Why does everyone think Heyman is a genius?

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

I never watched much ECW, so I don't know any of the angles or match endings. Will someone please tell me where the idea of Heyman beon a genius came from. Last time I checked, his company was popular for being more violent and spot-oriented than the other big two. Also, last time I checked he went bankrupt too. Someone please clue me in.

[Guest AndrewTS]

I wouldn't say "everyone" or even "most." However it's an undeniable fact that Vince stole many wrestlers as well as the feel of the shows for his "Attitude" era, which pulled the WWE out of a huge slump. Some credit him for saving the WWF in that indirect manner. Genius? Naw, I don't think so. But anyone who at any time would call Vince that would probably not be stretching much to call Heyman one. Once you've lowered the bar like that...

[Guest Rob Edwards]

Well Heyman had the sense to try the FMW idea in America so maybe "aware of market opportunities" is a better phrase (if stupidly long) for him

[Guest RenegadeX28]

Well, he is also the head writer of Smackdown, so some ppl commend his work with SD. He was the one that wrote the hype of Rey Jr coming to SD.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

How come anytime people see something they thnk is good, they say that Heyman must have booked it? I want to know where all of this appreciation of Heyman is coming from. Did he book anything that was tremendous in WCW, ECW or WWF?

 

However it's an undeniable fact that Vince stole many wrestlers as well as the feel of the shows for his "Attitude" era, which pulled the WWE out of a huge slump.

 

Having your wrestlers stolen doesn't make you a genius. If a wrestler is going to make an impact, either he has that "it" or he doesn't. Cactus Jack wrestled in WCW before he went to ECW. Steve Austin was in WCW before he went to ECW. Those are two wrestlers off the top of my head that went to the WWF and made an impact (I guess that's an understatement). I don't see where Heyman had his fingerprints on any of that. Other wrestlers that Heyman had stolen got over on their in-ring skills. I wasn't aware that Heyman had a wrestling school. I can't think of any wrestlers that Heyman "made" that did anythng of note anywhere else. You could put a spin on that and say that Heyman did a good job of passing of gold colored rocks as gold, or you could say that "Heyman's wrestlers" were only good on the somewhat small stage that Heyman presented them on.

 

Well Heyman had the sense to try the FMW idea in America so maybe "aware of market opportunities" is a better phrase (if stupidly long) for him

 

What's the FMW idea?

[Guest AndrewTS]

Heyman is guilty of having his pet projects, like Rhyno and Justin Tolerable, who got HHH-level of overexposed, but otherwise he generally has a good head for what fans want to see. Heyman's a wrestling promoter while Vince is a "sports entertainment" promotor.

 

Plus, a lot of his ideas are actually common sense, while lots of Vince's ideas completely fly into the face of logic and fans' demands.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

Well, he is also the head writer of Smackdown, so some ppl commend his work with SD.

 

For whatever it's worth, I haven't watched Smackdown in months.

 

He was the one that wrote the hype of Rey Jr coming to SD.

 

They showed his mask and highlights of his early WCW work. Anyone could have done that. As a matter of fact, I feel inclined to say that Kane's hype was better.

[Guest Rob Edwards]

FMW were the first company to base themselves around garbage wrestling (they were Japanese) Heyman noticed the initial success and imported it stateside

[Guest notJames]

You could put a spin on that and say that Heyman did a good job of passing of gold colored rocks as gold, or you could say that "Heyman's wrestlers" were only good on the somewhat small stage that Heyman presented them on.

That's it in a nutshell. Heyman was able to utilize most, if not all, of his roster to their individual strengths. He let the grapplers throw everyone around, the garbage wrestlers brawl, and the high-flyers do their spot fests. He knew that T&A, blood, and mature storylines catered to a more hardcore, "sophisticated" adult audience, the kind that wanted more than the cartoonish product Vince and Co. were dishing out. He also knew who could give promos (Douglas/Foley/Taz) and who should keep their mouths shut (Storm/Spike/Sabu). He knew it wouldn't all work on a larger scale, and didn't need it to.

