6 man cruiser match at WWA PPV

[Guest TheDames7]

TheDames7: what did you think of raw

Cream Beer: not nearly as great as revolution

Cream Beer: and you can lick somethin

Cream Beer: i loved the event

TheDames7: that event was good for only 2 things...

Cream Beer: right

TheDames7: the exposure of daniels and low ki.....and lynn on ppv

Cream Beer: wow

TheDames7: being treated as a threat

TheDames7: everything else was really bad

Cream Beer: good, nice

Cream Beer: so eddiewas terrible

Cream Beer: juvi and psicosis, nothing

TheDames7: he was good, but the match was bad

TheDames7: thats right, the match sucked in my opinion  

Cream Beer: the rest of the five men in the tag match, horrible

TheDames7: did i say that? no

Cream Beer: well you didn't say they were good

TheDames7: styles is good.....i think he should have been put over nova

Cream Beer: and i think that would've been a mistake

TheDames7: styles, and nova, and mamaluke have all been on ppv before

TheDames7: how would that have been a mistake...nova is already established, he's been on tons of ppv's for ecw.....you put over the new guys, the guys that were doing impressive shit and you get them over

TheDames7: nova doesn't need to be put over in that kind of a situation

TheDames7: he's already been proven

Cream Beer: this can easily set up a styles/nova match at the next event or somewhere down the line where the victor could be styles to a better victory, while nova has had his glory victories

TheDames7: thats understandable....but when all the announcers are saying is that this should be the chance for these unknowns to make a name for themselves, shouldn't  one of the unknowns go over...doesn't matter which one

TheDames7: i was even saying that during the match, the one person who didn't need the win was nova

Cream Beer: nova going over in the fiveman was the right thing to do, nova's more experienced and more recognized, not all wrestling fans are like you or whoever you talk to online that blow big ones off internet gossip about guys like styles and daniels and low-ki, most fans who knew who nova was would have cheered him on and thought wwa sucked surely if he'd lost

TheDames7: no, had styles pinned him with the styles clash, the move would have gotten over and everyone would have been like "oh shit, he's impressive, he just beat nova!"

Cream Beer: i think "making a name for yourself" has nothing to do with winning, and if you weren't trying to win this battle so much, you'd realize that, because i know you know that

Cream Beer: wrong

TheDames7: i believe what i'm saying, i'm not saying this to argue with you

TheDames7: nova has been on ppv since 1997

Cream Beer: "everyone" would've thought nova sucked and lost whatever it was he had in ecw, most smarks would've thought he got rusty and surely he would've been driven back to his comicbook gimmick since it "worked better for him", this way he launches into something more serious and mainatins his good profile with the fans by beating all these impressive guys

TheDames7: he is the one that should have jobbed to bring up newer talent!

TheDames7: ok, you must not know shit, because in case you forgot, nova stopped being a comic book gimmick a few ppv's before ecw folded

Cream Beer: look, nova is newer talent, he's just not as new as them, it's unfair to say that since he's been in ecw for a few years that he "should have" jobbed, that's unfair, im sure the wwa wanted to please the fans with a victor who they recognized the most

TheDames7: compared to all the new shit everyone was else was doing, nova's shit seems old

Cream Beer: note they were cheering nova, and this was a horrible crowd

TheDames7: they were cheering everyone but lowki

TheDames7: dont give me that shit

Cream Beer: ill compromise there

TheDames7: this crowd didnt look like they knew who a fucking person was, so fuck was they know

TheDames7: you put over the new talent

TheDames7: for the ppv audience

TheDames7: think about it like this.....WWA is a PPV ONLY promotion

Cream Beer: by jobbing a potential champion in his first appearance in the wwa? no way

TheDames7: therefore, they are catering to fans who want an alternative to WWF, and are willing to pay for it....just like ECW

TheDames7: same fans that ordered ECW and WCW events

TheDames7: those same fans who know who Nova is, and what he is about

Cream Beer: i think styles did well and proved himself thoroughly, defeating nova in the end would have good for him, definitely, but putting nova over was no mistake, as long as they have an angle in store or at least know what they're doing

TheDames7: stop being a shit head for one second and listen to me.  

