The U.S. Empire Is Falling!

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Fair enough. <g> On that score, I agree with you. SKBF, though, should check out the Great Seal sometime.

 

Annuit Coeptis - Providence looks favourably upon our undertaking

Novus Ordo Seclorum - a new order for the centuries

 

The unfinished pyramid indicates that our country is a work in progress. We're meant to build to ever greater heights, excelsior, not tear down everything that works.

[Guest Ozymandias]

We're meant to build to ever greater heights, excelsior, not tear down everything that works.

But not everyone agrees on what really works.

Sometimes you have to rip out the old foundation and start a new one.

[Guest EricMM]

The fact is that a lot of American problems are based around flaws in capitalism, but that doesn't mean socialism or communism won't have more flaws.

 

Nothing is perfect but as lots of people have stated, Democracy and Capitalism have worked for this country. We started as a colony and look where we are now. Compare that to ANY other country on the globe.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Sometimes you have to rip out the old foundation and start a new one.

No, the foundations have been tested countless times, and I think they're perfectly sound. It's not enough to shout loudly that they're rotten, spew inane propaganda, quote cop-killers, and hold rallies. You have to propose a viable alternative, because those foundations are currently supporting 287 million people.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Wow, Eric posted something I completely agree with. Now let the heavens fall.

[Guest danielisthor]

We're meant to build to ever greater heights, excelsior, not tear down everything that works.

But not everyone agrees on what really works.

Sometimes you have to rip out the old foundation and start a new one.

not everybody agrees, but when you have 200+ years of a living, breathing, and working system, that works for a clear majority of its citizens, then building a new foundation seems insane. Tweaking yes, rebuilding no.

[Guest Michael Joel Benoit]

Cletus is right. Socialism has never been tried. The Soviet Union twisted the ideas of Socialism into a sick package that went against the ideas of Karl Marx. That was Communism.

 

REAL Socialism can work. It just hasn't been tried yet.

[Guest big Dante Cruz]

Then why does it have to be the US that tries real socialism. That simply isn't going to happen. You can't up and change a government of a country when the people were brought up with. Despite anti-federal rhetoric, the people in the US are fairly happy with what they have and if you try to up and change it without the support of the people, you're going to get a swift kick to the head.

[Guest Michael Joel Benoit]

But I'm not alone. There are others who believe in Socialism. Hell there is even a Socialist Party in the United States!

[Guest big Dante Cruz]

Never said there weren't those people and I never said there wasn't such a group. The only thing is, they aren't the majority, and if you change a government and an economy straight out and do so against the majority's wishes, you better be in the position to stop very serious backlash.

[Guest KoR Fungus]

<<<Hell there is even a Socialist Party in the United States!>>>

 

And how many votes do they get in the general election?

 

In a country of 250,000,000 people, it's easy to find plenty of people that share the same views as you do, regardless of what those views are. Just because there's a few hundred thousand scattered people that want to try socialism doesn't mean that the US, in general, isn't perfectly happy with capitalism.

[Guest bob_barron]

I have a question for SKBF-

 

How would you improve America and make it better and make it so the majority of Americans are happy??

[Guest Michael Joel Benoit]

Make more homes for the homeless. Thereby eliminating the useless shit we have in this country. And believe me we have ALOT of useless shit in this country. Golf courses have enough land for alot of homes. I would also eliminate Wallstreet cuz Captialism would be dead. Everything is at a reasonable price like DVD's cost $20.00 and computers $10.00. Everyone would get food as I would send food mobiles to give food to people sort of like the milkman but the food man. Everyone owns everything so that means Joe Smloe with the glass eye and beer belly could own part of the New York Yankees or Trump Plaza. No inflation due to low prices for everything. Believe me, more people will buy if it is at a reasonable price. AND STAY OUT OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS! A military yes. But only to defend us[/N]. No special missions or shit. Socialism will take over.

 

Yeah. That's how I would make America better.

