A Double Standard

[Guest deadbeater]

Now this is what I see. A little time ago, the WWE women's division was filled with many what I call Stacy candy bars, very good looking women who cannot wrestle a lick. Mathces between them, even when the opponents are the likes of Molly, Jazz and Ivory, deserved one stars or less.

 

Today I see a marked improvement of several women performers, particularly Torrie and especially Trish. However, what I don't understand is why some matches Trish is in, particularly between herself and Molly in Unforgiven, are still getting one star from some people? The matches are going in a faster, crispier rate, almost as fast as cruiserweights (albeit they are ordered to slow down as well). Much fewer moves are botched, and many more are well executed.

 

The problem I see is that you guys hate the booking. Okay, I agree: I don't like the two to six minute limits they impose on women matches in the WWE. However, I think it is quite unfair to compare them relative directly to the one-hour epics and half-hour novels delivered by joshi puroresu in 1991-1998. The leagues have their own shows, and are not hampered by male egos sharing he same card with them. As a result, these were some of the best most inspiring matches ever in any league, male or female. It is very highly unlikely that the WWE, especially with the currently large roster, will do any match that length, especially one-hour. and they especially won't have the women's matches upstage anyone else on the same card, including HHH.

 

Now I know that nobody likes to rate a match four-five stars if the match was 4-6 minutes long. So I have here are some questions: If a four-minute match is rated one and one-half stars, does that mean that if the workrate be the same but the match is lengenthed to twelve minutes, would that same match be rated 4 1/2 stars?

 

Second: Also, why penalize the women for having to condense their matches according to teh booking? It creates a vicious cycle. The matches being too short and the booking and angles being very poor leads to fan disinterest, which in turn leads the WWE to think that the fans don't care about women's wrestling in the US, which leads to these bra and panty matches and that columus from Cilla at wwe.com (grrr), which leads to even poorer booking and angles for the women.

 

Third: if Molly and Trish were replaced with Kaoro Inoue and Minami Toyota, and they did the same moves and given the same amount of time, would you rate teh same match 1 1/2* too? Conversely, if by roster depletion and HHH getting killed ( I hope) the WWE gets very desparate and gives Molly and Trish one hour, and the two reward that decidion by performing in the same workrate throughout the whole match as they did in Unforgiven, with a hot finish, would that match be given 5 stars?

 

Finally: what if the women in the WWE decide to for their own shows with separate cards, and they do the twenty-thirty matches in that contest, and they are determined to have the matches be performed in high quality? Will you support them then?

 

Please, don't let the WWE condition you to totally hate the women performing their butts off, please.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

A question:

 

Have you ever seen any Joshi in your entire life? No offense, but it sounds like you have no idea. If so, you really have no business trying to comare something that you know nothing about.

 

I'm all for educating others, but don't waste people's time. I mean, Kaoro Inoue? What were you thinking?

[Guest deadbeater]

Sorry, I meant Kyoko Inoue.

 

Typed this near Buffy season premiere.

[Guest Jubuki]

I got lost around 'faster, crispier rate'.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

You still haven't answered my question. Then again, I think I already know the answer.

 

And, as if anyone had to say it, the women of the WWE are nothing special, and no one, save Miyuki Fujii and maybe Saya Endo, deserves to be compared to them. They serve their purpose (??) of giving the fans bathroom brakes and horny 13 year-olds a chance to wack off, but otherwise, I can't see why you thought this issue even warranted its own topic.

[Guest wolverine]

Let's not forget about Mika Nishio. Goddamn does she suck.

[Guest Goodear]

I'm not a joshi fan or anything but...

 

Now this is what I see. A little time ago, the WWE women's division was filled with many what I call Stacy candy bars, very good looking women who cannot wrestle a lick. Matches between them, even when the opponents are the likes of Molly, Jazz and Ivory, deserved one stars or less.

 

Yes well, up until something like two weeks ago, WWE had fallen right back into the realm of pillow fights and mud baths to decide the title. Giving title matches to Terri and Stacy aren't going to lend themselves to improving the state of the WWE women's wrestling scene.