 

I'm definitely not saying all of his stuff was golden, but when he was on, he was really on. Unfortunately, his inability to compete financially (keeping his company afloat on a national level, keeping his wrestlers under contract) made it harder for him to concentrate on the things he did well (storylines, promos, angles). If he had had a better financial backing and more than himself doing the legwork, ECW might have fared a little better, but I doubt it would still be around, given that the hardcore style essentially died out before they folded.

[Guest Youth N Asia]

In my opinion ECW was the best wrestling product from 1995-2001...he took a bunch of guys no one saw anything in and made them stars.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

Heyman was able to utilize most, if not all, of his roster to their individual strengths.

 

That's a point in his favor, but just because other companies have been stupid enough to see anything in 911 or any of the other wrestlers who were really crap just makes it all relative. Just because someone is misused somewhere doesn't make the guy who knows how to use him a genius. I'll give credit to Heyman for being able to make some guys look good, but I just don't see how he'a genius in the grand scheme of things.

 

 

I'm definitely not saying all of his stuff was golden, but when he was on, he was really on.

 

When was he on? I really would like to know.

[Guest Brian]

But ECW made great leaps and bounds in importing the right talent and the right time and featuring them too. The holy trinity, kings of AAA, and Kaientai vs. Sasuke and friends.

 

The thing was Heyman always knew how to keep the wrestling in the forefront while building angles slowly too. He knew how to push strengths.

[Guest notJames]

When was he on? I really would like to know.

The Raven/Dreamer feud is widely held as the highpoint of his creative output. Nothing else stands out in his ECW work, other than taking a 5'6" judo fighter and making him a somewhat credible monster champion. Oh yeah, and anytime you can make a sub-par brawler a perennial favourite just by giving him a 6-pack of Bud and a 5-minute entrance, you've got something there

 

The Dangerous Alliance in wCw was also a feather in his cap. Great feuds, logical storytelling, and a fitting end culminating at War Games.

[Guest Brian]

Raven Dreamer was a whole lot of Raven though, in association with Heyman.

 

I agree with the Dangerous Alliance as he was mainly responsible for that.

 

Just generally he's found so many ways to make so many characters (and wrestlers) more than they are.

[Guest Lord of The Curry]

I forget where I read it from, but in an interview an ex-ECW guy said that "Heyman has the ability and motivation to make a guy like Lil Guido go out there and think that he's Hulk Hogan."

 

Unlike Vince and Bischoff, Heyman started out big, then went small. Whereas Vince and Uncle Eric (go Cactus Jack!) worked their way up in their respective companies, Heyman went down. He went from a guaranteed-money contract in WCW, to working with a young promoter named Tod Gordon in Eastern Championship Wrestling.

 

Heyman saw the problems in WCW and knew that in order to fully connect with the fans, he had to be different. Heyman is the man that you can pretty much credit for bringing guys like Rey Mysterio Jr., Juvi, Psicosis and many other Lucha/Japanese stars into his promotion. Shit, he took The Great Sasuke, whom the WWE left lying by the roadside and turned him big, even if for a short time.

 

Where others see failure, Heyman sees an oppurtunity to create a new star. When people faulted Ravens work in the ring, Heyman put a positive spin on it and created the dark-promo'd Raven today that is still a huge cult wrestler. Where in 1997 the WWE would have told a guy like Spike Dudley to piss off, Heyman saw a passionate performer and one of the best bumpers in recent memory. Where most people would dismiss a guy like Kid Cash as "old" or "washed up", Heyman revitilized him and made him into one of the biggest ECW stars of the final two years of the company.

 

Not to mention his writing abilities. Heyman, in the WWE, booked Austin vs Angle and Angle vs Benoit, the two best angles of 2001. He also booked Angle vs Benoit at WrestleMania 17, a match that has been one of the only matches in recent WWE memory to showcase real, in-depth psychology. Heyman was the saving grace behind the Alliance angle. When the WWE took him out of the picture, the thing bombed.

 

I'd say probably that the reason that Heyman is successful and a genius is because.......he's a wrestling fan. Not a Hollywood fan. Not a sports-entertainment fan. Heyman is a wrestling fan.

