Curious: At just what point did the then-WWF go

[Guest AndrewTS]

I don't recall exactly, but wasn't it a short time before the InVasion? It there a particular point that we can look back at and kinda pinpoint the peak and beginning of decline?

 

I know the decline has been steady, but hard to remember what started it.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Austin turned heel...and HHH did not

 

Mania 17 was huge.

 

Austin turned heel...which initially was very luke warm...and the next night they could have had a huge program with HHH being more over as a face then he could have ever dreamed...we-re talking Rock big here.

 

But he stayed heel and created the 2 man powertrip.

 

HHH & Austin vs. Taker & Kane sent ratings on a downward slope fast and hard.

[Guest papacita]

Things started to go wrong around Wrestlemania X7 when Austin turned, and although Austin's a great heel, his turn, coupled with Rock's departure, turned off a lot of casual fans. Vince went into a panic when ratings began to drop, and started hot-shotting angles, making a bad situation worse, cuz the WWF TV wasn't all that bad at the time.

[Guest BoboBrazil]

The decline started mid 2000. It started getting really ugly once WCW died.

[Guest Rob Edwards]

HHH not turning face twice had huge impacts at different points. Firstly during the Angle feud in 2000 and secondly as said above after WMX7

[Guest AndrewTS]

Ahhh...yes. Fans didn't want to boo Austin...then they briefly turned him face again--then Austin joined the Alliance and they proceeded to kiss his ass from then on.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Here's some of my favorite ratings EVER:

 

Prior To Mania 17: The Raw ratings were in the high 4/low 5 range.

 

Post MAnia...RAW drew a big 5.6 rating for the night after, then continued in the 5's for the rest of April (except for the last week....better known as the week after the Backlash ppv)

 

Then the WWE decides to continue the Taker/Kane push for whatever reason and here are the ratings that followed for the next weeks:

 

4.55

4.5

4.2

4.2

4.3

4.1

 

At this poit the Benoit/Jericho push ended and the Invsion popped ratings up for a while.

 

Then we all know how that went.

 

Basically...Taker and Kane feud continuing was a bad idea...and Benoit/Jericho didn't add to ratings...but they did stop the free fall

[Guest AndrewTS]

Here's some of my favorite ratings EVER:

 

Prior To Mania 17: The Raw ratings were in the high 4/low 5 range.

 

Post MAnia...RAW drew a big 5.6 rating for the night after, then continued in the 5's for the rest of April (except for the last week....better known as the week after the Backlash ppv)

 

Then the WWE decides to continue the Taker/Kane push for whatever reason and here are the ratings that followed for the next weeks:

 

4.55

4.5

4.2

4.2

4.3

4.1

 

At this poit the Benoit/Jericho push ended and the Invsion popped ratings up for a while.

 

Then we all know how that went.

 

Basically...Taker and Kane feud continuing was a bad idea...and Benoit/Jericho didn't add to ratings...but they did stop the free fall

Ouch...that's pretty hard to deny. I know I myself was tuning out whenever Taker and Kane were on the screen. However, unfortunately Benoit got injured not long after HHH tore his quad, so I wonder if things would have been much different if he hadn't gotten injured...

 

Naw...I doubt that the push Benoit and Jericho were getting would have lasted. However, shitty timing on the Benoit injury.

 

Anyone remember what other angles they were running at the time? I'm thinking they were doing the Vince-Linda divorce angle around that time, if I'm not mistaken. Because they'd do it for a long time and occasionally remind us of it.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

The Hardys were getting a semi push just after MAnia to try and solidify Austin as a heel.

 

Angle and Shane started up before KOTR.

 

Edge was getting pushed and Christian was starting to resent it.

 

The divorce angle was starting to roll.

 

Everything else was business as usual.

[Guest lowavenue]

2 Main mistakes:

 

1. Rikishi being named the one who ran over Steve Austin was a huge anti-climax.

 

2. Not turning HHH face that Raw after Wrestlemania 17.

 

Those were the 2 problems.

[Guest snowfan]

Ahhh...yes. Fans didn't want to boo Austin...then they briefly turned him face again--then Austin joined the Alliance and they proceeded to kiss his ass from then on.

Yup. Nothing like making a pointless turn to kill a cycle.

[Guest AndrewTS]

2 Main mistakes:

 

1. Rikishi being named the one who ran over Steve Austin was a huge anti-climax.

 

2. Not turning HHH face that Raw after Wrestlemania 17.

 

Those were the 2 problems.

I seem to recall the driver angle resolved much earlier than that. And while Rikishi was a disappointment, it didn't really affect the slide that ratings and fan interest took after X7.