 

Today I see a marked improvement of several women performers, particularly Torrie and especially Trish. However, what I don't understand is why some matches Trish is in, particularly between herself and Molly in Unforgiven, are still getting one star from some people? The matches are going in a faster, crispier rate, almost as fast as cruiserweights (albeit they are ordered to slow down as well). Much fewer moves are botched, and many more are well executed.

 

While I will confess that I didn't see the Unforgiven match, I have seen Trish, Molly, and Torrie wrestle. And they are not anywhere near the level of a Tajiri, Hurricane, or Rey Mysterio. While the women generally hit one or two spots with some good to decent execution, their fundamentals aren't up to snuff. Watch any one of the women throw a clothesline, and you'll see what I mean.

 

The only problem I see is that you guys hate the booking. Okay, I agree: I don't like the two-six minute limits they impose on women matches in the WWE. However, I think it is quite unfair to compare them directly to the one-hour epics and half-hour novels delivered by All-Japan in 1991-1998. It is very highly unlikely that the WWE, especially with the currently large roster, will do any match that length, especially one-hour.

 

Fair enough, but the best a 5 minute match is ever going to reach is like **1/2 stars and thats when you're in 1-2-3 Kid/Owen Hart territory. And quite frankly, WWE women wrestlers are not on that level... so no matter what they are going to be, at best, ** given the time restrictions.

 

Now I know that nobody likes to rate matches five stars if it's 4-6 minutes long. So I have here are some questions: If a four-minute match is rated one and one-half stars, does that mean that if the workrate be the same but the match is lengenthed to twelve minutes, would that same match be rated 4 1/2 stars?

 

Not really, it all depends. Sometimes you can tell that wrestlers just aren't built to go 15 minutes (like say, Lex Luger) and giving them more time beyond a certain point would actually worsen the product . Other workers, like Ricky Steamboat, basically only thrive when they have at least 15 minutes to work in all their little nuances. Plus, you should be doing different things in the fifteenth minute of a match as opposed to the fifth. So you really can't say how someone is going to react to a 15 minute match until they actually have one.

 

Second: Also, why penalize the women for having to condense their matches according to the booking? It creates a vicious cycle. The matches are too short and the booking and angles being poor leads to fan disinterest, which in turn leads the WWE to think that the fans don't care about women's wrestling in the US, which leads to these bra and panty matches and that colums from Cilla at wwe.com, which leads to even poorer booking and angles for the women. [/qoute]

 

Because we don't control the product, and can only react and judge what we actually see. Sure, Undertaker and Brock could have had a really kick ass match at Unforgiven (OR NOT!!!) with Taker breaking out his no hands placha and Brock doing Shooting Star Presses all over the place. But that didn't happen.

 

Third: if Molly and Trish were replaced with Kaoro Inoue and Minami Toyota, and they did the same moves and given the same amount of time, would you rate teh same match 1 1/2* too? Conversely, if by roster depletion and HHH getting killed ( I hope) the WWE gets very desparate and gives Molly and Trish one hour, and the two reward that decidion by performing in the same workrate throughout the whole match as they did in Unforgiven, with a hot finish, would that match be given 5 stars?

 

Well, thats actually not a bad point overall as some match raters will pop up the big snowflakes for any match certain guys (like Benoit or Eddie) and drop them for others. But the chances of Trish and Molly putting on a hour long classic is dubious at best.

 

Please, don't let the WWE condition you successfully to hate the women performing their butts off, please.

 

I'm all about the love.

[Guest Jubuki]

Fujii's an OK worker. Get something more recent than 2000, fer Christ's sake.

[Guest deadbeater]

I have watched joshi from time to time. I even have a six-hour tape featuring the best matches. I have not though seen one in the last couple of years (I will go back into it, I promise!!!).

 

Can't see why, Ricky? All Japan and All Japan Women 1986-1996 (Jaguar to Aja to Toyota) is regarded as the all-time golden age of wrestling. Almost everything America and the rest of the world offers is considered pale in comparison. The thing is that no matter how improved the WWE women get, there is a mindset that since it is unlikely that they will attain the level of All-Japan ca. 1992-1996, that they must be disregarded entirely. I don't think that is right..

[Guest Jubuki]

No, they're disregarded because they suck. Wouldn't need a better women's product to prove that.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

I thought Japanese women wrestlers are just lesbians who cannot wrestle and just try to hurt each other.

