Does ECW get unfair criticism......

[Guest RickyChosyu]

And as far as ECW brawling being a ripoff of Kevin Sullivan....WTF is that all about, what because they brawled through the crowd? Yah I guess that summed up all of the brawling. Didn't Kevin Sullivan involve himself in the early days of ECW anyways, so maybe it was just his influence rather than "ripping off"

You're missing the point. People who discuss Raven/Dreamer, or any of ECW's product, as being revolutionary obviously never saw anything before 1993, because Sullivan was doing this stuff long before ECW came around. I could honestly care less where they got the idea from, but the point is most of these "gritty" (or attempting to be gritty) storylines were not anything new, and all of the acheivments people somehow attribute to ECW usually never had anything to do with them, but more of a really horrible time for both of the big two. Hence, your assumption that ECW was the best for year really means nothing, since that was an all time low for both Stamford and Atlanta in more ways than one.

[Guest NoCalMike]

Well if I would ever point to anything in ECW as "revolutionary" it certainly would not be Dreamer/Raven anyways.

[Guest JHawk]

The best way I can describe ECW comes from my father, who is as anti-hardcore wrestling as you can get. "When it first came on, I thought it was nothing but garbage cans and tables, but if you look past that there were some talented guys that came through there."

 

What I've found out about most people who criticize ECW (and this is not a knock or a flame bait even if it sounds like it) is that they are too concerned with things like star ratings. Sometimes what sells the promotion aren't the five star classics, but the average match that is entertaining in spite of itself.

 

OK, so maybe ECW never had a ***** classic. Maybe even the best ECW wouldn't cross the *** range on a generous night. But off and on between 1996 and 1999, when I saw ECW in spurts because they weren'ton locally, I was entertained by what I saw. When I got to see them weekly beginning in May 1999, I became engrossed in the product. That is because when the wrestling was bad, it was still more entertaining than anything in the Big Two.

 

Hey, I'm as much a fan of great wrestling as anybody. And I'll watch the ECW tapes and DVDs , and my tapes of the old TV product, and I'll admit it's a lot harder to sit through them now than it was back then. But it was one hell of a ride, and a ride that I'm still depressed about ending.

 

By the way, unless you're a nWo mark, I don't see how you can take ECW in 1997 and say it was worse than WCW the same year. Just my opinion though.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

WCW still had a few good matches popping up every once in a while, but overall both were pretty bad. However, that's simply a lesser of two evils arguement, as ECW's product was still quite poor itself, and was no where near the levle of TV the WWF was putting out at the time, with Austin and the Harts dominating the shows.

[Guest SupaTaft]

Ok, I honestly don't know why ECW is being discussed on this site. Smarks look only at the quality of the actual wrestling, not the entertainment value to Average Joe.

 

From a Smark's perspective, ECW smoked cock. There were probably only about three actually decent wrestling matches in the history of the fed. Now from your average mark's perspective, ECW was the shit. A change of pace from the boring and often tedious repetition of the WWF/WCW. Throw in insane bumps, bloodletting and emotional angles and you've got yourself one hell of a show.

 

ECW never was a Smark's cup of tea, but to everyone else who watched wrestling at the time, ECW was a breath of fresh air and fun to watch. It certainly made wrestling promotions known worldwide as "The Big Three".

 

Plus Cactus Jack is the shit in any fed he ever wrestled for.

 

-Taft

[Guest JHawk]

WCW still had a few good matches popping up every once in a while, but overall both were pretty bad. However, that's simply a lesser of two evils arguement, as ECW's product was still quite poor itself, and was no where near the levle of TV the WWF was putting out at the time, with Austin and the Harts dominating the shows.

Well quite honestly, outside of the main event, the free TV on WWF wasn't a whole lot better than WCW or ECW at the time either. Better, yes, but overall it was starting into the more entertainment than sport formula that seems to be dominant now. Outside of the Bulldog/Owen vs. HBK/Austin tag title match, I can't think of one really blowaway match that aired on Raw that year after WrestleMania 13. As far as the non-wrestling segments were though, they were blowing WCW and ECW away, but wrestling-wise, I found 1997 to be a down year in general.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

And ECW wasn't tedious? This is a promotion that ran both Dreamer/Raven and Taz/Sabu for a YEAR EACH, which was way more than either of those feuds deserved. The bloodletting was hardly a mask for a shitty promotion, and neither were the insane bumps. Emotional angles? Do you have any evidence of this, or are you just happy making generalizations all the time?

 

J-Hawk, the WWF was still putting out TV a million times more compelling than anything ECW was doing. D-X provided the sleazy atmosphere that mutants craved, and Austin/Hart was a very engaging feud that involved great wrestling, to boot. It was hardly a fantastic period, as it was pretty much the beginning of the end for quality wrestling as I liked it, but it was better than the putrid crap coming out of ECW, which hadn't been able to produce a decent product since early '96.