[Guest danielisthor]

Cletus is right. Socialism has never been tried. The Soviet Union twisted the ideas of Socialism into a sick package that went against the ideas of Karl Marx. That was Communism.

 

REAL Socialism can work. It just hasn't been tried yet.

in a socialistic world, what is going to be my drive to wake up in the morning and go to work, knowing that if i don't the government is still going to give me my pay. huh? Why should any kid go to medical school knowing that he will make the exact same money as some burger flipper at McDonalds? This is a reason why socialism will not work. The drive to succeed is taken away from you, because no matter what you do to improve yourself, monetarily, it will not matter. You get a base pay, nothing else. No bonuses to work torwards or get. There is nothing to stop the government from deciding that everybody will have to take a pay cut. In a capitalist world, if a business fails, the doors get shut, people lose their jobs and eventually a new business of some sort will come in and start up again. In a socialistic world, the government runs everything. Schools, hospitals, farms, bakeries, meat factories, manufacturing plants, you name it, they run and own it. In this world the government gives you your pay and then charges you for everything. Your rent (because in a socialistic government/world - the people cannot own property), your food, gas for your vehicle, electricity/gas to heat/cool/power your homes. You can save your money, but for what purpose? A bigger car? A house you can't own?

 

What is to stop the government from deciding that if your in the hospital on life support with little hope of survival to just unplug you. Your costing the government money.

 

In a socialistic society, you lose a lot of the FREE Choices that are yours and yours alone to make. Because the Government, your Socialist Government is the higher authority and knows everything, knows what is in you best interest and what is the best interest of its citizens.

[Guest Kingpk]

Make more homes for the homeless. Thereby eliminating the useless shit we have in this country. And believe me we have ALOT of useless shit in this country. Golf courses have enough land for alot of homes. I would also eliminate Wallstreet cuz Captialism would be dead. Everything is at a reasonable price like DVD's cost $20.00 and computers $10.00. Everyone would get food as I would send food mobiles to give food to people sort of like the milkman but the food man. Everyone owns everything so that means Joe Smloe with the glass eye and beer belly could own part of the New York Yankees or Trump Plaza. No inflation due to low prices for everything. Believe me, more people will buy if it is at a reasonable price. AND STAY OUT OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS! A military yes. But only to defend us[/N]. No special missions or shit. Socialism will take over.

 

Yeah. That's how I would make America better.

1) Uh, DVDs are already pretty reasonable, kiddo.

 

2) So, where would you get the food? Force farmers to grow extra crops even though they are in a severe drought?

 

3) What would be the motivation for a company to make computers if they have to sell them for $10? Don't you think that would cut into their profits (and, in turn, worker's wages) a weeeee bit?

 

4) So, if we stay out of international affairs, why should we have a military at all? If the US becomes Socialist, will every country in the world suddenly leave us alone?

 

You obviously are talking out of your ass, come back when you actually know what you're talking about.

[Guest Some Guy]

Make more homes for the homeless. Thereby eliminating the useless shit we have in this country. And believe me we have ALOT of useless shit in this country. Golf courses have enough land for alot of homes. I would also eliminate Wallstreet cuz Captialism would be dead. Everything is at a reasonable price like DVD's cost $20.00 and computers $10.00. Everyone would get food as I would send food mobiles to give food to people sort of like the milkman but the food man. Everyone owns everything so that means Joe Smloe with the glass eye and beer belly could own part of the New York Yankees or Trump Plaza. No inflation due to low prices for everything. Believe me, more people will buy if it is at a reasonable price. AND STAY OUT OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS! A military yes. But only to defend us[/N]. No special missions or shit. Socialism will take over.

 

Yeah. That's how I would make America better.

ANd just how are you going to pay for all this, once you ruin every company in the counry out of business and tax the weathly out of house and home?

 

I stopped reading the article when Gore Midol or whatever showed his supreme lack of knoweldge as to how we elect presidents in America. ANother cry baby Marxist who can't execpt that Gore lost the fucking election has nothing worthwhile to say, as far as I'm concerned he showed his ignorance and thus deserves to be treated the saem way I treat all ignorant people, by ignoring them.