 

 

I actually enjoy some of the WWE women's matches where the focus is on wrestling and not t&a. The WWE women aren't close to the level of the Japanese women wrestling wise but compared to even some of the male matches in the WWE they are watchable and even good in a company whose focus is sports entertainment. They may not get their proper do by reviewers but it's partially because the women aren't given respect, they are either involved in t&a or they bring up super-green wrestlers like Gayda to embarass the division. Time constrictions are going to lower the overall rating of a match but the improvements in the likes of Trish and the decent wrestlers like Victoria and Molly make the division watchable.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

I personally enjoy the work of Trish and Molly at the moment, I think they are making a damn good effort to improve the quality of their work, their execution of moves has improved ten fold recently and they are having entertaining matches on a regular basis.

 

However, this is all they can do. It's all very well performing moves well, but when you don't know how to place the moves correctly, pace the match or build things to a finish, you're never going to attain the levels of great joshi matches. They can throw moves, high spots and trademarks at each other for a few minutes, and it's entertaining, but they are never gonna be great matches. If you put Trish vs. Molly in a 20 minute match instead of a 3 minute one (let alone longer), they would not know what to do. They would be likely to blow out all their spots in the first few minutes as they didn't know what else to do, and then be forced to slow down because they can't keep up that sort of pace for a long time. You simply cannot wrestle a long match and make it great without working in a few choice holds or something. In short, they may be able to execute moves, but they cannot convey emotion to any degree, build a lengthy match or keep the crowd interested.

 

Also, whether you like it or not, the cultural differences between the US and Japan will impact the quality of the matches, and that will never change. Japan view women as actual athletes (like they seem to regard all wrestlers), and this view is helped by the existence of some joshi wrestlers who could never be considered eye candy. The USA fans are conditioned to view women in wrestling as pure eye candy, and this will never change until a woman who isn't at all pretty makes a massive impact (and even that probly wouldn't change much). The fans will never take female wrestling seriously in the US, and this will forever impact on the booking and the quality of the matches.

[Guest deadbeater]

This is very interesting, this cultural aspect. It is not as if Japanese culture in gerneral treat women with a whole lot more respect than American culture. And Japanese women's wrestling was spearheaded by American Mildred Burke. Joshi also has its share of T&A, albeit done with a lot more sophistication than the American counterpart, if not with better production.

 

So how is it that women wrestling flourished in Japan and languished in the US? Is it because the Japanese came to regard women athletes in any profession more highly than Americans, that is until very recently? Was it because joshi was very lucky to have a performer and trainer in Jaguar Yokota who demanded excellence in herself and her students, while America does not have such a lightning figure as of yet? Wait a minute: America had such people: Lillian Ellison (Moolah), Sherri Russell (Martel) and Deborah Miceli (Madusa). Where did Jaguar succeed while these three failed? And is it too late for Nora?

[Guest J*ingus]

We have no idea if Molly or Trish could work a longer match, since the WW(F)E would never let them try it in the first place.

[Guest wolverine]

Perhaps you should get yourself a copy of "Gaea Girls" if you want to see what some of them go through.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Fujii's an OK worker. Get something more recent than 2000, fer Christ's sake.

I suppose comparing her to Trish was a bit much...

 

I'd attribute it to wrestling being marketed to men above women in the US. There have always been female fans, but they're usually the exception, not the rule. When you have AJW, an all-women promotion, which marketed heavilly to school girls, they're going to be treated with a certain amount of respect.

 

And yes, I wouldn't need the Aja and Toyota to distinguish the WWE divas as bad. They're bad workers on any scale, let alone the Zenjo scale.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

After watching Dreamslam, Toyota/Yamada vs. Kansai/Ozaki 11/26/92 and 12/6/93 I am amazed at the amount of moves and reversals the women do. They have such expansive arsenals and such ways of stringing moves together that it must have took a ton of training to get so good. The WWE women's movesets have been shown to be very limited so far, a long match would expose that. I doubt they would be able to bust out new moves out of nowhere and do it in a convincing way.