 

And assuming that you really do think '97 was a bad year for wrestling, how exactly do you enterpret this as a good thing for ECW? You're pretty much proving my point here, because ECW itself was never above mediocre, yet the big two being in a slump makes it better?

 

As for no good matches in '97, it had the greatest NA match I've ever seen, Misterio/Guererro, as well as Hart/Austin, which is one of my favorite WWF matches of all time. For NA, I thought '97 was quite stellar.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I stand by my statement.

 

Had ECW not brought in Rey and Psicosis, and had not brought in Eddy, Dean and Benoit...

 

you probably would have never seen that Rey vs. Eddy match in WCW.

 

It wasn't until ECW gave them the chance to go and show the average North American viewer what they could do that the other promotions took notice of them.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

As opposed to seeing it in Mexico?

 

Seriously, I think that's quite a presumptuous statement. WCW was bringing in plenty of luchadores via Connan and Rey would have definitely been one of them, with or without his exposure in ECW. Same goes for Juve, same goes for Psichosis. If ECW was the only way for the luchadores to get into the big two, how did Lizmark, Silver King, Fuerza, Super Calo, and all the other guys get in without working for them? This really doesn't hold any ground.

 

As for Guererro, Malenko, and Benoit, the last two had worked for WCW before ECW even came into being, and thus, had "shown North America what they could do" for quite some time. That pretty much negates any influence ECW had on getting them exposure stateside. As for Guererro, he would have gotten in at some point, be it through the working agreements with NJPW or AAA. Nothing stopping any of the three men from getting noticed; they just needed the incentive to work in a place where they might be underappreciated. Money proved to do the trick, and ECW certainly had nothing to do with that.

 

Your arguement makes very little sense, and I see no reason to believe that ECW had any sort of possitive influence on wrestling in general.

[Guest Youth N Asia]

ECW never was a Smark's cup of tea

I gotta disagree...ECW seemed to be the first company to let the smarks in, if that makes any sesne.

 

Most of their fanbase consisted of smart marks...you can look at the fans and write them off as marks cause they mark out and boo the heels...but I think most smarks do that cause they understand that's how it's suppose to go down.

 

I don't know if that made any sense...I'm tired.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

I think what the big thing about ECW was that it was easy to get into the product cause Heyman had a way of making you care about pretty much everyone on the roster one way or another. This made for some of the hottest crowds ever. Yeah a lot of the matches weren't 5* classics, but there were some good technical matches too. You can't downplay the emotion that was flowing in that little bingo hall. The action was emotional. From the constant "please don't go" chants during Malenko and Eddy's last ECW match to Cactus Jack's emotional farewell. Something special happened there that can't be forgotten.

[Guest Midnight Express83]

I give heyman credit, he knows how to train a crowd.

 

But ECW's promblem was that it was an indy fed trying to make to the big time without letting it grow. Heyman should have made sure he had the money to go national before doing such. It had a SMALL fanbase. That said base wasn't big enough to keep it alive. So ECW in my opinion was a small fed that had alot of great matches from people who were smart enough to leave it a LONG time ago.

 

And the crowd was pure bullshit at times. Tazz leaving ring a bell? Awesome leaving so he can make a living. Damn that bastard for wanting to eat. Foley's farewell. Sandman leaving and getting booed out the building. Returns and gets biggest pop ofthe night. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Have to agree with midnight there. I have to question the emotion of a fan base that chants "Fuck Sabu" when he no-shows one night and then treats him like the second coming when he comes back. Fair-weather fans are hardly the type of thing to brag about.

 

And I'd like to know what these "great technical matches" are, too. Back up your generalizations, if it's not too much trouble.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

Actually now that I think about it Eddy vs. Malenko was about the only great technical match I can think of.

 

I've seen fair wheather fans. Part of me thinks they were just playing along with the storylines to make it better. Since they did pop when he came back instead of going "what's this asshole want now?"

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Actually now that I think about it Eddy vs. Malenko was about the only great technical match I can think of.

 

I've seen fair wheather fans. Part of me thinks they were just playing along with the storylines to make it better. Since they did pop when he came back instead of going "what's this asshole want now?"

Sabu no-showing wasn't a storyline, just the usual "burry the guy who sold out" mentality of all the mutants at the time.

 

"He hasn't gotten payed in over a year and wants to feed his familly? BOOO!!!!"

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

Did the fans know that?

 

See I didn't know it wasn't a storyline cause I haven't seen that incident or heard the story.

[Guest AnnieEclectic]

I may be biased being an ECW fan, but....

 

Mike Awesome was a fucking asshole the -way- he left ECW. Can't argue his reasoning behind it, but christ on a blade, let the booker drop the title off you before leaving, or, I don't know, fucking tell him that next week you'll be on Nitro.

 

Mike Awesome fucking sucks. And he has a mullet.

 

I'd disown him completely from my wrestling memory if his FMW/ECW feuds with Tanaka weren't the shit.

