RVD vs HHH at Unforgiven

[Guest MarvinisaLunatic]

Id like to see RVD win at Unforgiven, but honestly, I think there are 2 problems which make it a bad decision.

 

1) RVD probably isn't percieved on the same level as HHH

2) The "World Heavyweight Title" to me seems like it will bomb if RVD were to hold it. I think the fans are already skeptical that Bischoff just awarded the title to HHH, and if RVD goes and wins it from HHH, the match could be a classic and all, but I don't think fans are going to percieve him as a world champion(even if it is/was the WCW title and all..)

[Guest Some Guy]

Why didn't they have a mini tourney for the belt instead of just giving it to HHH? Give HHH a bye to the finals and have RVD beat Flair, Booker beat Test, RVD beat Booker and then RVD over HHH for the belt. You have RVD win three matches and the final over a guy who hadn't wrestled that night. I think that would've helped his crediblity.

[Guest cabbageboy]

Hell, RVD would be perceived as a more legit champ than HHH is now. This is basically the only money match Raw has right now and they cannot possibly let it be a 1 PPV type deal with HHH retaining and telling RVD he's not in his league. I mean we all saw Raw last night and saw RVD bitch slap Hunter and pin him in the center of the ring. Hell that is more than Jericho has ever done to HHH.

 

I think this one will end a bit differently, because there is really not a whole lot of money in a long HHH run. I say RVD eventually beats him for it (Shawn run in is fine with me) and then RVD holds it for a while.

 

At WM if Brock holds the SMDN title still, you can then do the unification and finish off that unfinished business with RVD/Brock.

[Guest CanadianChick]

I don't see why HHH would feel the need to de-push RVD. Afterall, RVD is a face and HHH is a heel. Also, if that match had the potential to be a big moneymaker, HHH should have no problem elevating RVD. He can't wrestle Ric Flair all the time...

[Guest Some Guy]

Ric Flair doesn't expose how slow HHH has become, RVD would. I think HHH would be happy to sleepwalk with Flair than bust his ass with RVD.

[Guest nikowwf]

I don't see why HHH would feel the need to de-push RVD. Afterall, RVD is a face and HHH is a heel. Also, if that match had the potential to be a big moneymaker, HHH should have no problem elevating RVD. He can't wrestle Ric Flair all the time...

Wow, you haven't been watching very long, have you? Joking... =)

 

HHH seems to have the need to keep anyone down who could be any type of a threat to his position. Look at the people he has elevated....and how his elevation typically pushes them far down. (Jeff Hardy anyone?)

 

Look at when he loses the title to an old man, or jobs to his friend who isn't going to be in the company full time.

 

HHH never elevates anyone.

 

Niko

[Guest Brian]

Plus the fact that when Triple H was babayface numero uno, Mr. Monday Night was getting bigger reactions than him.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

The only reason RVD shouldn't win is because the belt is tainted and could bring him down. That's the only reason. Leave it on HHH, let it bomb, let it bomb, let it bomb - I don't really care, I am not watching RAW any ways.

 

RVD is just Jericho 2002. Jericho got his 'win' over HHH and lost at Fully Loaded and got buried directly afterwards. HHH is givin his mighty 'rub' that will 'rub right off' on the following RAW.

[Guest cynicalprofit]

RVD beats HHH, then brock, reunifing everything because ununified is really fucking dumb after you unified it in the first place, then loses to Benoit, who then loses it to Eddy and EVERYBODY BUT HHH WINS. We'll get great matches and HHH wont be main event sucking.

 

Theory: Its a new poster who is saying HHH should win, me thinks HHH has to much free time on his hand and shouldnt be using his internet connection to try to put himself over the smarks and justify his winning and bad matches. End Theory.

[Guest Brian]

Actually, the matches have all made the contenders look pretty decent, it just depends how HHH reacts to him during the feud. Thet hing that will do RVD nice is he shows no reaction to anything and he can just brush off most of what Hunter says.

 

Unifying it in the first place was worthless if they were going to split the shows.

[Guest jester]

Thet hing that will do RVD nice is he shows no reaction to anything and he can just brush off most of what Hunter says.