 

One of the things that sets the Japanese women wrestlers apart is the beatings they endure, I continuosly cringed at the stiff kicks and various bumps those women were taking. To wrestle in such high impact matches with little muscle mass to cushion their bodies I'm suprised they can keep going like they do. Would the American female wrestlers be willing endure severe beatings on a consistent basis? Trish seemed to get into the business to be a star rather than for a love of wrestling, would the American women have the heart to put themselves through such punishment for pro wrestling? Molly seems like she does love pro wrestling but I don't know if her body is trained to take the punishment many Japanese women go through.

 

It must have something to do with the culture because the Japanese seem much more open to sacrifcing their health to fulfill their desire. Sort of like some Samurai philosophy. American wrestlers must sacrifice but the Japanese go much further in showing their dedication through fighting spirit to achieve honor.

 

WWE and Japanese women's wrestling are very different, implants go along way here, heart and ability goes along way there. Judging them on the same basis leads to invalid reults.

 

Here's an interesting read:

Gaea Girls

 

 

They both rule in my book.

 

[Guest Jubuki]

Interesting...and poorly informed. "Highly profitable form of entertainment" - yeah, every once in a while. Not over the long haul. The "obsessive take" bit about the links he provided was a riot, too.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

If the wwe really wants to get the women over, let 'em do a 10 minute bloody brawl. Have Jazz and Molly go out there and potato the shit out of each other for a few. almost all men have an intrinsic fascination with cat fights, and the problem is, in the WWE, they're too busy doing sloppy suplexes and not really fighting. Let 'em wail on each other, it'd get over.

 

As far as the american women working 20-30 minute matches, well, I'd rather let Angle/Benoit go 20+ instead.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

Agent of Oblivion Posted on Sep 26 2002, 07:37 AM

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If the wwe really wants to get the women over, let 'em do a 10 minute bloody brawl. Have Jazz and Molly go out there and potato the shit out of each other for a few. almost all men have an intrinsic fascination with cat fights, and the problem is, in the WWE, they're too busy doing sloppy suplexes and not really fighting. Let 'em wail on each other, it'd get over.

 

As far as the american women working 20-30 minute matches, well, I'd rather let Angle/Benoit go 20+ instead.

 

 

The bloody brawls would only work if the wrestlers were willing to risk having their pretty faces destroyed in the process. They would also have to bring the intensity, I can't take the WWE's women's division seriously because it isn't treated seriously. In Japan the women bring the emotion and hatred at such a high level, they wrestle like they actually want to destroy their opponent. In the WWE the women come to the ring smiling and seem more intested in strutting their stuff than getting the matches over as fights. I remember when Lita got busted open and some on the net were disturbed by it, how would most wrestling fans react to watching Trish bleeding everywhere like I just saw Dynamite Kansai doing in a 3/17/95 match? There is no way WWE women's wrestling will ever rival Joshi Puroresu because the goals are different. Women in the WWE are there to attract teenage boys for the most part, the WWE doesn't live and die on the women's wrestling product. Female divisions have never been successful as far as I know, they are usually around a few months then go away. Maybe it was because of the way they were handled but I doubt the effort will be put into and women's division to give it some credibility in the future.

 

BTW did anyone watch the female promotion that was around last year? Did they stress actual wrestling or T&A and characters? I remember watching GLOW as a kid, was it like that or was it taken more seriously?

 

How was Madusa as a wrestler in her prime? I heard she wrestled in Japan and was overwhelmed and couldn't keep up.

 

How was Hokotu taken by the fans when she was in WCW? Did she get treated with respect and get a good reaction? Did she have to hold back against her competition? Did she have any memorable matches while in WCW?

[Guest wolverine]

Speaking of Dynamite Kansai, keep an eye out for the 8/30/95 match against Aja Kong. Outstanding match - smartly worked and very focused. Aja does some of the best selling I've ever seen here. After rewatching both this and the main event, I've switched to this match being my favorite of the night. It's probably the 2nd best women's singles match of 1995 behind Aja vs. Toyota 6/27.

[Guest J*ingus]

In Japan the women bring the emotion and hatred at such a high level, they wrestle like they actually want to destroy their opponent. In the WWE the women come to the ring smiling and seem more intested in strutting their stuff than getting the matches over as fights.

That's one reason I like Molly and Trish's matches together, because they do a really good job of conveying that hate.

