Late books / too many fill-in books

[Guest HellSpawn]

Reading Joe Mad's thread, a subject came to my mind, What you think of lazy artist/companies ?

 

I mean, look at what happen with Jim Lee, Madureira, Campbell, Anacleto, Quesada, Charest, or people like the Kubert Boys whom cant draw a single book for more than 4 months before they need a fill in issue, while people like Romita jr, Capullo (way back before he quit Spawn) or Tim Sale draw every f'n month their books, Damn, Romita can handle 2 books.

 

Another thing... how about Top Cow, they fill every Comic guide with ads for their books, and they are always late or never come. Look at Inferno... F'n Silvestri os already involved in Evo (Cyberforce relaunch) when he barely can draw 2 F'n Inferno issues !!! They have great great artist, but whats the point if their books arent on the racks?

 

Im not talkin bout Turner, I know he was on rehab (cancer not drugs) but what about the others? Silvestri, the guy of Aphrodite or Magdalena?

 

Another one is (even when I love Spawn) TMP, what the hell happen with McFarlane???

 

His 10 years anniversary book is late, recently he said is because he got troubles with Gaiman, but c'mon, is this guy a Pro or an indy worker? all his books are way WAY late, several months ago, before #100 he post a message about "What you mean late? I have 100 issues on 100 months!!!" and guess what? #100 was late for like 2 months or so, and since that time it looks like Spawn is again every 6/8 weeks, but of course.... he always have a new toy line every weekend.

[Guest BA_Baracus]

A truly talented comic book artist should be able to draw dynmaic, good looking stuff and do it quickly.

 

Although it doesn't really matter.

 

I'm not a big fan of artists who have to put ridiculous amounts of detail into every panel. Cross-hatching isn't what makes an artist good.

 

I prefer artists who are closer to cartoonists. More simple and stylized, but with a greater sense of life and movement...

[Guest Sassquatch]

"I mean, look at what happen with Jim Lee, Madureira, Campbell, Anacleto, Quesada, Charest, or people like the Kubert Boys whom cant draw a single book for more than 4 months before they need a fill in issue, while people like Romita jr, Capullo (way back before he quit Spawn) or Tim Sale draw every f'n month their books, Damn, Romita can handle 2 books."

 

- HellSpawn

 

 

Romita does not like drawing more than one book. He told Marvel he did not want to continue to be the artist on Thor after he said he would take the job as the artist on Amazing. But when Marvel begged John to be the new artist on the sagging Hulk title he knew this kind've deal might not be around and he might have missed out on something big. Romita stated that he does need time to draw his books and he has stated before that is one of the reasons why the Hulk series has been behind schedule.

 

John was never one of my favorite artists but unlike a lot of the slobs out there today, I can respect the time he takes to draw his books because he does put a lot of work into his drawings. That's commendable in one aspect when you look at some of the sloppy artists out there that take forever but their books still look like shit.

 

Frank Quietly comes to mind right off the bat with his less than stellar art on the New X-Men yet takes forever to finish.

 

"Another thing... how about Top Cow, they fill every Comic guide with ads for their books, and they are always late or never come. Look at Inferno... F'n Silvestri os already involved in Evo (Cyberforce relaunch) when he barely can draw 2 F'n Inferno issues !!! They have great great artist, but whats the point if their books arent on the racks?"

 

- HellSpawn

 

 

Silvestri gets easily distracted and he has admitted this in the past. Inferno has been given the God push at Top Cow for nearly 2 years. But thanks to Michael Turner's bout with cancer (he was going to be one of the main artists) and his slow come back, the book has stagnated. But Top Cow has always been notoriously late with release dates for books. Which is ironic considering their connection with Image.

 

Francis Manapul is also supposed to help draw the books but has been sidetracked with the new "Endgame" storyline involving Lara Croft, Witchblade and Evo.

 

Top Cow is just in one of those REALLY disorganized states of affairs in their offices.

