Curious: At just what point did the then-WWF go

[Guest Brian]

Of course not. Because even when Vince put the McMahons and Austin at the front line, all he was basically doing was conceding that WCW couldn't do it on their own.

[Guest geniusMoment]

Ratings were not stronger in 2000 compared to 1999 and the financial information that has been discussed is released through wwe the corporation. Anyone who knows anything about corporate accounting will tell you a company can at will twist around financial numbers to make their company appear in a favorable light. It is in a companies best interest to make it appear they are gaining more and more business so they take outside cash flow and incorporate it into previously existing accounts making it appear their net profit was greater. This is why baseball players don't believe the owners.

[Guest Mad Dog]

True.

 

He already did a similar thing to the nWo.

 

Well if he wanted to spend all that money just to bury an imaginary WCW then more power to him.

[Guest Brian]

No, he didn't want to spend the money to bury WCW. He wnated to run it, stronger than ever, to prove everyone was wrong and make himself the greatest businessman ever. But he couldn't do it.

[Guest lowavenue]

Invasion was created so Vince could have Rock Vs Austin contesting at the end of Survivor Series to see which faction survives. It was WWF Vs WWF at the end of the day.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

It wouldn't suprise me if he did. Maybe that's why he didn't sign the Big WCW names cause just wanted enough so he could dance on WCW's grave a little more.

[Guest Brian]

No, he wanted to create new stars originally and play WCW off, make the money and have the tape collection.

 

Rock vs. Austin was originally slated for SummerSlam.

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

I'm still bitter..because Austin then was getting about as much TV time as HHH has been now..and on BOTH shows. Ugh.

 

Did I mention the "Austin turns face for a night so he can take out the ENTIRE ALLIANCE by himself" bit?

 

Then you have Kurt Angle being Austin lite instead of himself..

 

No real new people pushed. I think that's what killed them most. It boiled down to WWF guys vs WWF guys..and NONE of the guys headlining (except Angle) needed elevated. It was their one great oppertunity to elevate a crop of new talent, and they blew it. Taker, Austin, Rock, and HHH were all over the place in 2001. ('cept post-injury HHH).

 

It's my belief that people want to see something new..something good..and when they didn't get it, they tuned out.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

"It's my belief that people want to see something new..something good..and when they didn't get it, they tuned out."

 

 

I would say the fact that an intended to be throw away part of the alliance angle got more over as a face then any of the WWE faces (including Rock...hard to fathom I know...but the evidence exists who the fans were behind...plus RVD was much more over back then) proves this point.

 

They wanted something different.

 

Even WWE realized it well after the fact, when RVD got a huge push at the end of the alliance angle.

 

But then they pushed him back down and have gone back and forth so long that people don't care as much about him today.

 

Still...he remains more over than most.

[Guest Olympic Slam]

The Austin heel turn opened the flood gates and the water started to rush towards us.........

 

Booker T vs. Buff at the Tacoma Dome changed the Invasion Angle and the WWF was knee deep in water.........

 

Austin turns heel once again and joins the Alliance, the WWF and the wrestling world was sunk..........

[Guest creativename]

Ratings were not stronger in 2000 compared to 1999 and the financial information that has been discussed is released through wwe the corporation.  Anyone who knows anything about corporate accounting will tell you a company can at will twist around financial numbers to make their company appear in a favorable light.  It is in a companies best interest to make it appear they are gaining more and more business so they take outside cash flow and incorporate it into previously existing accounts making it appear their net profit was greater.  This is why baseball players don't believe the owners.

I seriously hope you're joking.

 

The WWE ratings/etc. numbers are just plain numbers. WWE is not Enron, where they have a myriad of derivatives transactions and shady partnerships off the balance-sheet. WWE is as nuts-and-bolts as it gets. They can fuck around with the "other expenses" section, but all the buyrate, rating, and attendance numbers are accurate down to the last decimal point.

 

2000 > 1999 in all facets of the business for the WWE. It is the easiest thing in the world to look up.

[Guest Super Pissed Smark]

There were two things that changed the fortunes of the WWF, but they weren't any storylines or onscreen happenings.