RVD's laid back promos are a good counterpoint to HHH, even at his worst. Even with HHH smirking that RVD's "not in my league" can be countered nicely with a nice "Whatever, dude."

 

SmackSmackSmack. Gotta hit myself and not get my hopes up. I want to believe this is the long awaited RVD push, but I don't want to set myself up for a massive letdown.

[Guest Brian]

Just assume nothing good ever happens and no one ever gets elevated. Everything seems so much better after that.

[Guest cabbageboy]

Someone on the Torch mentioned this very thing today. The fact that RVD simply cannot possibly sell HHH's rambling interviews in a way that Jericho or whoever does. I have to admit I wanna hear this stuff about "You're not in my league" and hear RVD reply "You've got it wrong, you're not in MY league. You are the Game, but I am the whole fucking show~!"

 

The reason I think this is going to turn out different is that from day 1 RVD has had more credibility (in terms of booking) than Jericho or Jeff. Jericho is someone who was hated at the time by a paranoid HHH who was fighting for his spot. This was 1999 and HHH was by no means established. I think over time the Jericho/HHH thing escalated into a very real disdain, hence Jericho being buried.

 

I don't know how anyone can even compare Jeff Hardy's fluke win over HHH to RVD. Jeff at that point was 1/2 of a tag team and simply got a shock win over HHH via massive interference. There was no PPV match there, nothing for a world title by any means.

 

Right now, RVD is a credible opponent. He has already gotten a fairly clean win over HHH in the tag match. RVD is NOT a threat to HHH's spot. HHH is the top heel on Raw. RVD isn't remotely going to take that spot from him. RVD is being groomed for the top face spot on Raw, and HHH would have to be a fool to squash him and ruin a money feud.

 

Let me put it this way: Jericho at various times has been a threat to HHH because he can turn heel and possibly get more over. I think we all agree that RVD isn't going to turn heel and get more over than HHH. So therefore HHH's spot is in no real jeopardy.

 

We'll see how it plays out. If HHH just beats RVD at the PPV and ends the feud, that would be really fucking stupid and counterproductive for everyone involved. Even HHH has to realize that with The Rock in Hollywood he desperately needs a new long term rival. RVD is the best choice.

[Guest Zero_Cool]

You know, two years ago, we may have been creaming our pants at this whole thing, with RVD possibly getting an elavator to the ME. Two years later, we're pissed because of everything that has been taken away from us, I guess.

 

You know that after Unforgiven, when HHH is holding both the IC and World titles, he'll go on about how RVD wasn't in his league, and how he is The Game. Everybody in the arena will chant for RVD, rather loudly too, but he won't come out. Instead, Bubba will come out, to kick off a one night bonanza of verbal blowjobs to both workers. Meanwhile, RVD is in the segment afterwards, facing off against Big Show again.

 

All I really know is that the vidcap of RVD hoisting both belts into the air is the closest we will see RVD to the World Title...except for Unforgiven, where he'll be clocked in the face with it.

[Guest cabbageboy]

I'm actually thinking RVD will job the IC to someone else before the PPV, but I know not who.

 

They can't possibly think a Bubba/HHH feud is going to draw. Nor HHH/Kane. Aside from RVD/HHH there is really only one other Raw feud for HHH that could feasibly draw money and that is Booker/HHH. That match is nowhere near close to happening though.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I can see HHH costing RVD the IC title in a match against Big Show or somethin.

[Guest TheyCallMeMark]

He's had countless ****+ and ***** matches on pay-per-view.

 

Triple H has never been in a ***** match, by anyone's standards, I don't think. The closest he ever got was when he was carried through a brawl by Foley and at best I would call that ****1/4 or ****1/2 (I haven't watched it for awhile). If I remember correctly, he was in exactly four **** matches, which, given, in amazing, but it was with other great workers. It's not like he was ever able to carry anyone or anything. Then again maybe our opinions differ, but I thought we all had realized that we thought HHH was alot worse than we thought because we were caught up with HHH FEVER~! But maybe some of us need to look at the tapes again, eh?

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Alright.

 

I've been sitting around thinking about all this.

 

And here is my conclusions:

 

1. With two world title matches at the ppv...it seems likely that RVD will be main eventing the ppv with HHH (cause...anyone who would put Brock/Taker last is a fool).

