Just a thought here

[Guest wolverine]

Edit: I wasn't referring to Bionic Redneck's post as Coffin Surfer said. I was referring to Rolling Chop's prior post.

[Guest Lear's Fool]

How does more "intense" offense make up for poor storytelling? A match has to be laid out smartly before any of it can matter.

 

And I don't know how many "old-school" matches you've watched, or if your idea of old school is the 89 Flair/Steamboat series, but most everything I've seen from the 60's and 70's has been rather benign in terms of stiffness. Is anyone in this thread going to directly discuss the happenings of a match to make a point, or is everyone just going to continue the vague hand-waving while failing to make points half as well as others have in the past?

[Guest DragonflyKid]

I meant old-school as AJ late 80's/early 90's where the new AJ style began to really evolve. That's probably not "old-school" but it's what I meant.

 

I'm going to continue to be vague. I watch a match and either like it/dislike it. I don't write down or remember every detail in order to validate my like/dislike of the match or see a need to analyze/over-analyze it.

[Guest Lear's Fool]

Then don't expect anyone to think twice about your attempted analyses of promotional trends, or your comments on matches that were a result of those trends, or, for that matter, your poor use of buzzwords. 1989 isn't old-school, unless you're 10.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Isn't "old school" a style of wrestling, rather than a time period?

[Guest Brian]

I sort of consider 1989 the last year that the old style was in play. Flair/Steamboat was really the pinnacle and Jumbo/Misawa brought that over to Japan and started working with that. I really believe that it was Funk and Flair with the Puerto Rican style of brawling that really changed the way mainstream matches were done for years to come; they really left the door open for foley in the indies in the early nineties and ECW years later.

[Guest Lear's Fool]

Huh???

 

Jumbo & Misawa didn't "bring" Flair/Steamboat to Japan, you dunce. There's no connection - zero - between the two feuds. Jumbo & Misawa were building off the Jumbo/Tenryu work from 88 and 89, which was far more state-of-the-art than Flair/Steamboat (though Tenryu & Jumbo weren't working multiple singles matches together every month and could afford to be adventurous).

[Guest PlatypusFool]

Don't feed the Lear's Fool!

 

RollingChop's point about Misawa / Kobashi / Kawada having to continue to grow past the point where head-dropping moves will defeat them makes perfect sense. AJPW psych has always been about that. In one match, the Tiger Drier is enough to finish an opponent off, in a match a year later, something more powerful has to be used to finish that same opponent because the opponent has grown to a higher level of strength. This has always been the way, from the early 90's right through to 2000. Just because the wrestlers grew in strength beyond the point that you enjoyed, doesn't make the attempted psychology any less logical.

 

Also, RollingChop's worrying point about young guys in NOAH using head dropping moves, despite the lack of their growth beyond more basic moves is, IMO, correct. I hear of one young NOAH guy, who has done nothing to grow greatly in strength, having to be fnished with a suplex into a tombstone move. Hugely dangerous, very impressive, but surely something that should be saved for defeating someone like Misawa or Kobashi, someone too strong for the more usual finishers.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

Lear's Fool Posted on Oct 13 2002, 03:27 PM

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Then don't expect anyone to think twice about your attempted analyses of promotional trends, or your comments on matches that were a result of those trends, or, for that matter, your poor use of buzzwords. 1989 isn't old-school, unless you're 10

 

How can you expect the common poster to see stuff your way all the time?, you may be a puro fan but you have a critic's mentality. If I had a website and was required to analyze to a certain degree then I might feel different, but I am interested in being a fan and not a critic. I go into a match wanting to enjoy it not go into it wanting to find reasons to enjoy it while looking to point out flaws.

 

You often critique posters like they should have the same level of observation or knowledge as you. You come off as a critic moreso than a fan, that's why it feels to me there's a disconnection between you and some of the posters. Most puro fans aren't on your level, does that mean we should all shut up? I didn't say I was a genius, I merely gave my opinion on the subject being discussed and feel there was validity to it.

 

I used the word old-school because the subject was the AJ style, so I meant the old-school AJ style. Old-school doesn't have to imply stuff that happened an x amount of years ago, it can refer to a style that is no longer used or an era that has passed. There is an old-school folder here at the SM forum that refers to stuff that happened only 5 years ago or more.