 

Thanks for the angle recap bps. And the divorce angle was pretty boring and stupid, and stuff like the "Vince keeping Linda doped up in the nursing home" and Trish's tryst with Vince McMahon--complete with Trish barking like a dog, can also recieve part of the blame. Who in the HELL wants to see Vince making out with a young woman? Besides Vince?

 

Although, they had plenty of chances to redeem themselves even after the InVasion angle. But instead...we got the Kiss My Ass Club.

[Guest DJ Jeff]

It was the Smackdown after Wrestlemania 17 in which the ratings started to fall. Between that Smackdown, and I'll say the RAW after the Survivor Series 2001, was when the WWE wasn't that great. After that, I started to like it again. The InVasion sucked big time, and I'm glad they blew that off.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

InVasion may have sucked big time, but I'd rather be watching that than what they're putting on now. I always enjoyed most of what came out of that time period. I knew the invasion sucked, but there was some good action. Plus Heyman was on commentary instead of Lawler.

[Guest Smell the ratings!!!]

I have to agree with lowavenue. I know that was all wrapped up long before Wrestlemania, but I really think that dirver angle could have been huge. Or even if they let Rikishi stick with the "did it fo' da people" thing.

 

Alas, it was just another HHH master plan.

 

Also, and I don't remember when this was, but Austin was attacked by a mystery assaliant about the same time HHh was becoming super-face fighting with Angle over Stephanie. Unfortunatly, that was yet another master plan, and HHH went from over face to grudginly accepted heel.

 

But as usual, bps knows what's up. That Austin/HHH vs. Kane/Taker was just the pits. Especially coming off the heels of Austin/HHH vs. Hardys. Probably didn't help that Austin was HHH's bitch.

 

 

EDIT: My spelling is really hideous. I messed up so many I didn't even bother fixing them.

[Guest AndrewTS]

InVasion may have sucked big time, but I'd rather be watching that than what they're putting on now. I always enjoyed most of what came out of that time period. I knew the invasion sucked, but there was some good action. Plus Heyman was on commentary instead of Lawler.

The InVasion sucked because the WCW guys were treated as jobbers. It produced many mark out moments for me, but when the only Alliance guys who got pushed were ALREADY WWF GUYS IN THE FIRST PLACE (or had been from WCW or ECW before but were established WWF guys by then) and the rest were jobbed constantly and made to look like complete bitches it killed fan interest.

 

Need we mention the Taker/Kane squashing of Palumbo and O'Haire? Or the unforgettable "Lets see who sucks more" match with Kronic vs. Taker and Kane.

 

Vince could not grasp the concept that THEY ALL WORKED FOR HIM! So if midcard WWF guy doesn't want to job to WCW lower-midcard guy, should have been TOUGH! And Rock's fued with Booker T ruined his credibility for well over a year, and he still is only upper-midcard, and seems to not be moving up at all. Maybe the botched table spot and the match with Bagwell were seen as reasons to punish him. Of course, WHO THE FUCK PUTS SOMEONE IN THE RING WITH BAGWELL AND EXPECTS A GOOD MATCH!? Yeesh...still, so many things done wrong...

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

"Need we mention the Taker/Kane squashing of Palumbo and O'Haire? Or the unforgettable "Lets see who sucks more" match with Kronic vs. Taker and Kane. "

 

I'm still trying to figure out who wins that one.

 

 

Aside from the burials...the alliance angle did bring a contract to RVD (who the WWE had no interest in at all until he became useful for an ECW storyline) so I can't complain.

 

Hell...he's one of the few things that interests me now...as does Booker T.

 

So it wasn't all bad.

[Guest AndrewTS]

I have to agree with lowavenue. I know that was all wrapped up long before Wrestlemania, but I really think that dirver angle could have been huge. Or even if they let Rikishi stick with the "did it fo' da people" thing.

 

Alas, it was just another HHH master plan.

 

Also, and I don't remember when this was, but Austin was attacked by a mystery assaliant about the same time HHh was becoming super-face fighting with Angle over Stephanie. Unfortunatly, that was yet another master plan, and HHH went from over face to grudginly accepted heel.

 

But as usual, bps knows what's up. That Austin/HHH vs. Kane/Taker was just the pits. Especially coming off the heels of Austin/HHH vs. Hardys. Probably didn't help that Austin was HHH's bitch.

 

 

EDIT: My spelling is really hideous. I messed up so many I didn't even bother fixing them.

True, but we're looking at what sunk them--not blown big opportunities. There were so many great choices for that angle, but they gave us Rikishi. Rikishi was just a lousy heel, especially when you consider it's his shameless fat-man-dancing ass-in-face schtick that got him over in the first place.

 

However, HHH stole the thunder from that...and..