 

So that's pretty cool.

 

2. HHH is going to win...fine.

 

The bright side is..has any wrestler actually beaten HHH that clean in any kind of match like RVD did on RAW?

 

Sure there was a belt shot...but c'mon...that's as clean as it's going to get.

 

So that's cool.

 

3. HHH sold RVD's offense brilliantly. And to be fair, regardless of what happens at the ppv match or in the future...

 

HHH did more to make RVD look like a top guy on RAW that anyone else has since the end of the Invasion.

 

So that's really cool.

 

4. And most importantly.

 

This match is coming at the perfect time for RVD. He was so over on RAW...and one would hope the same would hold true at the ppv.

 

Why does this matter?

 

Because WrestleMania isn't all that far off.

 

HHH will NOT win at Mania if he is in a world title match.

 

Period.

 

They won't do it again this soon.

 

I actually feel realy confident in that.

 

So when Vince goes looking for a face to use at Mania (assuming the belts are still split...and Angle doesn't turn face)...

 

RVD has an outside shot at getting the push the top face should get at Mania time.

 

Which is also really cool.

 

SO...

 

um...

 

let's just hope that HHH doesn't hate RVD like he does Jericho.

 

BTW...

 

Did anyone else notice that RVD didn't kick out of any HHH offense on RAW?

 

It was always Jericho, whether it be a chair shot, beatdown on the outside, or a lionsault...HHH would always cover after...and RVD would kick out of all Jericho's Offense.

 

I just found it amusing that HHH managed to take the fall while killing Jericho's offense.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

I'm looking forward to all of this with great zeal. Wouldn't it make sense(in my 3 AM brain) for RVD to go over Trips and them actually establish a program that lasts, cementing Trips as a heel and making RVD more of a face? I see this drawing tremendously if they make it competitive. Sure, Trips might come out on top after three PPVs or so, but RVD would be a Main Event guy in the fans' eyes and my own.

 

Just a few thoughts. I haven't read this thread other than the last couple of posts, so this may have been said already.

 

Fo sheez,

Kotzenjunge

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

The thing is..

 

What reason DOES Trips have to go over RVD? It's not going to advance his career any. As I see it, until proven otherwise, his best is behind him. He's a lazy bastard that's resting on past accomplishments (as is Hogan, Taker..as was Austin..) for whatever reason.

 

It dosen't do anything for HHH to go over except kill another promising career. Look at Jericho in 1999. By all rights, he SHOULD have been main eventing by now. He had it all. Talent, Mic Skills, Charisma..

 

But through stupidity, he's not main eventing. Neither is Kurt Angle.

 

It's costing the WWE. More than they'll admit. Why? We're all tired of seeing the HHH/Taker show. As we were tired of seeing the Austin/Evil Boss show..or the constant Rock/Triple H/Taker/Austin main events for two three years straight.

 

If HHH winds up going over RVD and "Jericho"ing him..the WWE -WILL- feel it this time. As much as they pray, Brock f'n Lesnar will not save their company. The guys that should be the current crop of main eventers are all in the midcard..or getting put back down by the main eventers.

 

What does that sound like?

 

WCW.

[Guest goodhelmet]

first of all, theycallmemark....

 

i hate to get into rating arguments because they are so subjective but HHH has most definitely been in more than 4 **** matches. off the top of my head, 1) vs. foley at rr2000 2)vs benoit 3)vs. Jericho last man standing 4)vs. rock (iron man match) 5) vs. austin 2/3 falls. Others have rated many more at least ****. just saying.

 

as for bps...

 

point 1. we are talking about vince here, the man who still allows undercripple to receive world title shots after having horrible matches w/ austin, hogan and hhh (the last being my worst match of the year contender) in quick succession.

 

2. you're right. i was in shock that rvd didn't win because of an hbk superkick or a mistimed jericho chairshot.

 

3. also agreed. i also think rvd can be the next guy to carry trips to a watchable-great matchup. hey, it worked for hbk who was a walking cripple, why not rvd?

 

4. i don't know if they are going with an rvd main event at mania. i still see a kurt angle-brock lesnar showdown. while we could call rvd mad over on the last raw, was anyone else even getting any heat besides booker's spinaroonie? i still think, unfortunately, that rvd will be pigeonholed into a meaningless feud with some midcarder come mania time. i don't want to believe it but i see no reason to have faith in the wwe machine.