 

"Another one is (even when I love Spawn) TMP, what the hell happen with McFarlane???"

 

- HellSpawn

 

Toad got rich and decided that he did not need to be a lowly artist/writer in comic anymore. Toad also became VERY lazy with his later run in Spawn because he became disillusioned with the idea of working for someone else and that caused dissention between him and the other working stiffs at Image who did not have millions of dollars like Toad.

 

Toad believed his own hype and thought he was above being a lowly comic book worker and decided to let other people do it for him which turned out to be trouble due to Toad's control freak tendencies.

 

"His 10 years anniversary book is late, recently he said is because he got troubles with Gaiman, but c'mon, is this guy a Pro or an indy worker? all his books are way WAY late, several months ago, before #100 he post a message about "What you mean late? I have 100 issues on 100 months!!!" and guess what? #100 was late for like 2 months or so, and since that time it looks like Spawn is again every 6/8 weeks, but of course.... he always have a new toy line every weekend."

 

- HellSpawn

 

 

Spawn #56 was 5 months late.

 

The #100 controversy just showed people how lazy and unprofessional he became in regards to his former job as a writer/artist.

 

Toad could easily work around the Gaiman characters and Gaiman himself he said that Toad could still have a good 10 Anniversary section without using his characters.

 

Toad then made the message stated above by HellSpawn where Toad has been whining about he can't do anything without the Gaiman characters.

 

What's funny is how Image forced Erik Larsen to reach issue #100 by June while letting Toad take his sweet time with his section of the 10 Anniversary book.

 

You can bet Erik is not a happy camper with this situation.

[Guest Sassquatch]

"A truly talented comic book artist should be able to draw dynmaic, good looking stuff and do it quickly.

 

Although it doesn't really matter.

 

I'm not a big fan of artists who have to put ridiculous amounts of detail into every panel. Cross-hatching isn't what makes an artist good.

 

I prefer artists who are closer to cartoonists. More simple and stylized, but with a greater sense of life and movement... "

 

- Baracus

 

 

Something tells me you would have liked Jack Kirby, Baracus.

 

Jack Kirby was the Ric Flair, Lou Thesz, Buddy Rogers, Freddie Blassie, the Destroyer, and the Johnny Valentine of comic books.

 

He wasn't called the "King" for nothing.

 

Jack was so dedicated to his art, that he would finish his pages ahead of the deadline and just for fun, he would draw ANOTHER 3-4 FULL pages of art.

 

Just for fun.

 

When you look at the pieces of shit that are out there drawing today and take 2 months to a YEAR to do an issue, Jack's work ethic puts them all to shame.

 

Nowadays, being late after the deadline is normal for comics and is excepted, especially at Marvel and Top Cow.

 

Jack was in a league of his own when it came to comics and there will NEVER anyone that match that with today's working environment.

[Guest BA_Baracus]

Oh yeah...

 

...I definitely like Kirby. What real comic book fan couldn't?

 

Oh...and I don't think anyone forced Erik Larsen to get issue 100 out by June (especially considering it's yet to come out). He did it or his own accord to catch the books up, since unlike most guys with self owned titles, he actually seems to care about getting the book out on a more or less monthly basis.

[Guest starvenger]

>Romita does not like drawing more than one book.

The only artist that I know of that LIKED drawing 2 monthlys was Ron Lim. I never thought that he was the greatest artist but he definitely isn't the type that you'd call lazy.

 

>John was never one of my favorite artists but unlike a lot of the slobs out there today, I can respect the time he takes to draw his books because he does put a lot of work into his drawings. That's commendable in one aspect when you look at some of the sloppy artists out there that take forever but their books still look like shit.

 

>Frank Quietly comes to mind right off the bat with his less than stellar art on the New X-Men yet takes forever to finish.

 

I think that this is one of the reasons that Marvel is starting to use 2 "regular" artists on some of the titles. If they are gonna expand to 18 titles a year, this would give each artist about 9 issues each, which (one would hope) would allow them to put a little more quality in their work since the deadline would be a wee bit longer.