 

Hmm, funny how so many of these problems can be traced back to HHH and Taker...just an observation.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

Oh I agree totally. I guess I just mostly miss the days of Heyman on commentary.

[Guest AndrewTS]

Buffybeast won't like me saying it, but maybe one of the myriad problems at that time was that not long before the InVasion, they put their NUMBER TWO WWF BELT ON ALBERT!

 

Regardless of anyone here's stance on Albert, he was not at all over, and only got his push based on being a favorite of Jim Ross.

[Guest lowavenue]

I know Rikishi being found out as the driver had nothing to do with Wrestlemania, cause he was shoved as a tag-team with Haku about 3 months later which killed his character. It was just a sign that WWF wasn't perfect, as 2000 was a great year.

 

HHH could have been a really over face if he went against Austin after Wrestlemania 7. Far more over than his lousy face run this year.

[Guest geniusMoment]

Before business goes down it takes months of unhappiness. People who say it went down after mania are right but it was already on a downward slope.

From summerslam 99 till Foley became Cactus Jack the storylines sucked and the ratings started to fall from their peak period.

The Cactus-Hunter feud was good but was followed up by the horrible McMahon's at wrestlemania storyline and business began to drop. During the summer they spent the majority of their time hyping the Hunter-Angle-Steph storyline that had the potential to be good but after Summerslam 2000 they dropped it which pissed off the fans and business fell again. I personally haven't enjoyed the wwe since summerslam 2000, since steph started booking, and business continues to fall at wcw levels

[Guest Brian]

During the InVasion angle people seem to forget the mid-card was pretty shot. Benoit was injured, Jericho wasunreliable, and Angle was playing up. The mid-card was just a bunch of guys with hardly anything resembling a strong storyline or character.

 

Ratings, buyrates, and attndance were all stronger in 2000 compared to 1999, or so somone said when they put up numbers here from the WWE financial statement/corporate stockholder's report.

[Guest nikowwf]

HHH was getting over on too many people and there was not elevation. Still, everything was hot and ok through Wrestlemania 17.

 

Then the ill fated Austin turn and HHH dominating that turned off a lot of people. KOTR that year killed both Benoit and Jericho (Austin helped keep things up, but he also helped the future look worse as he never elevated anyone.) Then Invasion came, and the fans came back. The Austin turn when everyone really wanted to cheer him against WCW was a real killer.

 

Since then, its been RESTART, oops didnt work, RESTART, oops didnt work, RESTART with each one pushing them a little further down when it failed.

 

Latest was two new commisioners and SUMMERSLAM which seemingly is gone as the new people getting pushed and the good wrestling of Summerslam led to the "We are all pissed off" reaction to Unforgiven.

 

And the bar continues to go lower....

 

Niko

[Guest Trivia247]

the Invasion is the one obvious point of Departure. Because they screwed the Invasion angle royally and when they tried to recover it by bringing in the ECW faction, they screwed it again. was loads o sac o crap.

[Guest nikowwf]

When the WWE has hot draws, they can do this stupid sh*t and no one cares. If Brock was a super hot draw, no one would care that Bubba vs. HHH was the other main event on the PPV.

 

Since he's not, this kind of selfish booking is magnified and really alienates the fans.

 

Niko

[Guest Mad Dog]

The Invasion was when things started to go horribly wrong.

 

It was doing ok for awhile until everyone realized that the Invasion guys couldn't buy a win and then all the real WCW guys faded away.

 

I think the big thing was politics could be seen in the product starting about then. Austin, Taker and several other guys refused to give any credibility to any of the WCW guys. The squashings of DDP, O'Haire and Palumbo. And they had the Rock make Booker T look like a chump.

 

Plus they insulted the fans intelligence once too many times. No one cared once the Alliance became invested with a bunch of midcard WWE chumps who hadn't been in WCW or ECW in years.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Part of the reason why WCW died was because a)They didn't make good on their promises and b)They didn't elevate New Stars

 

The Mystery Driver - Austin/HHH feud was the beginning of the end for the Wwf. It did both of those things at once.

 

From there, Austin turning heel at WM which opened a sort-of pandoras box that let to HHH getting injured and the Invasion angle being hot-shotted, and that led to Ric Flair coming in and that led to the split and the NWO enforced the downfall first created with the mystery driver disappointment.

[Guest Mad Dog]

The Invasion was way too rushed. I mean think if they would've waited just a year.

 

They would've had Hogan, Hall, Nash, Flair, Mysterio and possibly had some incentive for Goldberg and Steiner to come aboard.

 

There the Invasion is about 200 times better with just those names.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

But the question still comes up is would Vince let even the biggest WCW names look good at the expense of his WWE talent???