 

1) That writer, you know the one, the head writer who nobody remembers his name, who never made himself a recurring onscreen character and put himself over all the talent, who came after the brilliance of Vince Russo and before the genius of Stephanie McMahon, the one who used to write out the plotlines on cue cards and tack them to a board so he could keep track of everything, like an actual professional screenwriter would do, he left.

 

2) The Greatest Wrestler of All Time started fucking Stephanie McMahon, affording himself more power over the storylines and his role in them than anyone who isn't a McMahon.

 

And that was pretty much all it took to get us from there to here. Business did remain strong for a while after number one, but the plotlines finally ran out, and Steph and Vince had to create new ones. Everybody else has already posted the "best" of those in this thread. Yikes. And I think everyone on the board is familiar with number two. No, number two on my list, not the WWE's current product.

[Guest papacita]

Before business goes down it takes months of unhappiness. People who say it went down after mania are right but it was already on a downward slope.

From summerslam 99 till Foley became Cactus Jack the storylines sucked and the ratings started to fall from their peak period.

 

I'll agree with this from a creative standpoint, because the WWF has been constantly pissing me off since they put the title on Foley at SummerSlam 99 (I like Foley and I hate HHH just as much as anyone, but there's NO WAY HHH shouldn't have gone over Austin that night...or even Foley. That seriously hurt his first 2 title reigns, IMO), but business-wise, WWF in 2000 was much stronger than in 99.

 

If I had to choose a pre-2001 turning point for the WWF, I'd say the addition of Smackdown, because while it did bring in new casual fans, it overexposed the product. It was only a matter of time before people just started getting bored with wrestling.

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

I don't so much agree with the addition of Smackdown as a downer..

 

..but..it's the fact that it's a showcase for the SAME talent that we've been seeing for years..instead of using the valuable TV time to make/showcase new talent..like it should be.

[Guest Mad Dog]

You could make a case that business started to decline as the push from hell hit it's peak.

 

Honestly though I'd say when Steph got her hands on the book is when it all went to hell. The first PPV she did was Survivor Series 2000 and you could see the lack in logic from that point on.

[Guest papacita]

I don't so much agree with the addition of Smackdown as a downer..

 

..but..it's the fact that it's a showcase for the SAME talent that we've been seeing for years..instead of using the valuable TV time to make/showcase new talent..like it should be.

I can agree with that. Had they used Smackdown to get some of the newer guys over, it might not have been a problem, but basically what they were doing is promoting 2 Raws a week, the same talent, the same storylines, a lot of times the same matches, and after a while it just got boring. I know a few people who actually stopped watching after Smackdown was added, because it took away from the uniqueness of Raw.

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

In fact..I'd go as far as to say it's not -wrestling- that's overexposed..it's the talent.

 

Same guys are still getting loads of airtime: HHH, Taker.

 

Guys people don't particularly want to see get the push from hell: Brock.

 

Inferior wrestlers get put over at the expense of more popular or better ones: Edge over Angle, Triple H over Jericho and RVD, Taker over (insert list of many names here).

 

hmm..

[Guest Zero_Cool]

I would say Unforgiven was the point that things started to go downhill. [Jack Black]Think about IT, man! [/Jack Black]

 

1. RAW moves to TNN the next night, which just wasn't the same.

 

2. The Steph/Kurt/Trips storyline is turned into a jarbled mess full of bloody kisses.

 

3. Instead of us finding out who ran over Austin.........we get Steve Blackman.

 

Those two storylines being fudged up may have started the downward spiral that brings us to today.

[Guest razazteca]

to me it was the Undertaker refusing to do anything with DDP during the Invasion angle, as DDP had potentcial as a heel, but the PPVs that resulted from the angle with Sara went nowhere.

 

Booker T & Jericho as heels went nowhere, and then there is Chuck Palumbo & (insert WCW partner here) as champions vs WWF tag teams of APA or other Hoss teams

[Guest papacita]

I would say Unforgiven was the point that things started to go downhill. [Jack Black]Think about IT, man! [/Jack Black]

 

1. RAW moves to TNN the next night, which just wasn't the same.

 

2. The Steph/Kurt/Trips storyline is turned into a jarbled mess full of bloody kisses.

 

3. Instead of us finding out who ran over Austin.........we get Steve Blackman.

 

Those two storylines being fudged up may have started the downward spiral that brings us to today.