 

>Silvestri gets easily distracted and he has admitted this in the past. Inferno has been given the God push at Top Cow for nearly 2 years. But thanks to Michael Turner's bout with cancer (he was going to be one of the main artists) and his slow come back, the book has stagnated. But Top Cow has always been notoriously late with release dates for books. Which is ironic considering their connection with Image.

 

There's a reason why Image is number 3, and remains so. I admire them for sticking with artists that are late, and advancing the creator-owned cause, but from the beginning they've never been able to get their shit together in a timely fashion. IIRC, creating a comic in the "Image Style" means (on average) coming up with the plot, sending the plot to the artist, soliciting the book, resoliciting the book 3 months later, getting the dialogue, colouring and lettering done and then releasing the book 1 month later than the resolicit date. Then switch to a 6-week schedule and STILL have them come out late.

 

>Jack was in a league of his own when it came to comics and there will NEVER anyone that match that with today's working environment.

 

The man was crazy. I don't know how he could handle the pace. I was never a big fan of how he drew faces, but everything else was incredible. Talk about a workhorse.

 

>Oh...and I don't think anyone forced Erik Larsen to get issue 100 out by June (especially considering it's yet to come out). He did it or his own accord to catch the books up, since unlike most guys with self owned titles, he actually seems to care about getting the book out on a more or less monthly basis.

 

I don't really care about Larsen's books but I love the fact that he's willing to shoot about comics and stuff AND the fact that he's dedicated to getting his stuff out on time.

[Guest Sassquatch]

Back in late May at Newsarama, Larsen said that Image told him to be up to issue #100 by June in time for the 10th anniversary special. When he found out that Todd did not have his shit together he said, "fuck it" and continued with the Dragon books at his own pace.

 

Larsen was at issue #96 at the beginning of May and was asked to be up to issue #100 by June and he obliged.

 

Either at the end of this month or sometime in the next, Savage Dragon will hit issue #100 and hopefully for Image's sake, they will get out the Image 10 Anniversary special.

 

But don't hold your breath.

[Guest BA_Baracus]

Ah.

 

Well, I don't keep up with any sort of insider comic info. I just knew what he wrote in the letter columns in Savage Dragon.

 

I've got all the Savage Dragon issues and it's definitely cool to see a guy write, pencil and ink that many consecutive issues...

[Guest MaskedWombat]

one thing that alot of people tend to forget, most artists aren't robots, they do have lives. alot of times when their is alot of detail to a book, it's because the penciler has alot of time, or because thats what he or she is known for. often times a books isn't just delayed because of the penciler, it might be because of the inker, or colorist. there are some artists that could probably draw comics in their sleep (mark bagley being one of them with spider man, if you ever seen he do a sketch, he does one faster that alot of artist) and their are artist that have to work in a small room with just their art table, suplies, and bords, because they will get distracted when they see something bright and shinny. alot of times, there are delays because it's not being passed along fast enough. the penciler doesn't just walk over to the inker. nor does the inker scan in the art work and give it to the colorist. there are people that are in the middle of each person that hands off the art to the next, and it may take time between each person. but still, most of the time, the peciler is given the plot atleast 3 months prior to the books release date, their should be no reason for them to delay.

[Guest gthureson]

They're not robots, no.

 

But they are people who have been hired to do a JOB.

 

That job is to draw a monthly comic book. If they can't handle the pace of 1 issue per month, than they should either find somebody looking for a bimonthly artist, or just be a cover artist.

[Guest Sassquatch]

"one thing that alot of people tend to forget, most artists aren't robots, they do have lives. alot of times when their is alot of detail to a book, it's because the penciler has alot of time, or because thats what he or she is known for."

 

-Masked Wombat

 

 

What the hell are you talking about?

