5* Matches

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Read the post. Redneck said he wanted this to start discussion, and that pertains to more than just listing matches.

 

And I already explained why "just cuz" defeats the purpose of star ratings, why it's better to discuss, and why Benoit/Sullivan isn't five stars.

[Guest Retro Rob]

Ricky, I just have one question for you. Do you consider match ratings FACT or OPINION?

[Guest Tim Cooke]

I only consider opinions valid of people who actually have a grasp on what they are talking about.

 

I would say that myself and Ricky follow pretty closely in star ratings...based on what we have watched.

 

Tim

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

This one's for Ricky or Tim.. Either of you know the date for the Tiger/Kid match I mentioned in my earlier post in this thread? Seen it maybe? I've been dying to find out the date to that thing, but can't find it anywhere.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

DK and TM have had many matches. I have only seen about 3 of them as I can't stand DK for the most part.

 

So I don't have an answer for ya.

 

Tim

[Guest Retro Rob]

AO, give me a quick description of the match.

 

Tim, I agree with you. I won't go out to see a match that a beginner, or just plain stupid, tape reviewer has pegged at *****. I just think that an individuals rating of the match is their own opinion. Therefore, there is room for personal preference to kick in. With a good tape reviewer, the reader should know who their favorite wrestlers are and information like that, which could be used to decipher the match ratings.

 

For example, Scott Keith loves Canadians, so when he rates a match with a Canadian, you should take that into consideration.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

It sounds like you've already got a grasp on what my opinion is, but just to clarify:

 

It's all opinion, but it should be valid opinions. "It made me mark out" is not what I consider valid. If people use logic and back up what they say, I'm a happy camper.

 

And I don't think Scott Keith knows what he's talking about, most of the time. Seeing him rate HHH/Michaels **** doesn't restore any confidence in him, either.

 

I've only seen one DK/TM match, and it ended in a DQ, so I can't help you there.

[Guest Retro Rob]

OK. I agree with all of that. I just think that in a rating system, that has to be a marginal amount of room for personal preference.

 

AO, I have a few DK-TM matches dl'ed on my PC, so was that piledriver move the finish? If not, what was?

[Guest Midnight Express83]

I seen almost the whole series. There is only two I can pull out of the list. The MSG match from 82 and the final one where DK goes over.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

The tombstone thing, wasn't the finish. Tiger followed with a moonsault for the pin while Kid was laid out.

 

 

There are only two Tiger/Kid matches that I think should be considered ****+. I believe they are from 80 or 81 or something. They are the first two on the Best of the Dynamite Kid comp from RF video.

 

SPOOOOOOOOOILERS

 

 

 

 

1. Kid takes Tiger apart, and works his legs over. Kid hits the move now known as the Backdrop Driver, and hits Tiger with a Cradled Tombstone, Heabutt combo. Kid pulls Tiger up on 2, and hits him with another Cradled Tombstone. This time Kid misses the Flying Headbutt, but recovers and goes for the Texas Cloverleaf to go back to the legs. Tiger escapes and gets a fluke roll up pin. Best Sqaush with Fluke ending I've ever seen. ****1/4

 

2. Super fast match where they trade reversals and mat submssions at warp speed to start. Kid turns a tilt a whirl into a Tombstone, but misses the head BUTT. Tiger drops Kid on his head with a nasty elevated DDT, but misses his a head BUTT of his own. Tiger hits a Plancha, but Kid takes the advantage on the outside. Kid tries to suplex Tiger in, but Tiger escapes. They trade like 4 rear waistlocks, that ends with Tiger hitting a High Angle German Suplex pin for the win. Easily the two's best match and in IMO is essential viewing. ****1/2.

 

The rest of their matches are toned versions of these two, with a few different high spots mixed in. Though influential, they lacked the depth of these two matches.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Did it end with a moonsault? I was almost positive the match ended with that weird move.

 

I'll try to explain that move, because it really stood out in the match. Tiger held DK in a sort of gutwrench position, with DK's head down around TM's knee level. Kid's body was at a funny angle, and he just got driven down on his skull. Almost a ganso bomb (the misawa/kawada version) but Kid was in a different position. The move was fuckin' repulsive. The rest of the match was the stellar DK/TM greatness.

 

Tim, why in the HELL don't you like Dynamite Kid?

[Guest Trivia247]

SK had added the one and only ***** ECW match was Raven and Stevie Ricards vs Pitbulls 2 out of 3 fall Dog collar match.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

I hate to break it to you, but there was no ECW match was *****.

 

Togo/Taka/Teioh v Sasuke/Hamada/Yakushiji from Barely Legal was as close as it gets and that match was no where near what those guys produced in Japan.