 

BTW did anyone watch the female promotion that was around last year? Did they stress actual wrestling or T&A and characters? I remember watching GLOW as a kid, was it like that or was it taken more seriously?

 

What, you mean WOW? It was done by one of the same guys who did GLOW, it was filled with ridiculous stereotypical one-note characters (i.e., all the black wrestlers were either gang members, basketball players, or jungle savages).

 

How was Hokotu taken by the fans when she was in WCW? Did she get treated with respect and get a good reaction? Did she have to hold back against her competition? Did she have any memorable matches while in WCW?

 

Treated with respect? Good reaction? LMFAO. The fans couldn't have cared less about her.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

wolverine Posted on Sep 26 2002, 12:49 PM

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Speaking of Dynamite Kansai, keep an eye out for the 8/30/95 match against Aja Kong. Outstanding match - smartly worked and very focused. Aja does some of the best selling I've ever seen here. After rewatching both this and the main event, I've switched to this match being my favorite of the night. It's probably the 2nd best women's singles match of 1995 behind Aja vs. Toyota 6/27.

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I'll be watching Kong/Kansai 8/30 match in the next few days. I will have to order the 6/27 match as well as other joshi matches that I have heard so many great things about.

 

 

Jingus Posted on Sep 26 2002, 01:30 PM

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QUOTE (RollingChop @ Sep 26 2002, 02:06 PM)

In Japan the women bring the emotion and hatred at such a high level, they wrestle like they actually want to destroy their opponent. In the WWE the women come to the ring smiling and seem more intested in strutting their stuff than getting the matches over as fights.

 

That's one reason I like Molly and Trish's matches together, because they do a really good job of conveying that hate.

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I think Molly/Trish convey a dislike and a wanting to win but not the hatred and even bloodthirst I'm looking for. For one thing I'd prefer they start vocalizing more, screaming adds alot to the intensity and I don't feel they do that enough.

 

 

QUOTE

How was Hokotu taken by the fans when she was in WCW? Did she get treated with respect and get a good reaction? Did she have to hold back against her competition? Did she have any memorable matches while in WCW?

 

 

Treated with respect? Good reaction? LMFAO. The fans couldn't have cared less about her.

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What was the reason behind that IYO, did WCW push her and the division wrong? She's obviously was a great wrestler and had that aura I would think people couldn't deny. I would think it must have been the fault of management and not her.

[Guest deadbeater]

Problem was Hokuto didn't do the fan interaction needed to generate heat. She would beat down Madusa, but she didn't do anything else to humiliate her, like strike a Madusa pose or strut or something.

 

I agree, the women should not suffer nor deliver punishment in silence. Not even Chris Benoit is silent anymore. They MUST yell to sell.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

What reason did fans in WCW have to care about women's wrestling to begin with? Similiar to how the WWF tried to push a women's division with Medusa and Bull Nakano alone, WCW thought they could pull it off the ubber-washed-up Medusa and out-there Hokuto. No one cared about it.

[Guest deadbeater]

Not care about it Ricky?? The mark magazine Pro Wrestling Illustrated had the Madusa-Nakano Summerslam match #4 match of the year. There was some interest in the division, which the WWF promptly ruined by having Monster Ripper turn into Bertha Faye.

[Guest Jubuki]

You're quoting PWI as a source? Are you really this vapid, or are you doing this on purpose?

[Guest deadbeater]

Bill Apter's Mark magazines almost never cover women at all unless they are valets to the editor's favorites. That year they did the covered the Bull-Madsusa feud in passing, yet the fans who bothered to vote voted for it on the year-end lists. And the fans who write to them are sometimes smarter than the kayfabe editors.

 

Yes Jubuki, I did this on purpose. And no, I don't regret it. It was the fans, not the kayfabe editors, who voted. There is a good audience for good women's wrestling in the States. The WWE completely forgot about that during the Molly-Trish feud (now it seemed to recover from the amnesia). It seems also that they succeeded in making some people forget that they want good matches too.

[Guest Grenouille]

I always thought that the year end awards were kayfabed, just like the rest of the PWI?

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Yes, I'm pretty sure everything is worked, and even if the figuers were real, how many fans actually read PWI? It's not a credible source any way you slice it.

 

And not that it really matters, but if you read the post, it's pretty obvious that I was talking about Hokuto when I said that.