 

PlatypusFool Posted on Oct 14 2002, 11:36 AM

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Don't feed the Lear's Fool!

 

RollingChop's point about Misawa / Kobashi / Kawada having to continue to grow past the point where head-dropping moves will defeat them makes perfect sense. AJPW psych has always been about that. In one match, the Tiger Drier is enough to finish an opponent off, in a match a year later, something more powerful has to be used to finish that same opponent because the opponent has grown to a higher level of strength. This has always been the way, from the early 90's right through to 2000. Just because the wrestlers grew in strength beyond the point that you enjoyed, doesn't make the attempted psychology any less logical.

 

Also, RollingChop's worrying point about young guys in NOAH using head dropping moves, despite the lack of their growth beyond more basic moves is, IMO, correct. I hear of one young NOAH guy, who has done nothing to grow greatly in strength, having to be fnished with a suplex into a tombstone move. Hugely dangerous, very impressive, but surely something that should be saved for defeating someone like Misawa or Kobashi, someone too strong for the more usual finishers.  

 

[Guest wolverine]

That you have to justify why you like these matches, and preface everything with 'yes, the early 90's stuff is superior, but....' pretty much tells people that the matches flawed. Heavily I might add.

 

It's matches like these that are the reasons so many people gravitated towards other styles of wrestling. There's only a certain amount times you can see the same shit over and over again, before it gets redundant.

[Guest Black Tiger]

Wolverine,

 

Just to play devil's advocate here, what about the early 1990's matches makes them superior to the later 1990's in your opinion?

 

I'm not saying your wrong or anything. I'm limited in my AJPW viewing, but the majority that I HAVE seen has been early 1990's and I love it. What about it besides a lack of head drops makes it better than later years?

[Guest wolverine]

Watch the matches and judge for yourself.

 

I wasn't spoonfed this information when I got into this stuff - I just got a lot tapes and was able to determine what was good and what wasn't.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

1990-1996 AJPW matches focus on the stories of matches, with the moves all being done in correlation with the deeper story.

 

The Misawa/Kobashi series of 1998-1999 has no story. They just throw out moves to wooooo the crowd. No deeper story there.

 

The last AJPW to focus on a story was 6/12/98 Kawada v Kobashi with Kawada doing everything in his power to make that match work. Wrong person went over but what can you do.

 

Compare the late 90's matches to the Hansen/Kobashi 7/93 match or the 6/94 MIsawa/Kawada and see where story will ALWAYS play a more advanced role over moves in a pro style match any day of the week.

 

Tim

[Guest Evil Ash]

Would it be out of place, and would I come off as an idiot, if I mentioned that though I can appreciate James Joyce and Thomas Wolfe (and write long, drawn out essays on them - but that's another story) I'd often just rather read a Punisher comic?

[Guest PlatypusFool]

I think the point you are making is very valid, Ash, but I can only guess at who these people are, and what they represent in the world of comics. What relation do these folk have to puroresu, and why does it relate to this argument?

[Guest Brian]

What I meant was that Jumbo was working am ore old school vibe, reminiscent of what Flair/Steamboat was the pinnacle of in the US at WrestleWar and the 2/3 falls match, and Misawa came in as the high flyer and young gun of the Tiger Mask gimmick he had just unmasked from. It was really what Flair and Steamboat failed to do, evolve from the style they had just hit a peak in.

[Guest Evil Ash]

Platypus, James Joyce and Thomas Wolfe are two authors of hard literature. James Joyce is probably the biggest wordsmith ever, considered by some to be a better writer than Shakespeare. Wolfe is another extremely talented (and long-winded) writer.

 

Punisher comics are, well, comics where the Punisher blows shit up.

 

I mentioned it because though I love and appreciate intense storytelling and brilliant psychology in wresting matches, and would consider any match that has such aspects in it to be superior to most others, there are many times when I'd rather just see wrestlers commit suicidal stunts and drop each other on their skulls for my amusement.