 

Tim

[Guest Trivia247]

Im Only going by what Scott Keith gave a *****

ECW World tag title match, double-dog collar: Raven & Stevie Richards v. The Pitbulls. Scott Keith completists will already know my feelings about this one, but for the rest of you, this is a fairly famous match that is an answer to a trivia question about myself I once posed in a previous rant. The stipulation here is that the Pitbulls have to split up should they lose. Stevie Richards is notably absent from the introductions, and Beulah explains that he has a “broken arm” and will not be participating tonight, so for the sake of fairness the match will be 2/3 falls. Pitbull 2 attacks and hangs Raven with the chain they’re connected with, while Pitbull 1 heads to the back. Vicious chairshot for Raven as #1 finds Stevie in the dressing room, and indeed he’s already a bloody mess. Raven brings a table in, piledrives Pitbull 2 THROUGH the table, and gets the pin at 2:07. Wild spot there. Raven & Stevie double-DDT #1 and get a two-count. Steviekick gets two. Raven and #2 bring another table in and it gets set up. Stevie gets superbombed through it for the pin at 4:17 to even things up. Okay, that was all just the warmup session for the REAL fun. Brawl into the crowd as Pitbull 1 KILLS Stevie, but gets chaired. Meanwhile, #2 and Raven head back in, where a third table gets involved and the ref gets bumped in the process. The Dudleyz run in to make it 4-on-2, and the heels pair off and superbomb both Pitbulls at once. However, since the law of heel-babyface relations says that a babyface having his own move done to him does not have to sell, they invoke it and pop right back up. DDTs for the heels, and the Dudleys get superbombed. Yet another table is set up for Raven, but he hits his head on the EDGE of the table and I’m shocked he’s still alive. That gets two, so he’s alive. They beat on Stevie, while Raven readies an ether-soaked rag to choke #2 out. That spot was intended as a rib on Jim Cornette’s booking. Raven puts him on two tables, legdrops him through the first one, and elbows him through the second one. This being only 1995, that’s devastating enough to require EMTs for Pitbull 2. In the ring, Stevie goes up and gets crotched, and #1 suplexes him through a table for two. Raven unhooks himself from the chain and makes the save. Francine & Beulah do the mandatory catfight, but Raven DDTs Francine to end that. Tommy Dreamer runs in to take Pitbull 2’s place and beats the hell out of Raven. DDT gets the pin at 14:41, but Joey’s not sure who actually gets the belts. Turns out to be a moot point, as Bill Alphonso comes in to overturn the decision since Dreamer isn’t legally in the match, and he was just being nice allowing it to go on under 2/3 falls rules anyway. And the pin on Raven doesn’t count, so he’s still never pinned him. Tod Gordon gets all indignant and comes in to argue with Fonzie, and Big Dick sneaks in to use the currently-banned chokeslam on Dreamer. Fonzie suddenly waffles and decides to un-ban the chokeslam so that he doesn’t have to suspend Big Dick, and with that 911 makes himself known. For those who didn’t follow this stuff back then, fans had basically been waiting since the day of Fonzie’s introduction as Evil Ref for 911 to chokeslam the shit out of him, but Fonzie countered by banning the move. So 911 comes out, gives Fonzie the BIGGEST CHOKESLAM EVER, holding him up there for like 10 seconds, and the place is just going apeshit. Pitbull #2 rejoins things, and they set up Raven for the superbomb, then put Stevie on HIS shoulders, superbomb both guys at once, and Tod Gordon personally counts the pin at 19:40 as the Pitbulls finally beat Raven & Richards to win the titles. Whereas normally overbooking is done too often in the wrong place, this was exactly the right amount of excess done in the right match, with the right finish. And given the total insanity of everything after the 5:00 mark and all the intricate storylines weaved into one 20:00 match, this became the one and only match in ECW history that I ever rated *****, so for those of you who still e-mail me asking about it, there you are. This match was also voted #1 in the DVDVR awards for the Best ECW match of the 90s, so many agree with me on it. Of course, many also disagree, most notably Dave Meltzer (albeit in a nice way). This is definitely a match you need the right context to fully “get”, but I’d recommend checking it out at least once to see what Paul is capable of with the right motivation and guys.

 

But hell if don't go by SK and go by your own personal Rating System then Fine I SAY

Well then I say the Haku vs Hercules match at WM5 was *****

[Guest bob_barron]

ummm Trivia- just cause SK calls a match 5* doesn't make it 5*.

[Guest Trivia247]

As anything you call a 5* match Makes it a 5* match

 

So its all a Matter of perception and opinion and NOT fact..

 

And I say that match is, and since its a Opinion and NOT a fact you can't say Its or Im wrong because of Above statement So HA! Take dat elitests.

[Guest Midnight Express83]

true it is opinion. But opinions can be off. To say that match was five stars is your opinion. Now, WHY do you call it *****? Back your opinion by reason. That isn't elitist, that is just common fucking sense.

 

Every match I call ***** I can say why. ANd it being more than just "It rules, wrestler X is my favorite wrestler".

[Guest Ravenbomb]

my worthless list:

Low-Ki vs. Christopher Daniels from the ROH round robin tourn.