TheDames7: where are the angles in WWA huh? they had ONE real angle and that was the eddy/lynn thing

TheDames7: and that was good!

Cream Beer: shithead because i think nova deserves the push in a promotion with more opp for him?

TheDames7: no...shithead because you wouldn't know how to run an indy fed at all

TheDames7: let me put it to you like this...ok

Cream Beer: you really didn't have to throw in "at all"

TheDames7: lets say you got a shitload of famous ecw guys, that you have to pay big money for

Cream Beer: at least i would go through with it if i wanted to

TheDames7: and you got lesser known guys that are just as talented and you know will always be around....

TheDames7: dont you think it makes sense to put over the lesser known guys, to educate your crowd to the point that the lesser known guys can draw money on their own?

Cream Beer: surely

TheDames7: ok then  

Cream Beer: but not at the expense of those who've paid their dues

TheDames7: thats how you get over faggot! you put newer talent over established stars!

TheDames7: the way you're talking, hogan should beat rock at WM because the world knows hogan

Cream Beer: nova was a class a jobber in the bwo, and after that he was stuck in angles that went nowhere until people started realizing his innovation and he began tagging with chetti

Cream Beer: you make me real mad, especially when i think im being very clear yet you scramble what im saying

TheDames7: yeah, and he started getting over with chetti...and WAS over on his own by the time ecw ended

TheDames7: make no mistake, nova is established  

Cream Beer: what's your point? that he should job his first match in the wwa because he's "had" his "glory" in ecw?

TheDames7: oh, so it wasn't shark boys first match in the wwa?  

TheDames7: or mamalukes, or styles?

Cream Beer: i dont see your point

Cream Beer: (note the lack of putting words in your mouth)

TheDames7: doesn't matter if it was nova's first match in wwa because it was everyone else's first match too, so that is a moot point....how do you like THAT for an explanation

Cream Beer: i think everyone went over very well and if nova would've lost, he would've looked like a real loser since he's the only "established" wreslter in the ring

TheDames7: you sound like a mark, seriously

TheDames7: he got his offense in, he's popular regardless if he jobs

Cream Beer: you've got to be kidding me

TheDames7: he jobbed a lot in ecw  

Cream Beer: you know what, i dont think ill be out of line if i compare nova's losing to tazz's losing in singles comp in the wwf

Cream Beer: in fact, i think that's a very good point

Cream Beer: , come to think of it

TheDames7: how can you compare the two....

TheDames7: most of the time that tazz has jobbed, he was the less established star in the WWF

TheDames7: most of the WWF fanbase had never seen Tazz if you compare ratings numbers

Cream Beer: tazz's putting people over in the wwf is what got everyone in the world laughing at the human suplex machine, he's not a threat anymore, not nearly a vicious killer

Cream Beer: i agree, good point, but not mine

TheDames7: no, it was his booking.....not his jobbing

Cream Beer: he jobbed every last match after angle

TheDames7: he stopped being a suplex machine, was put in angles with announcers, and wasn't allowed to be same tazz...had NOTHING to do with his jobbing

Cream Beer: n oone can look good with that

Cream Beer: fine point

TheDames7: think about it this way

TheDames7: tazz's first match in wwf was with angle right?

Cream Beer: my point is nova being pinned by styles may not have been a good move so soon into the wwa story

TheDames7: would you have put angle over in tazz's first match on ppv?

TheDames7: the wwa story....you act like this promotion has time to shoot angles!

TheDames7: they have ppv's every 2 months!!!

Cream Beer: alright, ill give there, but it would have been bad for nova, losing would have been very bad for nova, given the lack of tv exposure especially

TheDames7: given the fact that he's had exposure..and a lot of it, it wouldn't have made sense for him to go over, thats my point.  if wwa is going to put over new talent...then do it

Cream Beer: styles and the rest had close to nothing to lose by losing, they all put their 10 cents in and did excellent, and any real wrestling fan would take that over a pinfall as far as upcoming talent goes

TheDames7: ecw tv, ecw ppvs....the man was on tv a lot

TheDames7: and they had everything to gain!!!!

