me. I am a metal head myself, and I could care less about pop, or rap. I heard Avril once, and then show numerous photos .. she was hot, but her music sucked just like any other teenager trying to be cool. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest OctoberBlood Report post Posted August 30, 2002 How can anyone enjoy pop music? EW! Anyways, here is Avril without makeup .. I think I'm gonna vomit.. http://www.kissfm.com/timages/page/avril/i...1010005_jpg.jpg and more: http://www.kissfm.com/avril.html Uh...I don't especially like her so much, but she's just a teenage girl. It's not like she has fricking lesions or something. "Vomit" seems so harsh, don't you think? Also, on the pop music thing--just because something is "pop" music doesn't make it bad. Most mainstream music could be labeled pop in some fashion--if it's a part of pop culture, it can be pop music. N Sync may be crappy bubblegum pop, but I even still consider System of a Down to be somewhat pop rock. It ain't bubblegummy, but it's catchy, gets played on mainstream radio...that's not exactly a sin. She is just a teenage girl, a pretty ugly looking teenage girl. About the pop comment, everyone knows what I mean. Pop Music, which is Britney, Avril, Backstreet Boys, etc.. what else would you call them? And, well - I don't have a PROBLEM with anything mainstream, its just that I tend not to listen to any of it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Incandenza Report post Posted August 30, 2002 "Backstreet Queers" Glad you bring so much to an intelligent discussion, October. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest OctoberBlood Report post Posted August 30, 2002 Right, Sorry. I'll edit that. Still, I have no respect for anything they do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest evenflowDDT Report post Posted August 30, 2002 It's cool to be anti-pop? Wow, I never knew that. I must be cooler than cool cat joe!! You didn't know? Oh, I'm sorry, I guess that's just a high school thing... forgive me for still being in that mindset. 90% of the people I met in high school that weren't MTV slaves made it a point to be so obviously and blatantly anti-pop, and combining that with people who go so far and write these long articles that try so hard to be obviously and blatantly anti-pop, have led me to believe that it must be "cool" to be anti-pop, otherwise why would all these people try so hard? I've always said, if you don't like it, just don't listen to it. OK, so you don't like pop or rap. What does calling the Backstreet Boys Backstreet Queers accomplish except show how "cool" you are by being ant-BSB and thus anti-pop? That's all... oh, tell Cool Cat Joe I said "hi", and that he needs to return my Weezer records. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest OctoberBlood Report post Posted August 30, 2002 It's cool to be anti-pop? Wow, I never knew that. I must be cooler than cool cat joe!! You didn't know? Oh, I'm sorry, I guess that's just a high school thing... forgive me for still being in that mindset. 90% of the people I met in high school that weren't MTV slaves made it a point to be so obviously and blatantly anti-pop, and combining that with people who go so far and write these long articles that try so hard to be obviously and blatantly anti-pop, have led me to believe that it must be "cool" to be anti-pop, otherwise why would all these people try so hard? I've always said, if you don't like it, just don't listen to it. OK, so you don't like pop or rap. What does calling the Backstreet Boys Backstreet Queers accomplish except show how "cool" you are by being ant-BSB and thus anti-pop? That's all... oh, tell Cool Cat Joe I said "hi", and that he needs to return my Weezer records. I have pointed out I was wrong about calling them "queers". But yet, you bring up the point: What does calling the Backstreet Boys Backstreet Queers accomplish except show how "cool" you are by being ant-BSB and thus anti-pop? - How is calling someone queer, being cool? I am not trying to act cool, or be cool - I just feel, pop and rap are so talentless, and cause so much "ouch-ness" to my hears. Hehe. Cool Cat Joe died last night of an od of cool cat pop music. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest godthedog Report post Posted August 30, 2002 people like myself don't like pop because it refuses to take any chances (i know, this is just part of the nature of the beast, but i don't have to like it). it IS possible to make good pop music, even great pop music, but the standards for pop music are so stifling only someone absolutely brilliant can make it truly worthwhile as music (like michael jackson). it's the musical equivalent of jerry bruckheimer. yes, it goes down easy, but it's so formulaic that it gets boring really quickly, and it really pisses me off to see someone talented work at something like it, because it's just going to get lost in the shuffle. if you're a musician/singer/whatever, why would you want to try to sound like everybody else? if you can be replaced in the music world, in my opinion you have no business being there. bring something to the table or get the hell out. music is a powerful medium that can make people THINK and FEEL, and it should be used for THAT purpose, because there's already plenty of stuff out there the sole purpose of which is to make money. there's nothing wrong with wanting to make money, just do it somewhere else. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Fort Detrick Report post Posted August 30, 2002 "Whimps and posers leave the hall" - Manowar I hate all of this MTV trash, but aleast Nsync and Britany Spears act like pop stars and don't pretend to be something they're not. But....Punk sucks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Kinetic Report post Posted August 30, 2002 I think I'm becoming more and more resigned to the fact that the music I like will never find a permanent place in the mainstream system. As a result, the pop music that is part of the system is infinitely less upsetting to me. Seeing someone like Janeane Garafolo ranting and raving about Yo La Tengo on Carson Daly's late night show doesn't do it for me anymore, either. It's just such a futile gesture. