The Great Matches

[Guest Dmann2000]

I suggest every week someone should post a match they consider to be great and then everyone else can chime in with their opinions on what makes this match great for them (or offer criticism of the pick if they feel like it) If possible we could have it pinned. Let me know what everyone thinks, I'll post a match tomorrow to discuss.

[Guest kingkamala]

I think the first one you pick should be a balls out classics Hart Vs Hart(Wrestlemania 10, Summerslam 94 either one), Flair Vs Steamboat(Pick anyone from 89) or Austin Vs Hart

[Guest BAR]

Out of the ones above I think you should choose Bret/Owen - SummerSlam 1994, the WMX match is my all time favourite but it gets talked about a hell of a lot. Personally, I love both matches and think they are two of the best WWF matches ever.

[Guest Dmann2000]

I can understand that, though I hope to get some underrated less familiar suggestions eventually

[Guest kingkamala]

If you want underrated how about Rey Mysterio Jr- Eddie Guerrero from Halloween Havoc 97 sure people love this match but isn't talked in the same regard as Austin-Hart or even HBK-Taker Hell in a Cell when people talk about match of the year from 97

[Guest BAR]

Yeah, that match is the best WCW match I've seen (although I still haven't seen the Owen Nitro).

[Guest godthedog]

i say make some more contraversial picks, as that usually leads to more actual discussion. you pick bret/owen from wrestlemania you'll just get lots of posts saying "i agree" or "definitely." you pick the bret/owen IRON MAN match, & you'll get a good degree of arguing.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

I agree on Misterio-Eddie being underrated. It is the best WCW match ever, and possibly the best US match ever aswell.

[Guest kingkamala]

WOAH WOAH WOAH best US match in 97 most likely, Best WCW match ever MAYBE... but best US match ever that's another story maybe in the top 15 or 10 though. I can think of three matches from 97 alone in the US that are debatably better then Guerrero Vs Mysterio Jr.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Nope, I would agree. Best US match ever. Better than Flair/Steamboat. Better than Hart/Hart. Better than anything in North America.

[Guest wolverine]

Rey vs. Eddy is the best U.S. match I've ever seen as well. Just a few minutes shy of *****.

[Guest Dmann2000]

We have our winner, For the week of 9/22-9/28 the match to be discussed will be

 

Rey Mysterio Jr vs Eddie Guerrero Cruiserweight title Match from Halloween Havoc 1997

 

The match that made my father, who really hates wrestling, say "now that's cool"

[Guest godthedog]

will the discussion take place in this thread, or a separate one?

[Guest kingkamala]

I think we should keep it here, I'm too lazy to make another thread. Now I believe Mysterio-Guerrero has a great match flow and all the spots are perfectly timed and the crowd heat is incredible, a hell of a lot more crowd heat then Hogan-Piper which main evented the card. It's the kind of match that even a non-fan can get into which you can't say about for 95% of wrestling matches from NA or Japan. Guerrero played a great badass heel that didn't give a shit in the match while Mysterio played the courageous baby face well. I'd give it *****, I don't think that there is anything wrong with this match as a whole.

 

Now as for Best US match ever, now let's be serious here, did it have the after effect of say... Austin/Hart or did it reveloutionize wrestling like Michaels-Ramon from WMX or even have a great storyline going into it like Hart-Hart I'd rate it the top ten maybe and that's a defenite maybe but best of all time no way Jose

[Guest godthedog]

i'll watch it again before i comment on the match itself, but i don't think influence should have any bearing on a match's greatness. the greatness involved in a match itself only involves the work done by those involved, the story they told & the drama therein; the workers have no control about how it affects other matches or storylines, so i think it's unfair to judge the workers with any basis in that. same case with feuds or storylines leading up to it: i only rate it based on how well the storyline was reflected in the match itself, i don't penalize the workers for what the writers might have done wrong. it seems slightly ridiculous to me to say something like, "bret/owen is better than hbk/mankind because the storyline going into bret/owen was so much better," because that's not really rating the match; the hbk/mankind match didn't suffer at all from a lack of backstory.

[Guest Dmann2000]

Yes, I'll need to rewatch the match as well, but we will keep the discussion in the folder, hoping after a couple weeks if this keeps up it'll get pinned.

[Guest BAR]

I just watched it again today and it moves even higher up my list of favourite matches of all time. Definately ***** by my standards and the best WCW match I've seen. Again, I'll state that I haven't seen Bret/Benoit.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

No need to worry, it completely smokes Bret/Benoit.

 

Rate the match on quality, not on influence. How were Guererro and Misterio ever supposed to have an influencial match in a promotion that wouldn't push them due to their size? How would that work, exactly? More importantly, how does that make the match any worse?

 

Guererro/Misterio is better than Hart/Austin, better than Hart/Hart, and better than anything else to take place in North America durring the '90's. I would put it above any Flair/Steamboat match from '89, too.

[Guest godthedog]

Guererro/Misterio is better than Hart/Austin, better than Hart/Hart, and better than anything else to take place in North America durring the '90's. I would put it above any Flair/Steamboat match from '89, too.

but you neglect the essential question: why?