 

SK'sBF, did you know that your hero has admitted to being very pro-Capitalistic is his past rants? Might be time for you to find a new hero.

[Guest Ozymandias]

I was really only using the "tear away the foundation" metaphor in a hypotethical way, socialism can be achieved in a democratic society and still coexist with capitalism. But nobody has really tried that yet, either a system has been completely capitalist or a communist dictatorship has forced a warped version of socialism on the people.

But you'd have to be aware of the realistic limits. Stuff like equal pay for all professions or national welfare or free housing for the homeless can't work because it basicly goes against human nature (as it is now), and assumes a resposibilty of people that most folks simply don't have.

 

BTW- Gore won the election. If Bush had won then there would have been a full statewide recount instead of just doing a handful of counties. His brother runs the state, what did he have to fear?

[Guest Some Guy]

1)I was really only using the "tear away the foundation" metaphor in a hypotethical way, socialism can be achieved in a democratic society and still coexist with capitalism. But nobody has really tried that yet, either a system has been completely capitalist or a communist dictatorship has forced a warped version of socialism on the people.

But you'd have to be aware of the realistic limits. Stuff like equal pay for all professions or national welfare or free housing for the homeless can't work because it basicly goes against human nature (as it is now), and assumes a resposibilty of people that most folks simply don't have.

 

2)BTW- Gore won the election. If Bush had won then there would have been a full statewide recount instead of just doing a handful of counties. His brother runs the state, what did he have to fear?

1) Not true. Britain, Germany, France, and Sweden have all tried/are trying the system you seem to like. Britain's attempt was an abject failure that led to Thatcher being elected and the entire Labour party to change it's platform under Tony Blaire. France is an economic dump as a result, Sweden is not too good either. Germany is currently doing pretty well but give them a few years and they'll fail too.

Virtually all Sociallistic programs that have been tried in AMerica have failed and caused worse consititions for those they tried to help. Welfare didn't work out exactly how JFK and LBJ planned now did it? The New Deal basically started the huge debt that our country has, as well as failed price capping and the failing Social Security program. Carter tried price capping on gas and prices the economy hit the shits, Reagon got rid of them and the economy went way up. Reagon cut taxes, Clinton reaped the benifits, he then raised taxes and a few years later we get "The Bush Depression."

Hmmmmmmm...... Socialism doesn't work.

 

2) Gore did not win Florida, there was miltiple recounts and Gore lost every fucking one of them. Winning Florida gave Bush enough Electoral College votes to win. Bush won the election fair and square despite Gore bringing in Daley (who's dad along with the Mob helped JFK steal his election, which Richard fucking Nixon had enough class to cede to the winner even though he knew he JFK was stealing votes. Nixon has more class than Gore, way to pick your Presidential candidates) to help steal the thing. Just face facts and read the Constitution, all this whining fromteh left is just pathetic, especially almost 2 years after the fact. Get over it and try to send someone out who can beat he President in 2004.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

If Bush had won then there would have been a full statewide recount instead of just doing a handful of counties.

...

 

The Democrats were the ones who insisted on recounting only Democratic counties, idiot. Gore said he'd lost the vote in Florida and he conceded the election. Then he withdrew his concession after the recount was ordered. On top of that, when it looked like Bush was going to win the recount too, dozens of Democrat lawyers descended on Florida like a flock of vultures to pick over any and all possible loopholes, and Gore said he'd sue before accepting the recount result. And last of came the Palm Beach farce. Gore was more concerned about 20 thousand ballots there than 120 thousand in Cook County in Illinois. When the Guardian of Democracy realised he might lose this automatic recount too, he decided to have Democrat officials in four extremely Democratic counties demand hand recounts. Meanwhile, President Bush missed every deadline to demand hand recounts in Republican counties.

 

If Al Gore feels he lost "unfairly" even after all that, all I have to say is this: it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

[Guest Some Guy]

Preach on Sister Marney!