::sigh:: I'm conflicted on that one, because I went to Unforgiven 2000 and enjoyed the show, but that's a good point. A lot of people I know didn't have TNN at the time they switched networks, and stopped watching as a result.

[Guest AndrewTS]

Part of the reason why WCW died was because a)They didn't make good on their promises and b)They didn't elevate New Stars

 

The Mystery Driver - Austin/HHH feud was the beginning of the end for the Wwf. It did both of those things at once.

 

From there, Austin turning heel at WM which opened a sort-of pandoras box that let to HHH getting injured and the Invasion angle being hot-shotted, and that led to Ric Flair coming in and that led to the split and the NWO enforced the downfall first created with the mystery driver disappointment.

This is precisely why so many people are comparing the WWE now to WCW in its waning days. The big names were still being pushed, and were still drawing--but at the expense of cannibalizing the midcard. After the midcard figuratively--and literally in the case of the WCW 4's departure--there were no solid midcarders--and everything came crashing down onto the shoulders of the jobbers and WCW Power Plant guys. They gave an admirable try, but Russo with complete control, and declining morale, sunk WCW further into the grave. Let's not forget David Arquette as champion. No matter who thought of it, it was a horrible, lousy idea that made WCW look utterly bush league.

 

Yet, those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it...

 

Mad Dog: As Brian said, the original plan was to spin off a new WCW under the hood of the WWF. However, the early reception to the WCW guys and the Bagwell/Booker T match made McMahon change his mind, turn them into another faction, and then planned the planned roster split--which likely would have been a WCW and WWF roster. That never happened.

[Guest converge241]

I agree with the Raw the night after WMX7.

 

Rock was pretty hot, but left to do movies

Fans were waiting for HHH to turn face

The austin turn was hurt by trying to do it in Texas. I think if WM was anywhere else the fans would have reacted better than in Texas.

 

There are tons of other bullet points that you could look at as well, but i think that day was a nexus.

[Guest geniusMoment]

I'm not saying that the wwe is Enron. I'm saying they can take new ventures such as their restaurant and the money they got from the smackdown television show and combine it with previous profits making their per show profit margin seem higher than it was the previous year, when in actuality they just have more streams of profit. This makes the overall product more succesful because they now have more ways that they can collect money but it doesn't make the individual shows in and of themselves more successful. The wwe was drawing mid 6 ratings in 1999 until after summerslam. The ratings eventually went up and hit their highpoint during the 10 man tag featuring the radicals debut as heels and the return of kane at the end of the match. This however was only a couple of week blip as the ratings for the rest of 2000 fell back into the mid 5's.

by the way I know Smackdown started in 1999 but they only accounted it in 1 quarter of their yearly notice to shareholders unlike the 4 that it was in during the 2000 year.

[Guest The Metal Maniac]

I really think that the move from USA to TNN hurt the WWF bad.

 

In addition to the people who simply didn't HAVE TNN, I'm willing to bet that a fair chunk of those 6's (Maybe in the range of half a point to a point - But I could be way off, as neilsens are not my forte) were extremely casual fans. The kind of people who would be flipping around randomly on Monday night, and go "Hey! wrestling's on!"

 

Of course, I have no way of knowing this, but I really wouldn't be suprised.

 

Anyway, you have these people that watch WWF on USA Monday nights, and all of a sudden, the WWF isn't ON USA on Monday nights. Being very casual fans, however, they didn't bother to search for it - they found something else to watch.

 

I'm willing to bet that took a bite out of their ratings...though I have no numbers or facts to back that up...I'm really just guessing.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

The Steph/HHH/Angle Love triangle

 

Steph becoming head writer

 

The misuse of Austin on his intial return. The only time to make the Austin heel turn really work was right after he returned.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

The WWF made more money by going to TNN then they would have earned by the extra ratings point. People still pay too much attention to the TV ratings. There are other factors.

 

The problem I have with Unforgiven or Survivor Series being the turning point is that the period from Armaggeddon to Wrestlemania X-7 was fantastic. No Way Out 2001 & Wrestlemania are two of the greatest PPVs ever, and Royal Rumble was great too. Plus, they bought WCW and all the ECW talent worth having (plus Justin Credible). It had to have been after Wrestlemania X-7. The Taker & Kane push was a bonehead move, but by July the WWF was hot again.