TheDames7: nova was the one who had the least to gain

TheDames7: thats like putting Undertaker over Sean O'Haire!!!

TheDames7: it would make more sense to put o'haire over!

Cream Beer: and i would never expect ohaire to win

TheDames7: over established fucking talent

TheDames7: because of the way shit is booked

TheDames7: if he did, people would think he was a threat, they wouldn't think less of UT

Cream Beer: perhaps in a grudge match or something real important on paper like a championship or something, but not just a match, id never ask for ohaire to pin undertaker, just to kick his ass good

TheDames7: ok...do you remember how Rock got over? I will tell you the moment it happened for me

Cream Beer: for a title, like hardcore or tag or something, yeah id be pissed if ohaire couldnt pull it off and id agree with you 100%  

TheDames7: when he pinned UT clean in a rock bottom in a tag match

Cream Beer: that's good

Cream Beer: i agree that was a good move

TheDames7: ok, fine.....then why not have them double team nova to get rid of them and have 2 unknowns impressing the world at the end of the 6 man

Cream Beer: but the 5man tag was more of a one on one match than it was a tag team match

Cream Beer: i agree there, done well that would've been excellent

Cream Beer: should low-ki have kicked him with his special and daniels hit the angel's wings on him or something with styles getting the pin, something like that would've been perfect

TheDames7: dammit, it was a 6 man!

Cream Beer: i forgot, sorry

Cream Beer: 6man then

TheDames7: so, you're telling me.......that if you saw that match, and styles beat nova clean, you would think nova was a loser?

Cream Beer: personally, i would not, but i would be disappointed in nova's direction in the wwa

Cream Beer: yes, i entirely would have been interested in where this would be going with styles

Cream Beer: but nova would have disappointed

TheDames7: keith, i'd like you to know something

TheDames7: WWA.....pays by the match, they do not have exclusive contracts

TheDames7: if nova had a contract, i would understand

Cream Beer: as i dont understand your point

TheDames7: ok...nova won the match right....they put him over styles

Cream Beer: so?

TheDames7: who is to say that at the next ppv, nova is booked somewhere else that night and can't make it to the show

TheDames7: since he's not contracted

TheDames7: then you put out a match between two cruisers who lost at the last ppv!

Cream Beer: so you're saying styles is contracted and nova is not?

TheDames7: i'm saying NO ONE IS

TheDames7: so why put over the guy who you have to pay more for

Cream Beer: then your point... my friend... is "moot"

TheDames7: dont try to patronize simply because you're wrong

Cream Beer: i see

TheDames7: if you have 2 workers....working for you, both extremely able

TheDames7: one you have to pay 15 an hour

TheDames7: the other 10

TheDames7: you have to cut one

TheDames7: who do you cut

Cream Beer: hypothetically? the 10 dollar one, no shit

TheDames7: exactly my point

Cream Beer: because hypothetically, the 15 dollar guy is worth the 15, no?

TheDames7: you put over the guy you'd have to pay less for, in a situation like this...and show the world that he is just as capable

Cream Beer: you said, who do you cut?

TheDames7: no, the guy is getting 15 simply because of his name, they both do the same thing

TheDames7: wait...no, no, no, you missed my point

Cream Beer: that's unfair to say it's just nova's name their paying for

TheDames7: you save the money, and get the same amount of work

TheDames7: ok, so if you were to book an indy fed.....ecw guys who are available would jump out at you, wouldn't they

Cream Beer: you spend the extra buck and get a more popular guy "who can do teh same thing"

TheDames7: that is bad business

Cream Beer: hypothetically, yes

TheDames7: the wwa wants to make money

TheDames7: yes? nod your fucking head

Cream Beer: you should know you have to spend in order to make

TheDames7: ok, fine....