[Guest cabbageboy]

Heyman was on the top of his game on a recent DVD I got: Wrestlepalooza 97. The first half was kinda dull (just jobbers, midcard acts) but the show built to a frenzy by the Tommy/Raven blowoff match. Then watch after that match as Sabu/RVD/Lawler attack everyone in sight while the announcers sit in stunned silence....then Taz puts a stop to it, faces Sabu in their match, actually jobs clean without losing any heat whatsoever (Sabu reverses the Tazmission), then wins the TV title from Douglas in an impromptu match in less than 3 minutes.

 

All of this happened in a single segment that went about 45m long! Everyone who went in came out more over than they were before aside from Douglas (who won the world title at the next PPV anyway), and Raven (who was leaving for WCW). Dreamer got the big win on Raven at long last and sent him packing. RVD and Sabu looked like world beaters when they destroyed everyone. Taz got more over by putting a stop to it....then Sabu got more over by beating him, then Taz got even MORE over by winning the TV title.

 

When I saw this on the DVD I was left breathless by it, it was that fast moving and entertaining. I'd say that sums up what Heyman can do when he puts his mind to it.

[Guest FeArHaVoC]

Heyman saw the problems in WCW and knew that in order to fully connect with the fans, he had to be different. Heyman is the man that you can pretty much credit for bringing guys like Rey Mysterio Jr., Juvi, Psicosis and many other Lucha/Japanese stars into his promotion. Shit, he took The Great Sasuke, whom the WWE left lying by the roadside and turned him big, even if for a short time.

Heyman also saw the talents in guys like Jericho, Malenko, Benoit & Eddie Guererro. All guys who wrestled mostly outside of America before ECW.

[Guest BlackRainbow1025]

I don't really understand your point. You make this thread to ask a question. People answer your question and you shoot down their answers. If you knew the answer beforehand, why'd you ask the question? You said you haven't watched much ECW, you said you don't watch Smackdown!. I see your point on some things but your point on others is just wrong. Sure, 911 was a joke (haha, a little Flavor Flav for ya). But so was Raven, Heyman made him a God among the ECW fans. Benoit had never wrestled in the United States, but Heyman brought him in. He brought in the luchadores. He gave Foley and Austin a chance to make their characters, which in turn, made their careers in WWF/E. Like others have said, he had the ability to get nobodies over and turn them into big names (among his fans at least). The Rey hype was great. Sure, Kane's was bigger, but before the Mysterio video packages and whatnot, when's the last time WWF/E did anything like that? The Kane hype was done b/c the Mysterio hype worked like a charm.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

Ummm.... Benoit was in WCW before he went to ECW. And, Cactus Jack had been in existance for YEARS before he went to ECW.

[Guest BlackRainbow1025]

Have you ever seen Cactus Jack's promos in ECW? I don't believe he had any promo time in WCW or USWA or whereever else he wrestled before hand. It allowed him to get better at them, and his WWF/E career was made off of his promos (then of course the cage dive, but that was in the middle somewhere).

 

Benoit was in WCW first? What did he do exactly? I don't remember seeing him in any feuds or doing anything important until AFTER ECW. I'm wrong in my statement that he had never wrestled in America until Heyman brought him in. I should've said, Heyman was the first to actually use Benoit and show he has talent in America.

[Guest Brian]

Benoit worked a few dark matches for the WWF pre-WCW (as did Malenko and Guerrero), but he was never in WCW prior to ECW. Heck, Heyman even pleaded with Vince to sign them.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

Have you ever seen Cactus Jack's promos in ECW? I don't believe he had any promo time in WCW or USWA or whereever else he wrestled before hand. It allowed him to get better at them, and his WWF/E career was made off of his promos (then of course the cage dive, but that was in the middle somewhere).

 

Benoit was in WCW first? What did he do exactly? I don't remember seeing him in any feuds or doing anything important until AFTER ECW. I'm wrong in my statement that he had never wrestled in America until Heyman brought him in. I should've said, Heyman was the first to actually use Benoit and show he has talent in America.