 

This "detail takes a long time to do" excuse is bullshit and is exactly the kind of whiny cry baby crap that Joe Madureira, Michael Turner, Billy Tuci, Jim Lee, Toad McFucker (MaFarlane), Frank Quietly, etc. have used in the past when trying to explain why their books are 2 or more months late because of their "distractions" (i.e. laziness).

 

When you look at guys like George Perez, Pat Lee, Sean Chen, Adam Kubert, Alex Ross, Tim Sale, Humberto Ramos, Greg Land, and John Romita Jr. and many others who put HUGE amounts of detail into their books and yet are on TIME for their deadlines, that excuse above does not hold any water.

 

Yes these guys do have lives.

 

After they are through with their pages.

 

These men all have a job to do. They are being paid to have X number of pages completed in an allotted amount of time. They are called deadlines. Deadlines are to ensure that a book does not run behind schedule and is put out on the date given to comic book shops. Unless they run into a problem that they can not get around (family, sickness, other) then they had better be on their goddamn stool finishing up page 8 by the end of the night instead of going out and partying. Then three days later they go back and finish page 8 but still have 14 more pages left with 6 days left on the deadline that they need to have the pages in.

 

When they are finished with their work then they can do whatever they want for however long they want. But until those pages are completed, their #1 duty in life is to do their JOB that they are getting paid for and get their pages finished on time.

 

They have a duty to the fans. They also have an obligation to get their pages done on time so the fans do not have to wait forever for one issue to come out that is 8 months late.

 

No one expects these men to give up their lives. But if they can't handle making a deadline with their books then they might want to think about another line of work if they are not able to finish up their pages in a reasonable amount of time before/after the deadline.

 

4 out of 5 times the reason a book runs late nowadays is because of the artist not having drawn out all of the pages before the deadline hits.

 

That is a fact amongst the comic book industry today and you can look into that if you wish.

 

A couple years ago it was because the writers were lazy or else the front office would have the story that was in the process of being finished up completely changed to fit what the front office wanted to see.

 

But here's an example for you if you think that artist should be given free reign on how long they can take to finish up their pages:

 

Image.

 

Image circa 1992-1996 is the perfect example of the lazy artists being given free reign on how long they can take in order to finish up their pages.

 

Sure the writers were not always on time with their stories but when a book is 8 to 12 months late because someone still hasn't gotten around to finishing up the pages needed to print the comic book then there is something seriously wrong.

 

When Jim Shooter (Marvel) and Julius Schwartz (DC) were the Editors-In-Chief’s at their respective companies, the idea of an artist causing a book to be late was unheard of. Each of those men ran a tight ship that they kept watch of and would make sure the books were out on time. But then when the artist explosion of the late '80/early '90's hit, the artists began to believe their hype and they acted as if they could draw whatever whenever they would want to. They were hot stuff and no one was going to punish them for being late with the "#1" selling book back then.

 

But then when guys like Mike Carlin (DC) and Tom DeFucko (Marvel) took over the reigns of their predecessors, the balance of power shifted. It went from management keeping tabs on what their writers/artists were doing to entrusting the deadlines in the hands of the workers who did not believe they had to follow the deadlines because they were the stars who drew sales.

 

When the bigheaded artists were finally reprimanded for their lateness and laziness in general, they bitched up a storm and took their ball and went to a new home that they themselves had created. Artists and writers could have free reign on what they wanted to do and when they wanted to do it. They all knew they would not follow a deadline but they all figured that they could get books out in a reasonable amount of time from when they would give a release date.

 

The problem was that the artist overestimated their dedication and commitment and instead of being 2 or 3 months late, their books ended up being 6 - 12 months late from their initial release dates.

 

With no boundaries or guidelines, you have no control or direction over what you want to accomplish.

 

This would be a running theme for Image comic for nearly 6 years. Even to this day they are still notoriously late with their books on the promised release dates.

 

I have no sympathy for comic book workers that run past their deadlines for frivolous of BS reasons. If the book is less than a month late then that is fine. At least it is there. But if it takes 2 months or more for the book to come out then something is seriously wrong. I have already outlined when it is okay for a writer/artist to be late with their work (family, sickness, other) but anything besides those reasons is unacceptable.