 

-Annie

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Sabu no showed to work an event in Japan. It had nothing to do with ECW storylines - he was scheduled to team with Taz in a three way dance for the tag titles in the main event of the show. Now, his decision to do this could have come from any number of reasons, be it a previous agreement he had to honor, or just getting payed. ECW promptly burried him on TV and the fans turned on him accordingly, buying right into it.

 

As for Awesome, he claims there was another side to the story, and after hearing how much money Paul owed some of the guys working for him near the end of ECW's run, I'm inclinded to give him some room for arguement there. Keep in mind, some of these guys had been owed huge sums of money by Paul for years, and many of them never got it. This is why people booing Jerry Lynn for leaving is dispicable; he simply had no choice in the matter.

[Guest Youth N Asia]

Mike Awesome was a fucking asshole the -way- he left ECW. Can't argue his reasoning behind it, but christ on a blade, let the booker drop the title off you before leaving, or, I don't know, fucking tell him that next week you'll be on Nitro.

 

With Awesome I'm sure not dropping the belt was part of the deal, it's probably what he had to do to get the job...BUT he did come back and job it out, you gotta give the man a little something on that.

 

I heard Paul E say somewhere that Buh Buh (who was in the WWF) asked Paul if he wanted him and D-von to fly to FL and take the belt personally.

 

GRANTED! I was a die hard ECW mark, so I hated the fucker for doing it...but with ECW dead now it's a little easier to forgive.

 

BUT...Paul E's a WWE big shot now...and Mikey's out of work...goes to show what goes around comes around.

[Guest bob_barron]

I thought having Tazz come in and win was pretty cool.

 

I mean Awesome and WCW had to be like: Whoa- wait a minute

[Guest Youth N Asia]

ALTHOUGH...I forgot to mention this.

 

I believe Mike Awesome had a try out match before he "debuted"...a little while before that on Thunder DDP wrestled a guy in a black mask names "The Executioner"...I swore up and down that guy was Mike Awesome, he did the same moves and did the same little double thumbs pointing to the chest deal.

 

And that guy was never on tv before or after that...so I think that was Awesome under that mask.

 

Anyone else remember this?

[Guest bob_barron]

If I recall- DDP wrestled someone named Invader or something like that.

 

But I don't think WCW could pull that off w/o anyone knowing.

 

This is WCW you know

[Guest Youth N Asia]

"Invader" would kinda be ironic actually.

 

I still firmly believe this was Mike Awesome...I wish someone who taped the should would report.

[Guest Smell the ratings!!!]

Although I didn't get into ecw untill after they got on to pay per view, meaning I missed almost all of what this argument is based on, I can say that Ecw that I knew was flat all about heat. for whatever odd reason, and maybe it was just for kicks, every Ecw match, no matter how unimportant, or talentless, or badly booked, was extremly important to the audience at home and at the show.

 

that's why it looks like a bunch of marks cheering for New Jack or going "holy shit" or booing a "sell out" out of the building. And it's the same reason the sell out got a standing ovation when he came back, because really, they love the guy, because he's a wrestler, and the're mutants.

 

I don't think there was ever a great match in all of Ecw. Good ones, sure, but no great ones. And so if Ricky watches the Misawa/Kawada series today, and then tries to watch the Sabu/Taz series tommorow, then gives up and says "Taz and Sabu ate fucking ass", I don't think that's unfair.

 

so that's why people who liked Ecw will endlessly defend it from people who didn't. Ecw had some charm where it was fun, and every match was huge, and every show was a riot. Looking back on it years later, (or trying to watch those fucking FMW level Dvd's ) all you see is average matches and crappy "brawling".

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I wouldn't need to watch Misawa/Kawada to know that Taz/Sabu sucked ass - it's a bad match under any standards.

 

I see what you're getting at, though.

[Guest Youth N Asia]

Get out your Cyberslam 99 tapes and Watch Justin/Shane...that match is a classic! And you can use the the star rating however you want, but you cannot convince me that it wasn't a great match.

[Guest SupaTaft]

Surprisingly enough I got that YNA. These Smarks, however, were not Smarks of the whole wrestling world per se. They were simply ECW Smarks, i.e. they knew the wrestlers' backgrounds and pretty much everything about them, so they truly knew who to cheer for and who to boo and for what reason.

 

Had the ECW faithful had not been so psychotic and so devoted to their company, they probably wouldn't have been classified as Smarks. They were not Smarks in the traditional sense but from a certain point of view they were.

 

If that makes any sense.

 

-Taft

[Guest CoreyLazarus416]

I'm with bps in the ECW loyalty.

 

Sorry, but the very first time I watched ECW, I got caught up in the storylines and emotionally attached to the workers in the 30 minute pre-show countdown. Now THAT'S booking.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Taft: If they knew what was actually going on, they wouldn't have booed Lynn, Sandman, Sabu, and everyone else who jumped ship at one time or another. ECW fans were as clueless as anyone, if not moreso.

[Guest Youth N Asia]

ECW knew how to make fans care...you gotta give them credit for that.

 

Those 30 minute shills were very good...Joey Styles is underrated.