Cream Beer: nova attracts more than styles, i like how styles carried himself sure, but let's be honest about right now, not the future of mr styles

TheDames7: so, in the case of the NWO...because of who they are, they are getting upwards of 700,000 each  

Cream Beer: which is wrong

TheDames7: why is that wrong

Cream Beer: and i would not have chosen them so dont fucking miz my words up again

TheDames7: if they are popular guys

TheDames7: why can't they just write better storylines with the alliance guys that they aren't using

Cream Beer: because they're not worth it and nothing will benefit from them being onboard, these are two completely different situations

TheDames7: and save the money

TheDames7: AJ Styles should have gone over, period  

TheDames7: Nova had no business going over, it was good for business at all

Cream Beer: yes, use the guys they have already and build them up as opposed to using the "established" old talentlost wrestleless wrestlers in the nwo

Cream Beer: the nwo are hardly nova

TheDames7: i'm comparing them in terms of establishment

TheDames7: if i ran an indy fed, i would SO outdraw you

Cream Beer: still different, everyone in the wwf is signed and long lasting, not in this case, as you mentioned before

TheDames7: ok, but i was talking about hiring so it is the same thing

Cream Beer: do you think i would never have nova job to styles due to one or the other's "establishment", is that what you think?

TheDames7: from what you're saying, you would put nova over because he is "more popular" and more well known

Cream Beer: not exactly, close but not exactly

Cream Beer: i would put him over because his losing, unless worked well in some sort of angle, would not be good for his run in my company, especially his first match in

Cream Beer: id perhaps have him win the 6man as he did and have him drop to styles in a tag team match, then perhaps a singles where styles would win

Cream Beer: maybe

Cream Beer: not blow the "established" right out of the way without even showing himself off too much yet

TheDames7: so, in your first match as an indy promoter, you would show your audience that styles isn't good enough to beat nova

Cream Beer: incorrect

TheDames7: keith, wtf do you mean that he hadn't showed himself too much?

TheDames7: how the fuck do we know about him!

Cream Beer: i would show that he has the ability to beat nova, but nova being more experienced, won

Cream Beer: that's right, "we" dont know about him

TheDames7: we do, you faggot, we've watched nova for years

Cream Beer: i was talking about styles

TheDames7: i'm going to hurt you, i was talking about nova

Cream Beer: yep, and i was talking about styles

Cream Beer: blowing the experienced out of the way without showing himself(styles) off too much yet

TheDames7: listen.....the way that you would put nova over because he's more experienced sounds good, but it would have to be done in a way so that styles would show some rookie mistakes

TheDames7: styles showed a lot at that ppv, nova barely did

Cream Beer: and until "we" do, he shouldn't be beating nova in his first meeting with him, especially in both their debut match

TheDames7: holy fuck, you dont get it

TheDames7: nevermind

Cream Beer: i disagree that nova "barely did" but i do agree that styles shined more

TheDames7: you stubborn man, nevermind

Cream Beer: no, the stubborn say nevermind and forget it

Cream Beer: ive been agreeing with a lot of what youve been saying and changing my mind about a few things too i might add

TheDames7: you aren't understanding me

TheDames7: you are saying that this is nova's debut match

TheDames7: people have seen him before and know what he can do

Cream Beer: in the wwa, yes

Cream Beer: yes, you are right

TheDames7: anyone ordering the wwa has watched wrestling before  

TheDames7: fuck the name of the promotion

Cream Beer: i agree

Cream Beer: fuck the name

TheDames7: so, if we all know he is talented, all know his signature moves, and all know that the guy doesn't suck.....

TheDames7: then why not let the guy who needs to be established get the victory.  

Cream Beer: have him suck now and lose to someone that only three of us know is any good

TheDames7: no, styles proved that he was good in the match!

Cream Beer: a hero proves his worth in defeat, not in victory

Cream Beer: and that's the basis for any good story

TheDames7: ok....here's an example, ok

TheDames7: goldberg's first match against hugh morris

TheDames7: do you think that hugh morris came out looking bad?

Cream Beer: i thought this would come up, i almost brought it up myself

TheDames7: do you think that everyone thought he sucked after this match?

TheDames7: well!