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest evenflowDDT Report post Posted August 30, 2002 I have pointed out I was wrong about calling them "queers". But yet, you bring up the point: What does calling the Backstreet Boys Backstreet Queers accomplish except show how "cool" you are by being ant-BSB and thus anti-pop? - How is calling someone queer, being cool? My apologies... as a dial-up user, it often takes a while to load/post things, and I wrote that up as you were posting it, and it didn't post/load up your response until after I already posted it. Anyway, I have no idea why so many teenage males (and some females) are inclined to call boy bands they dislike gay (but like I was trying to say earlier, a lot of them probably don't believe that, but they want to come across as "cool" and "unique" by trying extra hard to be blatantly anti-mainstream and taking every chance they can to insult pop stars). I think it's because: a) they're jealous that the boy bands have so many female fans, and by calling them "gay" they make themselves feel better ("Ha! Those girls are so stupid... they should be liking me, but instead they like someone who would never like them back because he's GAY!") B) no matter how tolerant society as a whole gets, in the high school locker-room the belief is still that being gay somehow makes you less of a man. Thus, these unliked boy bands, who sing songs of romance, often in high-pitched voices, are "unmanly", and thus gay. I hate this "minor" form of homophobia the most because it's so persistent. Again, sorry I missed your earlier apology. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Incandenza Report post Posted August 30, 2002 I think I'm becoming more and more resigned to the fact that the music I like will never find a permanent place in the mainstream system. As a result, the pop music that is part of the system is infinitely less upsetting to me. Seeing someone like Janeane Garafolo ranting and raving about Yo La Tengo on Carson Daly's late night show doesn't do it for me anymore, either. It's just such a futile gesture. I came to that realization when I was 19, too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest godthedog Report post Posted August 30, 2002 wow...janeane garafolo ranting on network television for carson daly's show about yo la tengo. there are so many levels of irony going on with that, it's like 'fight club' only more obvious. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest evenflowDDT Report post Posted August 30, 2002 people like myself don't like pop because it refuses to take any chances (i know, this is just part of the nature of the beast, but i don't have to like it). it IS possible to make good pop music, even great pop music, but the standards for pop music are so stifling only someone absolutely brilliant can make it truly worthwhile as music (like michael jackson). it's the musical equivalent of jerry bruckheimer. yes, it goes down easy, but it's so formulaic that it gets boring really quickly, and it really pisses me off to see someone talented work at something like it, because it's just going to get lost in the shuffle. if you're a musician/singer/whatever, why would you want to try to sound like everybody else? if you can be replaced in the music world, in my opinion you have no business being there. bring something to the table or get the hell out. music is a powerful medium that can make people THINK and FEEL, and it should be used for THAT purpose, because there's already plenty of stuff out there the sole purpose of which is to make money. there's nothing wrong with wanting to make money, just do it somewhere else. I'm inclined to agree with you, in that even though I'm a fan of pop music, I also enjoy hearing something new every once in a while. However, the majority of people that listen to music simply do not think like that. There are ways to sound like everyone else but still infuse your own thinking and feeling. Look at Bruce Springsteen... musically speaking, he doesn't sound very unique at all, however he took that and put in his own thinking and emotion into his lyrics and his music is now "timeless". And what of the people who have no talent? I used to want to be a rock star, but then I realized that I'd never be good enough at the guitar to try anything new, and now, even though I enjoy playing it, I'm probably not even going to bring it with me to college because I know I won't be able to do anything new. Sure, it's nice to hear something new... but not everyone can provide that, and I'd rather have a lot of variety with the chance of most of it being unimaginative and unoriginal, not just because it gives musically untalented people and their fans a chance to be happy, but also because it makes someone who IS talented seem even more special. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest evenflowDDT Report post Posted August 30, 2002 I think I'm becoming more and more resigned to the fact that the music I like will never find a permanent place in the mainstream system. As a result, the pop music that is part of the system is infinitely less upsetting to me. Seeing someone like Janeane Garafolo ranting and raving about Yo La Tengo on Carson Daly's late night show doesn't do it for me anymore, either. It's just such a futile gesture. I came to that realization when I was 19, too. I guess I've got about six months to go then... hmmmmm.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