Raven and Stevie Richards vs. Pitt Bulls

Kurt Angle vs. Chris Benoit from WM17

Raven vs. Chris Benoit from Souled Out 98

Hardy Boyz vs. E&C from No Mercy '99

Owen Hart vs. Bret Hart from WMX

Micheals vs. Ramon ladder match from WMX

Austin vs. Rock from WM17

Austin vs. Hart from WM13

Jushin Liger vs. Brian Pillman

Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk from GAB 89

Rey Mysterio Jr. vs. Eddy Guerrero from Halloween Havoc

Randy Savage vs. Ricky Steamboat from WM3

[Guest Retro Rob]

As anything you call a 5* match Makes it a 5* match

 

So its all a Matter of perception and opinion and NOT fact..

 

And I say that match is, and since its a Opinion and NOT a fact you can't say Its or Im wrong because of Above statement So HA! Take dat elitests.

But you never saw the match, so how could you consider it anything?

[Guest HartFan86]

I hate to break it to you, but there was no ECW match was *****.

What would you rate Guerrero vs. Malenko from Hostile City Showdown?

[Guest Tim Cooke]

***-***1/4 for any of the Guerrero/Malenko series. Very comparable to the Benoit/Hart 10/4/99 supposed Classico.

 

Tim

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Strange how everyone around here suddenly wants opinions to be justified. 'bout friggin time.

 

Trivia, you're forgetting the part where you convince people to care about your opinion.

[Guest RobJohnstone]

***-***1/4 for any of the Guerrero/Malenko series. Very comparable to the Benoit/Hart 10/4/99 supposed Classico.

 

Tim

I dunno if I would go as low as *** trying to prove the match wrong. Thye were great, not five stars but definitly in **** area. Shit, personally I have only seen ab out 5 or 6 ***** out of NA. And about 15 or so from japan. They are few and far between

 

--Rob

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

I'd call pretty much the whole series ****ish.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

By "the whole" series, what do you mean, exactly? Those two worked together a lot, so it covers lots of ground.

 

Out of the ECW matches, I wouldn't rate any of what I've seen above ****'s. The fairwell match, especially, is way overrated in some circles.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

I can't call anything I've seen 5*. Giving a match the full marks denoted by 5* is incorrect as no match is 100% perfect, there is always something, no matter how tiny, that could make the match better. This is why I use percentages to rate matches in my reviews, so I have 100 different ratings to play with, not just 20.

 

Also, I believe that a wrestling match should be rated entirely on how much it entertains the reviewer. Pro wrestling's purpose as an art form is to entertain the viewer, that is what the wrestlers, the production crew, the announcers, everyone is trying to do, so the rating should reflect how succesful they are. Now, I do not mean entertainment in the 'mark out' sense, although I believe that should be part of it, as bias is a part of all reviews, a reviewer can be entertained by anthing. I am, for example, entertained by well constructed spot fests, great matwork, excellent psychology, realism, emotion, stiffness, the use of character etc. etc. etc.

 

As such, I rate the following matches very highly, although they are not 5*, or 100%:

 

Kawada vs. Kobashi, June (?) 1998 - Great running psychology, in that the moves they use make sense and fit together beautifully creating a strong sense of realism, great stiffness, massive heat, great selling from Kawada and, of course, the wonderful character and charisma of Kobashi.

 

Jyushin Lyger vs. Great Sasuke, Super J Cup 94 - the superb mannerisms and arm work from Lyger makes this match, although Sasuke's perfect timing of his flashy comeback doesn't really hurt. It's slightly rough in places, but it's still superb.

 

The Kaientai vs. Sekigun 10-man tag, These Days 1996 - Just a perfect spot fest, with all the great Kaientai team spots and wonderful speed from the faces. If you want a highlight reel match, this is it.

 

Austin vs. Rock, WM X-7 - A good backstory, taking in elements from the real world, great work throughout the match using the unmatched charisma of both wrestlers, good wrestling ability, for the most part, and a massive level of heat. Most of all, however, was the simply brilliant story of Austin's heel turn, and the teasing of a Rock heel turn. The way Austin slowly but surely regressed into his heel persona of yesteryear, using trademark spots from years gone by and several nods to his feud with Bret Hart, was just great and made this match for me.

 

Shinjiro Ohtani vs. Ultimo Dragon, both Super J Cup 95 and J Crown Tournament 96 matches - simply excellent work, great emotion and brilliant execution.

 

There are many other matches, I probly shouldn't have even tried to list them, but there you go.

[Guest BAR]

Agent of Oblivion, the match you are talking about with the crazy tombstone and the moonsault ending is from August 5, 1982.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

PlatypusFool: I'm of the opinion that Ultimo/Ohtani '95 doesn't even belong in the same category as their '96 encounter. '95 is solid, but '96 just smokes it and ranks in the top five for best junior matches of the ninties, in my opinion.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

Fair enough, I can see your opinion, 96 probly does have marginally better work. However, the 96 match I feel suffers very slightly in that it transitions very quickly and wilth little subtlety from the matwork phase of the match, to the finishing run with the big moves. This is something I feel the 95 match has over it, a more sustained level of build, although it is only a minor difference, it allows both to be held in nearly equal regard by me.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

95 has the 3 NO SELL TOMBSTONES of DEATH!!!

 

No comparison. 1996 is a ton better. If only they didn't have that dumb useless matwork.

 

Or figured a way to do it better.

 

But I am not complaining.

 

Tim