[Guest Ozymandias]

Gore may be a gutless douche but that doesn't change the real vote outcome. Dems wanted recounts in specific counties only because it was their only choice. Jeb & the Scary Make-Up Lady (who both had NO personal interest in who won Florida. Nope, none at all)were BLOCKING A STATEWIDE RECOUNT. Duh. If Bush had won, why wasn't there a single statewide recount to eliminate all doubt? All he had to do was make one phone call, why didn't he? Because he lost, that's why.

 

BTW- Democratic and Republican lawyers both did the vulture thing less than 24 hours after Election Day. 'Twas a formality.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

So now you're criticising the President for letting state laws take their course and not interfering... unlike the guy you call "a gutless douche."

I'm curious, what would you have called President Bush if he had pre-empted Gore and demanded a statewide recount himself, even though he seemed to have won? Something even worse, or just "stupid?"

 

"Hmm, yes, let me co-opt my own victory. Seems like the sensible thing to do."

 

Could you please explain how you can reasonably expect Republicans to be so cunning and evil and yet so godforsakenly dumb at the same time?

[Guest Some Guy]

Irrational emotion=the foundation of Leftism.

 

There is no honest answer, Gore just won damn it!

[Guest danielisthor]

Gore may be a gutless douche but that doesn't change the real vote outcome. Dems wanted recounts in specific counties only because it was their only choice. Jeb & the Scary Make-Up Lady (who both had NO personal interest in who won Florida. Nope, none at all)were BLOCKING A STATEWIDE RECOUNT. Duh. If Bush had won, why wasn't there a single statewide recount to eliminate all doubt? All he had to do was make one phone call, why didn't he? Because he lost, that's why.

 

BTW- Democratic and Republican lawyers both did the vulture thing less than 24 hours after Election Day. 'Twas a formality.

You are referring to Katherine Harris, and by the time the whole fiasco was finished, Bush still won the state. And to make your arguement even more pointless, a recount of all the counties were conducted and after the final vote was retallied, BUSH STILL WON.

 

 

You can also toss in that the Democrats did not want to add the military votes and the mailed votes from citizens overseas that were due in by the following week.

 

Of course since the military doesn't really matter to the democrats since its just a function of the government that sucks money from their liberal socialistic programs and they've spent the last 30 some odd years trying to downsize it, i can see why they wouldn't want the near 90% of those votes to count.

[Guest Some Guy]

I stand by my previous post and agree with Dan.

[Guest Ozymandias]

No, I'm critcizing the "President" for hiding behind red-tape to distort reality which is the same exact thing people always accuse the Dems of doing. If he asked for a statewide recount I would have been glad because it would have sorted this mess out and shown that he really didn't have anything to hide. I don't give a fuck about Gore, I voted against him twice (and if had come down to the 2 of them only, I would have voted for Bush just to spite Gore) - I just wanted the person who the people actually elected (ya' know,...democracy?) to get the Presidency. That didn't happen here.

 

It isn't a matter of "co-opting", if he had actually won he should have nothing to fear and a recount would have done NOTHING but confirm his win to the country.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

There's a broken record somewhere in the building and it's skipping a lot; is it just me or can everyone else hear it too?

[Guest Ozymandias]

I don't have to say anything else because I'm right about this.

 

What would Bush have lost from a full recount if he had really won Florida? Nothing. What would he have gained? Everything. So, why didn't he demand a state-wide recount? Because HE LOST.

That's all there is to it. Nothing else is needed.

 

I'll take your resortion to smart-ass statments as a sign you now realize this.

 

Good night, love. *kiss on forehead*

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Eh. You have a thing for wimples, I take it. <disinfects her habit>

 

I'll take your resortion to smart-ass statments as a sign you now realize this.

No, I'm just tired of trying to make the blind see. I'll wait for my Lord's Second Coming.

[Guest Kingpk]

Well if Gore won his OWN FUCKING STATE none of this would have happened.

 

Hell, even Dukakis won Massachusetts.