 

They have an obligation to the fans and the comic book store owners who rely on the deadlines in order to make a profit that does not come 5 months later and with less buys which equals less cash.

 

Such was the case with Origin this year with the issues after #3 taking what seemed to be forever to come out. By the time issue #8 rolled around, it was considered a sales failure due to the low number of copies it sold while Marvel was still expecting fans to gobble the issue up yet they had to wait nearly a 1 year for the 8 issue mini-series to finish up.

 

You can also take a wild guess as to why the books ran that late I could imagine.

 

"often times a books isn't just delayed because of the penciler, it might be because of the inker, or colorist. there are some artists that could probably draw comics in their sleep (mark bagley being one of them with spider man, if you ever seen he do a sketch, he does one faster that alot of artist)"

 

- Masked Wombat

 

 

Next time please use periods and just grammar in general with your posts. It makes it much easier to read for those of us that left our dumbshit-to-english dictionary back at work.

 

Thank you.

 

But do you care to give any examples of an inker or the colorist causing a book to be late?

 

Or are you just talking out of your ass here and do not knowing what the hell you are saying?

 

Just asking.

 

Mark has as far as I have known, has NEVER been the reason for why a book has been late. It is usually the fault of the writer's or the editor's in past instances like with his run on Amazing Spider-Man.

 

Bob Layton would have dry spells that would make the book run behind schedule or Tom DeFucko (DeFalco) would change a story mid-way in and would start all over with a new story handed down to him from Bob Harras or his stooges.

 

Of course Mark already had the pages drawn up for the stories that Harras and Co. would then have changed to something else.

 

Same deal with his run on Thunderbolts. Either the writer (Busiek, Fabian) would get writer's block/get sidetracked with other projects (Busiek) or else they would run past the deadline because they became distracted with outlining future stories instead of the one in front of them (Fabian).

 

Mark is one of the best in the business and his work ethic is something to be proud of.

 

"and their are artist that have to work in a small room with just their art table, suplies, and bords, because they will get distracted when they see something bright and shinny."

 

- Masked Wombat

 

 

Or the new version of Tomb Raider.

 

 

"alot of times, there are delays because it's not being passed along fast enough."

 

- Masked Wombat

 

 

Again, give examples.

 

"the penciler doesn't just walk over to the inker. nor does the inker scan in the art work and give it to the colorist. there are people that are in the middle of each person that hands off the art to the next, and it may take time between each person."

 

- Masked Wombat

 

 

More bullshit that you have not given any examples of it hurting a book's deadline.

 

These "middle men" that you speak of are not the ones who are writing the story or drawing the pages for it. In fact, they have it easy in the grand scheme of things because their job is to ensure that the printer receives the issues AFTER they are completed. I'm not sure where the fuck you are thinking that it is the "middle men" who cause books to be late a significant number of times when it isn't their job to baby-sit lazy workers.

 

Give some significant examples of the "middle men" causing a book to be passed its deadline by a significant number of months and then we'll talk.

 

"but still, most of the time, the peciler is given the plot atleast 3 months prior to the books release date, their should be no reason for them to delay."

 

- Masked Wombat

 

 

Then why the hell are you here telling us why we should feel sympathetic towards these lazy fucks "who have lives" that take 4 months or more to finish up one goddamn issue?

 

I swear to fucking Jeebus, if you want to debate about things then that is cool. I love a good and INFORMATIVE debate that actually has examples/facts of authentication to what someone is saying. Examples people. That's not something hard to ask for, is it?

 

But if you come into these debates/arguments ill-prepared and just spout off bullshit from your ass and do not have the examples/facts to prove back up your claims, then prepare to be ripped to shreds.

 

That's the nature of these things. If you don't have the footing to stand on then don't post in the discussion with inane claims that have no basis or facts to back them up.

 

Do your homework and everything will be fine.

 

That's all.