Cream Beer: i think his finisher was never intimidating again even as a face and i think goldberg was pushed too hard too early, his victory is not my grievance, but the way he squashed him was, however all in all im not too displeased with his defeating hugh morris in that match because it led to a much bigger picture, all be it gradual and almost by accident

TheDames7: ok....now, incase you dont remember the match, goldberg didn't get much offense, so it wasn't a squash

TheDames7: as a matter of fact, hugh morris gave him his finisher...and was in full control of the match

Cream Beer: it's a squash when you don't need to do much to beat a guy, in my book

TheDames7: well, then you have the wrong definition of a squash

Cream Beer: fine, squash the squash, it doesnt matter, goldberg beating hugh morris is hardly styles beating nova

TheDames7: no.....its actually the same thing.....seeing as how goldberg was a virtual unknown taking on an established wrestler on tv.  

TheDames7: regardless of what happened afterwards with goldberg, first match is the same situation

Cream Beer: for the record, how many world title shots, not even reigns, shots, did hugh morris get after that?

TheDames7: i didn't count

Cream Beer: zero

TheDames7: how many world title shots will nova get?

Cream Beer: of course im not entirely positive, but the fact that we cant remember one, while we can remember goldberg's must mean something

Cream Beer: nova has gotten zero title shots to my knowledge

Cream Beer: world title shots that is

TheDames7: so then your point means nothing

TheDames7: ok, so you are saying that because nova went over at the wwa ppv, that he will go on to be big things....

TheDames7: who is to say that wwa will even exist in 6 months  

TheDames7: styles had more to gain by getting a win on tv

Cream Beer: okay.... my point is that these are two different situations and if anything we can learn that you shouldn't put over newer talent at the expense of those who've paid their dues and maybe deserve to win

Cream Beer: i disagree

Cream Beer: should the wwa live longer than 6 months, nova can use his "beating all the rookies that thought they had a good shot on tv" angle to his advantage, should they go with angles any time

Cream Beer: and maybe he could argue that styles isn't in his league, while maybe everyone will know that although nova beat him, styles did have his number at a few points in the match

TheDames7: why bury all the rookies, when you can use them, and build their names up!

Cream Beer: they were far from buried

TheDames7: explain what you meah by "at the expense"

TheDames7: in your situation, you are burying the rookies

Cream Beer: nova's losing would've shown that he himself is still a lowcarder, it would not have proven to anyone but you and me that styles is coming up, it would've shown that styles got a win over someone who couldn't, that is my hypothesis and my reason for not jobbing nova had i the power

TheDames7: wow....i'm going to copy and paste this convo and see what other people think.  

Cream Beer: when the rock pinned the undertaker in that tag match, he had pineed a man who'd won titles in the very same company, wrestled greats like hogan and savage and snake, if styles beat nova, he would've beaten a man who might have been rusty or losing it

Cream Beer: i have no problem with that at all

Cream Beer: hi, everyone!

Cream Beer: hope you enjoy the show!

TheDames7: keith.....thats why you show that nova isn't losing it by making the match competitive! which i think it was  

Cream Beer: do you think i'm too stubborn? my email is [email protected]

TheDames7: how about this, nova gets the kryptonite krunch, styles foot in on the rope, and then styles hits the styles clash for the pin

TheDames7: keeps nova strong, dont it

Cream Beer: in a perfect wreslting world with a perfect audience who all keep up with every match that ever takes place, yes that would be perfect, 100% i agree, but not everyone remembers the details of a match, just who won and who lost and who's getting the title shot next week or month

TheDames7: then you just contradicted yourself

Cream Beer: have i?

TheDames7: yeah, because had nova lost to styles.....yet goes to win other matches in the wwa.....then according to what you just said, people will forget about nova jobbing to styles

Cream Beer: what?

Cream Beer: i said people remember wins and losses more than who kept what competitive, more not entirely, and i included wins and losses, incase you misread the beginning of this sentence again

TheDames7: nevermind, just shut up for a moment so i can cut and paste

 

Who do you guys think was right?

 

Dames

[Guest Brian]

For a start-up promotion, you put the title on an established guy.

[Guest Dace59]

Nova gets nothing normally because he can't work a match, makes spots look bad, is very sloppy and rips people off, leaving a bad attitude around him.

[Guest TheDames7]

Brian, the match wasn't for any title, it was just a 6 man cruiserweight match where the announcers were stating that this match could put an unknown on the map.  I agree, for a title, you put over the established guy, but I don't see the point of Nova going over in a situation like this.  