 

Finally we get to what I believe is the turning point, Summerslam 2001. Up until then the Alliance was doing pretty well for itself. At Summerslam, it became apparent that the WWF boys were simply refusing to put over anyone from WCW. Undertaker & Kane crushed O'Haire & Palumbo in the weeks before the show, in what could probably be called the beginning of the fall, but it could have been avoided with a good Alliance showing at Summerslam.

 

At Summerslam, the only Alliance victories were Test (in a 6 man tag that no one cared about), and RVD (in a horrible ladder match with Jeff Hardy over the Hardcore Title). Everyone else lost. The Tag Title match is the worst offender, as it completely killed the careers of Kanyon & DDP, and was one of the worst matches that I have ever seen. Booker T did alright in Main Event, but was humiliated in the coming weeks, and was embarrassed in losses to Rock in a handicap match, and the Undertaker. Paul Heyman is essentially taken out of the storyline to make more room for Stephanie McMahon. All the wrestling was good (with the exception of the Hardcore & Tag Title matches), it was simply a depressing show to watch. Once they killed the Invasion, that was it. The ratings were on a slide that no quick fix could stop.

 

When the NWO was brought in, I gave up all hope of a quick recovery, but Summerslam was what started the current trend of nobody moving up the card.

[Guest lowavenue]

I think Summerslam was a really good show. It was the Invasion PPV that hurt the ratings the most, as it was highly anticipated and hyped, but the PPV was awful with an awful ending in the main event.

[Guest tombstone]

The InVasion started it.

OK the ratings fell with the UT / Kane and benoit / Jericho feuds but if Benoit hadn't blown his neck and HHH his quad then they might have actually given Jericho the WWF title as a face. Leading to a Austin / HHH feud for Summerslam while Jericho holds the belt for a few months.

They could have held off the inVasion for a year and got Nash, Hall, Hogan and Goldberg on board and still signed RVD in time for Summerslam to challenge some guy (probably Edge) for the IC title.

The Edge - Christian thing would have had time to develop without the Alliance getting in the way.

Fast Forward to No Way Out 2002 and a ME with Austin defending the WWF title against the Rumble winner.

The nWo and Goldberg storm the building and Goldberg spears Austin while the WCW roster attacks backstage and ransacks the WWF locker room.

Wrestlemania X - 8 : InVasion in Toronto.

 

WWF Tag Team Titles

Spike & Tazz © vs. The Outsiders

 

Kurt Angle vs.

 

Triple H vs. Booker

 

The Rock vs. Hulk Hogan

 

WWF Title

Stone Cold Steve Austin © vs. Goldberg

 

etc.

Bischoff and Flair lead the WCW faction and on RAW announce that they have bought up 50% of WWE shares. They reinstate WCW titles and the invasion can run from there.

[Guest Razor Roman]

I am 100% convinced that the WWF's fall began at WrestleMania 2000 when Triple H became the first heel to win the main event.

 

I was one of many HUGE wrestling fans at my college and everyone was majorly bummed when Triple H won - to the point where some said "oh, the hell with it" and stopped watching.

 

The declines continued when Austin came back and his feud with Rikish was not well received and turned into a weak feud with HHH.

 

Everyone just continued to get bored with HHH beating all the faces and all the faced doing the exact same crap over and over again.

 

I am also convinced that Austin was never the huge draw that he gets credit for being. The WWF biggest period seems like it had more to do with the Rock n Sock connection than with Austin... Austin may have been the man responsible for bringing wrestling up out of its down period (and it's numbers are bigger now then they were in the pre-Nitro era) but it was while he was out injured that the WWF hit all of it all-time highs, and when he came back that the decline started.

 

Of course, his return also co-incided with the jump to TNN which probably didn't help. And where is all that cross-promotion that Viacom promised them if they jumped to TNN anyway?

[Guest humongous2002]

I think around the time the love triangle of Angle/Steph/HHH when it ended up in nothing and the fact that Rikishi was the driver that ran over Austin,that's when the WWF/E started bleeding.The funny thing is that's around the same time Steph became head booker, what a coincidence.