 

And sometimes intense spotfest with no real substance (Punisher comics) are more fun to watch (and therefore better in the world of entertainment) than those matches with impressive storylines and psychology (James Joyce, etc)

 

I tried to say that through an analogy. I guess it didn't work.

[Guest wolverine]

No, it worked just fine - as long as you don't claim "Punisher" is on the same level quality wise. Being able to differentiate what has substance and what doesn't is key, no matter how much you like the lesser work.

[Guest Evil Ash]

Oh, I agree. But I still think I can walk up to two guys discussing Shakespeare and tell them to check out Punisher #138 because the violence is intense, the jokes are witty, and the art is brilliant.

 

Furthermore, those two dudes could then read the comic and find it more fun and entertaining than "Twelfth Night".

 

And that, in the end, does have value.

 

If I didn't kill the analogy dead dead dead.

 

 

Or in simpler terms, I know that in several aspects Kawada/Misawa 94 is superior to many matches in both techniques used and the actual 'sense' of the match, but if I find some sort of insane spotfest featuring luchadores and barbed-wire more entertaining I can't really say Kawada/Misawa is the better match. Because, in the end, wrestling is a form of entertainment.

 

Of course, the discussion then becomes one of the actual 'art' involved in entertainment. I'd rather watch "Starship Troopers" than "Schindler's List", but one won't stand against the other very well when aspects of movie as an art form are discussed.

 

If that all makes sense.

[Guest Jubuki]

It makes sense, but does anyone actually care about this?

[Guest Special K]

I'm by no mean an expert, but the general problem seems to be the rampant no-selling, which leads to the rampant head-dropping. What I mean by no-selling is a general lack of respect for moves. When Kobashi kicked out of 2 murder backdrops, he was clearly just running on pure desire to win. Hence, I didn't like the 95 match when 3 dangerous backdrops to Misawa by Kawada did essentially nothing to Misawa, nothing to even diminish the potency of his elbows.

 

Also, you have to think that they could have prevented the rampant head-dropping by slightly changing the philisophy at the time. What I mean is, instead of the thinking that "if 3 of move X and 2 of move Y don't work, 5 of move X and 3 of Y certainly will.' Thinking 'If I more effectively work on his neck early on, Y will hurt him a lot more.' Basically, just thinking up alternate strategies besides just doing more and more finishers until the ending stretches are just marathons of no-selling head drops for 15 minutes. DOn't know if that makes any sense.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

Evil Ash, your analogy made a whole lot of sense, and everything you have said makes a whole lot of sense in fact. I've been saying the same thing for aaaaaaages on this board, no one really listens too hard, but it's worth a try

[Guest Special K]

I think the one thing that disturbs me about the puro critic elite, is that they don't seem to LIKE any wrestlers. I mean you here comments all the time like 'I hate Kobashi post '98' Where's all the appreciation and respect for Kobashi killing his body and having great matches for many years?

[Guest wolverine]

I appreciate the great matches Kobashi had in his career, but he's a moron for destroying his body the way he did.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

Has anybody seen or heard of Kobashi's recent matches? Hopefully he isn't still using the Moonsault.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

We're supposed to give him props for taking lots of pointless head-drops and killing his body? What sense does that make? And can we please drop these pointless and vague phrases like "puro critic elite" that serve no purpose but to segregate people into a group?

 

"He doesn't like Kobashi? PURO ELITIST!!!"

 

Using terminology like that makes you no better than idiots who call people "n00bs" if they haven't seen 8+ hours of AJPW. It's stupid, so don't do it.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

I hate people who can't differeniate from "respecting" a wrestler from pointing out that someone's matches after a certain period suck.

 

Tim

[Guest Black Tiger]

I love Kenta Kobashi, but he needs to retire. His knees are too fucked up and he's only going to get himself into worse shape.

[Guest Special K]

Oh no, I just mean, that people generally don't give props to people that have been great, and then don't live up to their past greatness. It DOES make me sad that Kobashi has destroyed his knees to the point of no return.

[Guest wolverine]

From what I've seen, he hasn't had a **** match since Akiyama 7/98 (though the Omori 4/00 match is borderline and a miracle). The guy should've had knee surgery years ago, instead of letting all of the injuries pile up to the point of ridiculousness.