He had plenty of promo time in WCW. How else was he able to headline against Sting if he didn't talk? If anything, I'd say some of his ECW stuff was just average to me. And I disagree with the ECW promos making his WWF career since he made a name for himself by being one of the few people to ever get a clean pin on Undertaker.

 

And on Benoit, he was in the opening tag match on a PPV in 93 with Bobby Eaton and he was also in the tag title tourney in 92(I think).

[Guest RenegadeX28]

Well, he is also the head writer of Smackdown, so some ppl commend his work with SD.

 

For whatever it's worth, I haven't watched Smackdown in months.

 

He was the one that wrote the hype of Rey Jr coming to SD.

 

They showed his mask and highlights of his early WCW work. Anyone could have done that. As a matter of fact, I feel inclined to say that Kane's hype was better.

Well, Heyman himself wasn't the one that made the video montage for him. Well, the original plan was to just have Rey Jr explode onto the scene out of nowhere. They would have hotshotted the angle. Heyman was the one with the idea of having gradual hype for him, so when he did have his first match, everyone would watch.

 

I don't about you, but I enjoy SD better than RAW. I always expect RAW to be good, since it is live, and ratings would go up, but it always disaapoints me. I never get disappointed from an SD.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

He was the one that wrote the hype of Rey Jr coming to SD.

Actually, IIRC it's Dean Malenko that requested that. I think he's in charge of the whole Cruiser division or something.

 

Paul isn't really a genius, except maybe in getting so many guys to work for him with just a smile and a promise that the paychecks will be signed and ready to deliver just whatever day the money gets here.

 

However, I give him credit for taking bumps to get his guys over. Taking that Van Terminator the other month on Raw was unreal.

[Guest notJames]

Benoit worked a few dark matches for the WWF pre-WCW (as did Malenko and Guerrero), but he was never in WCW prior to ECW. Heck, Heyman even pleaded with Vince to sign them.

Clash of the Champions XIX '92: Pillman/Jushin Liger vs. Benoit/Beef Wellington

 

SuperBrawl III '93: Benoit vs. 2 Cold Scorpio

 

Slamboree '93: Benoit/Eaton vs. 2 Cold Scorpio and Bagwell

 

Plus I recall Benoit and Brad Armstrong doing a bit of a mini-feud around that time period.

 

(Matches courtesy of SKeith's RetroRants)

[Guest Trivia247]

Also remember, ECW was pretty raw, it broke wrestling Kayfabe taboos they were underground and openly mocked other Promotions, Joey Styles takes pot shots at other feds routinely. When Heyman took over from Gordon, He mixed that Hardcore no rules Fan Parcipatation ECW style, with World Class wrestling that was going through ECW.

 

Remember ECW was the middle ground between Japan and WCW and WCW to WWF.

Benoit, Malenko, Guerrero, Jericho, Austin, Foley, Casts of hundreds we know and people mark for went through ECW and developed their styles there to a More rabid crowd.

 

Hell Rey Mystero Jr had one of his First American Matches in ECW. Because he had a stable contract with WCW.

 

it was a collective effort, but it was Heyman's vision that made this Renegade fed a Underground sensation. Made people want to know, what in the hell is ECW? That doesn't mean he was a Financial wizard heh.

 

Another thing, Heyman in ECW had a way to Push EVERYONE. Every match had a feel that it was Important. Even a Jobbers match where 911 comes out and trash the wrestlers, but everyone was allowed to go out there and do their thing. Instead of just giving the rub to the Main Guys.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

Eh, Austin wasn't there long enough to develop anything other than the beginnings of the "Stone Cold" character as the matches he had there with talentless hacks like Mikey and Sandhick *really* sucked ass.

[Guest Trivia247]

better than wandering in the WWF as the Stunning one

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Basically, Heyman created what Vince called "WWF Attitude" which effectivley saved his company. Wether or not that is "genuis" is debatable.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

better than wandering in the WWF as the Stunning one

Eh, I loved the "Stunning" Steve gimmick, especially during the Hollywood Blonds days.