[Guest kingkamala]

Guerrero-Mysterio didn't even reveloutionize cruiserweight wrestling that would probably go to some thing like Malenko-Mysterio(Which is a worse match I know but just a little worse). Don't give me excuses like Austin-Hart had the brawling in the crowd segment and Hart-Hart had the chinlock who really gives a shit, state why you'd call the match Best US match of all time or even best US match of 97(Which I don't think it is either)

[Guest godthedog]

i think ricky was referring to 96 austin-hart. he doesn't think their 97 match is ***** cause austin didn't use the million dollar dream.

[Guest kingkamala]

Well I think there 97 match is better then there 96 match but it's probably just me*incoherent mumbling*

[Guest godthedog]

from what i've seen, opinions on the board go pretty much right down the middle between which match they think is better. i personally like 97.

 

but i digress.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Once again, influence isn't what the match should be graded. Guererro/Misterio's influence is that it was better than every other Cruiserweight match I've seen in North America, and better than every other match I've seen in North America, for that matter. Quality is the driving force here.

 

Why? because each spot played out perfectly. That's not to say each one was 100% crisp or flawless, but often times that made the match seem even better because it appeared as more of a fight than say, Rey/Psichosis, where everything hits perfectly, but the match never seems in doubt. Rey/Eddy worked on every levle, because Rey sold like a God, Eddy made his offense look awesome, reeled him in at just the right moments, and controlled the flow of the match perfectly. The finish is the only thing that I can find wrong with it, and even then, I'm not really sure if it's a problem to begin with. I remember someone saying that they would have liked it more had Eddy gone for a regular Black Tiger Bomb before going for Splash Mountain, and I suppose I would agree with that. Splash Mountain had become way too familiar a spot for me to doubt what Rey would do, and sure enough, that's what happened.

 

However, even with this "fault" I can't say that there are any matches I've seen that I would consider signicantly better. This is on levle with the best matches I have ever seen, and is better than many of the previously mentioned "five star matches" that people would have me believe to be superior. While I've heard there are better matches than Rey/Eddy (one of which should be coming in the mail soon!), I have yet to see them. Once I see a match significantly better than Rey/Eddy, I will lower my rating (*****) but until then, it's the best NA match I've ever seen.

[Guest godthedog]

i watched it again today, & here's my thoughts:

 

borderline great match, but not quite. rey's offense LOOKS awesome, but it requires eddie to do a bit too much of the goofy standing around while he gets ready to jump, which takes away a bit of the drama. rey also didn't seem enough like he was really trying to fight back, suffering from that wwf match syndrome of "i'll sell your offense and not make it look like i'm trying to make a comeback until the exact moment that i actually MAKE a comeback." it didn't look like enough of a struggle. in some cases like bret hart matches this works, because it's in bret's character to play possum till he sees an opening, but rey's character was wrestling with his heart on his sleeve & there wasn't any outsmarting going on. bottom line, i don't think rey played a good enough babyface for this match to beat out a flair/steamboat, where steamboat played the babyface to absolute perfection. eddie's performance was absolutely flawless, in controlling the pacing & in the crispness of his movement & in generally acting like a dick. rey was just missing that complimentary piece to complete the match.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Seemed to me that Rey was doing just fine. Yes, on previous dates, it had appeared that Rey was the standard "do my best, and use my heart" babyface, but at Halloween Havok, he was smarter, used more counters, and used Eddy's weaknesses to his full advantage. It can also be said that Eddy was having a one-man show, but I thought Rey played his part perfectly. To me, Eddy's performance + Rey's ability > Flair's performance + Steamboat's ability. Steamboat may have played a better babyface than Rey, actually, but the way Rey/Eddy came together was superior to any Flair/Steamboat I've seen.

[Guest Dmann2000]

Having just re-watched the match I have a few points to make:

 

1)I loved how Eddie used the restholds (abdominal stretch, camel clutch) as opportunities to try and rip off Rey's mask

 

2)Rey's speed actually helped Eddie because it would make those times that Eddie managed to counter or duck one of Rey's quick moves show how smart and quick-thinking a wrestler Eddie was.

 

3) A great heel knows to pause and stall ever so slightly before laying a blow onto his opponent. Eddie does this to perfection.

 

This match is a textbook example of how a heel should act

[Guest Dmann2000]

I just realized I have so many wrestling matches from tapes I'd just rent to dub one match. Excluding Japan I probably have a high ****-***** ratio

 

If I were to rate Guererro/Mysterio, and I feel I suck when it comes to handing out star ratings, I'd go *****, because anything that gets my Dad's attention must be REAL good

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

***** as well in my book, and the best north american cruiserweight match ever by a longshot.

 

I still think Flair/Steamboat and Bret/Austin SS 96 are both a little better, though. It was mentioned that not every spot hit completely crisply and flowed in Rey/Eddy, well, they did in Bret/Austin. They just didn't do any backflip springboard DDT's or Splash Mountains countered into Ranas (which was contrived).

[Guest Dmann2000]

Just a quick note, around every Friday/Saturday you guys should start posting in here what match you'd feel like discussing for the next week. Based on overall consensus I'll then post that week's choice on Sunday