 

as for HHH, he may not be in the world title match but I could certainly see him retiring Taker in a -*** affair ending Taker's mania streak and putting himself over an old man just because he is the game!!!! come mania, somewhere on that card, hhh will have his hand raised.

[Guest imajackoff?]

He's had countless ****+ and ***** matches on pay-per-view.

 

Triple H has never been in a ***** match, by anyone's standards, I don't think. The closest he ever got was when he was carried through a brawl by Foley and at best I would call that ****1/4 or ****1/2 (I haven't watched it for awhile). If I remember correctly, he was in exactly four **** matches, which, given, in amazing, but it was with other great workers. It's not like he was ever able to carry anyone or anything. Then again maybe our opinions differ, but I thought we all had realized that we thought HHH was alot worse than we thought because we were caught up with HHH FEVER~! But maybe some of us need to look at the tapes again, eh?

Im not a * counter. I just know when Im entertained by a match and if I was entertained more by one match than another. HHH had great matches against multiple partners in 2000 (Foley 2X, Rock 2X, Jericho). He made Rikishi look good for pete's sake. Plain and simple, he rocked the house during that period.

[Guest Brian]

Watch BackLash again. That match is not that good.

 

The better matches Triple H had in 2000, not going into star ratings but all around ***1/2-3/4:

 

vs. Foley (Street Match, Royal Rumble)

vs. Rock (Iron Man, J-Day)

vs. Jericho (Last Man Standing, Fully Loaded)

vs. Benoit (No Way Out)

 

Three gimicked matches and four great workers (when motivated). The iron man was WWE MOTY.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

The Iron Man match was terrible.

[Guest Brian]

What was terrible about it?

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

The first thing that bothers me is that they don't start doing anything for 10 minutes...but received praise for going all out for an hour.

 

The next thing that bothered me was the 11 falls in 50 minutes...and people used to say that HHH carried Rock through the match...

 

that's like a finish every 4 minutes...and Rock doens't need to be carried through 4 minutes...

 

It's more the peception of the match as some great thing than the match itself...which was decent at best.

 

Then the terrible ending...

[Guest Brian]

The finish bothered me for sure.

 

The falls were nto a problem, that's the illusion that the match creates. You could compare that to Bret/Michaels where both men could have easily (and should have) lost falls at three or four different times during the course of the match. Alot of the falls; the DQ for instance, were creative in the context of the match and created a back-to-back fall situation.

 

I haven't seen the match in a while but remind me; in the first ten minutes aren't they basically just doing an exchange of hold that actually builds off stuff later, like the sleeper hold. I definately need to watch it again.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

What I really hate about Iron Man matches is that if you book them logically...

 

the first fall shouldn't occur for about 20 minutes or so (the length of an average main event match should be) and then falls should come quicker after that for the rest of the match.

 

This match saw them stand around till the ten minute mark...and HHH get pinned 2 minutes later.

 

It gives me a headache.

[Guest Zack Malibu]

I foresee Van Dam winning this one only via Shawn Michaels' returning to go after Triple H. Though if Triple H wins by cheating, they could do this.

 

Have RVD petition for a rematch. Triple H refuses, since he proved he can beat him. RVD can say "you didn't beat me, we're even", referring to the pin in the tag match, or can use the IC Title (and the fact that he's won every other belt originally on RAW) to stake claim to the number one contender spot for the belt. Carry on with the angle, set the rematch for No Mercy, and put RVD over there, then move Triple onto a Shawn feud.

 

RVD has Jericho and Triple H to work with on RAW, but if RVD wins the belt, I can see an RVD/Brock "unification" match to once again have the Undisputed Champion float back and forth. These guys work well with each other, and could really show their stuff if given a main event slot. Put it on a show with Triple H vs. Shawn's rematch, and some other marquee matches, and it'll do well.

[Guest *Slaps Pants, Big Boot*]

Test should win the Raw title sometime before Survivor Series and then lose it at SS to Triple H by a screwjob. It'll be like five years ago all over again, the heat would be tremendous.