 

Dames

[Guest goodhelmet]

I personally don't like nova so I didn't want him to go over. That being said, you put over who you think will be on your next PPV. If AJ Styles is on the next PPV, you put him over, no doubt, because he is about twenty times more talented then Nova.

And even though Nova was with ECW, it's not like they had a huge national audience. Nova is just some indy guy like the rest of them.

[Guest Brian]

Oh. Well I watched MOTHER FUCKING PRIDE on Sunday, so I wouldn't know.

[Guest MarvinisaLunatic]

Anything is better than nothing, which is basically the amount of cruiser matches you get watching WWF.  They werent the greatest, but they were still very good matches (Survival Match and 3 way dance that is) The rest of the PPV pretty much sucked, although I did get a kick out of the midget match for some reason.  And they could have done better than Brian Christopher in the main event, but I guess it could be hard to replace a main event worker with short notice..

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

styles should have gone over

[Guest CoreyLazarus416]

Guess I'm in the vast minority that thought LowKi or Daniels should have gone over

[Guest TheDames7]

Corey, I agree with you, but we were talking about those two because it came down to those two.  

 

Dames

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I wasn't very impressed with Lowki.

 

He kicks well.

 

AJ Styles stood out far above the others.

[Guest goodhelmet]

I thought Low Ki used some freaky submissions and i was into his wierd shoot style. But I agree with bps that AJ Styles shined the most. I had never heard of this guy but now I want more dammit! As for daniels, I've seen his Curry Man getup and some previous stuff but he was very underwhelming at the show. As for Nova, I could care less if I ever see the guy again. I would tell the WWF to sign these guys but we'd never see them wrestle so stay in the indies!

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I'll say this...If the WWF ever wanted to actually have a cruiser division...AJ Styles and Christopher Daniels are the first 2 people I'd sign.

[Guest Imarkout4chrisdaniels]

You can probably tell by the name that I like Daniels.  I have been wanting to see Lo-ki for awhile, and AJ Styles impressed me with the few moments he got in WCW toward the end.  If I were revamping or starting a cruiser division in a promotion, I'd have:

 

Christopher Daniels

AJ Styles

Elix Skipper

Rey Misterio Jr.

Jamie Knoble

Shannon Moore

 

Those are people not on the main WWF roster at this point, and could easily be added with Helms, Tajiri, Kidman, and others getting the shaft in the WWF.  Put them out there and let them have time to develop a match.

[Guest WebCameron665]

For the love of God! The topic was the 6man cruiser match at WWA Revolution! Can we get one... JUST ONE... decent, respectable, well thought reply that actually answers the question: Who's right? Who should've gone over? AJ Styles or Nova? And for all you Nova-bashers out there, not that I need to kiss up to anyone who puts a guy like Nova down, but I'm not some huge Nova fan either. I just agreed with him going over and feel that his jobbing would have been a poor decision as far as a future for Nova in the WWA is concerned. Styles will shine with time like everyone else should. With time and development. Nova's paid his. Give him a fuckin' cookie already. By the way, I bash no one but Terry Bolea and other bashers. I like the way you handled yourself in that discussion Cream. You too Dames, a little hard on him though. He's not that stubborn. You didn't budge much either you know.

 

-Cameron

 

"Because I'm the master... and the ruler... of the squirells! (insert 'oh shit' face here)" - Sid Vicious

[Guest flasher]

cam said i should read this and say something. so here,

 

cream beer's right, go nova!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

and if you dont like that you can tickle my elmo, sound like a plan?

 

-(sign here)

 

"in the famous words of socrates just before he died, 'i drank what?'"

[Guest ManKinnd]

I would agreed to disagree a long time ago.

[Guest TheDames7]

I like the way you handled yourself in that discussion Cream. You too Dames, a little hard on him though. He's not that stubborn. You didn't budge much either you know.

 

-Cameron

 

"Because I'm the master... and the ruler... of the squirells! (insert 'oh shit' face here)" - Sid Vicious

Thanks for answering the question.  The guy is my best friend, and we usually ride each other much worse than that.  If I didn't know the guy, I wouldn't have been so harsh.  

 

Dames