Guest Agent of Oblivion Report post Posted October 18, 2002 Hey, I never said Jericho was better than Akira Hokuto or anything, that would be stupid, but Jericho's had his moments. I don't think the ending of the submission match was gimmicky at all, Benoit did everything he could to make Jericho tap out, but he wouldn't, so he just calmly slid the hold just a little south and choked him unconcious. He put over his heel character in a very subtle way, and Jericho still came out as a plucky underdog face. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted October 18, 2002 "Okay folks, time to stop loving the cock and get back on topic, since the Jericho side has good points that the Joshi side -can't- disprove, and the Joshi side has good points that the Jericho side can't disprove. Therefore any more arguing lends creedence to the following statement." Have you read the topic? Aside from Culture God's trolling, Joshi hasn't been a topic in this discussion, and I don't see what's wrong with discussing Jericho's work, as I think he's particularly overrated by a whole host of people. What "disprovable points" has anyone made thus far? Jingus refuses to argue his point, Culture God said basically nothing, and Platypus is just stating his opinion like everyone else. Platypus: It was a blatant choke, one that anyone could see, and ended the match on a really lame note. The "he passes out in the hold" finish is the US version of the one-hour draw, and it's equally annoying. Plus, if they were going to do that finish, why didn't they have Jericho pass out "from the pain" of his shoulder that Benoit had worked over the entire match? The body of the match wasn't that good either, as Jericho is totally out-of-place in the slower-paced match style they were trying to work. He's always had a tendancy to blow up sooner than he should, which is why his high-impact sprints with Ultimo and Benoit in '95 were a better environment for him and resulted in better matches. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest J*ingus Report post Posted October 20, 2002 Platypus: It was a blatant choke, one that anyone could see, and ended the match on a really lame note. The "he passes out in the hold" finish is the US version of the one-hour draw, and it's equally annoying. Plus, if they were going to do that finish, why didn't they have Jericho pass out "from the pain" of his shoulder that Benoit had worked over the entire match? But he didn't "pass out from the pain"; he passed out from oxygen deprivation due to being choked out, which is exactly what happens with a chokehold in real life. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted October 20, 2002 I know it was a choke, and that's why I disliked it even more. The refferee could plainly see that his it was a choke, and any sensible reff would have told Benoit to brake the hold. Had they at least done the "pass out from the pain" finish, it would have seemed sensible, if not contrived. Then again, when you book a finish like that, contrived is probably the best you can hope for, which is why I dislike the idea to begin with. Not the mention that match just borred me. Like I said, I think Jericho is much more well-suited to a fast-paced sprint, like the ones he had as a junior. Otherwise, he ends up gassed and starts blowing spots left and right. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Tim Cooke Report post Posted October 20, 2002 The Benoit v Jericho series from 2000-2001 is utter crap. The submission match makes me want to puke. It was typical WWE style with tearing one little body part away with the help of the ringpost, etc. This was the point where I really saw that Jericho was no good, especially when you get to work a full feud with Benoit. The 2/3 falls Summerslam match is even worse. Don't get me started on that. Tim Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted October 20, 2002 That one bothered me a whole lot. If you're going to book a 2/3 falls match, give it more than ten minutes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Agent of Oblivion Report post Posted October 21, 2002 That match was inexcusably short. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest AnnieEclectic Report post Posted October 22, 2002 Ricky: No, Joshi wasn't the topic, but it's essentially the "Joshi" side here arguing against the Jericho side. Either way, my point was "Hey everyone, stop being a Jackass". Nothing pisses me off more than people arguing on the net about something they have zero control over and even less chance of proving. Your opinion is yours, just because someone elses differ doesn't mean yours automatically negates it. -Annie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DragonflyKid Report post Posted October 22, 2002 I think the argument started with: Jericho is a lot more entertaing than most Joshi wrestlers there buddy. In NA promos are more important than actual wrestling, Jericho has had his share of ****+ promos. His WCW stuff was gold, his wrestling ability might have been overrated over the years but the entertainment he provided has been high. While in the WWE Jericho has been consistently a better wrestler than most WWE main eventers and has done good-to-great mic work depending on what the writers have given him. Plus he introduced the wrestling world to the phenomenon that was Ralphus, the wrestling world indeed hit it's peak on the shoulders of the legendary Ralphus. We can only hope that Ralphus eventually invades Japan; All-Japan, New Japan or NOAH can all benifit greatly with the long-anticipated arrival of the one and only Ralphus. Just think how Ralphus can shift the momentum on RAW, he alone can turn that utter crap of a show into can't miss stuff. Only Ralphus can put the Entertainment back into the WWE. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wolverine Report post Posted October 22, 2002 "In NA promos are more important than actual wrestling" Then why do they have wrestling matches on PPV's then? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DragonflyKid Report post Posted October 22, 2002 The PPV matches are climaxes to fueds but promos get one over more than wrestling ability. On a weekly basis wrestling matches set up storylines and promos are the basis of those storylines, these storylines then set up the PPV matchups but those matches are seen by only a small portion of the fans, getting one's character over is needed to make PPV matches worthy of shelling out $35.00 to see. In the current environment of SE a wrestler lives or dies for the most part on his mic ablility. If wrestling talent was more important then the Taker, Rock and HHH wouldn't be as successful as they are and guys like Tajiri who aren't given mic time would be over. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted October 22, 2002 Annie: As opposed to things we do have control over? What then? This is the puroresu folder, so until that changes, I think we should talk about puroresu. I don't really see how you can argue differently. As for promos being the all-important aspect, that's not neccesarilly so. Marketability is the key, and someone like Austin, who really wasn't that dependent on his microphone time, managed to be extremely marketable just by doing what everyone wanted him to do. Jericho's microphone work since coming to the WWE, in my opinion, has been pretty mediocre most often, with a few exceptions. Over the past year or so, especially, he's been terrible in every aspect. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jubuki Report post Posted October 22, 2002 Well, slap me around and call me Susan - there *is* one stupid, tired, and poorly-thought-out thread here where I haven't had to pull a Hansen on someone! A winner is this thread! I'd also like to apologize to the board at large, now that Jingus has put me in my place. I'm sorry for not buying into the usual U.S. mantra of anti-intellectualism; I've shown every hard-working wrestler in the world a measure of respect by doing what most haven't -- calling their industry an artform -- and now I just feel...silly because of it. Honestly, if all the American workers he knows are low-minded, thuggish, and uneducated, who am I to impress my ill-conceived notions of performance art upon them? I should toe the line, fall into step with everyone else, and cheer madly at any and all opportunities. And if his wrestler buddies are smarter than the average bear, why should I be so patronizing as to tell them what a good match is like? After all, they're the men busting their asses night in and night out, while I'm just a fan - once my money's in their coffers, I don't need to think. My only job is to yell incoherently for the next three hours, right? Right? This Kurt Vonnegut Moment has been brought to you by Play-Doh. Play-Doh: for when you need fake brains that are that *perfect* shade of grey... (EDIT: Whoops - there I go pulling a Hansen!) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Banky Report post Posted October 25, 2002 I liked Jericho/Guerrero from Fall Brawl 97. I don't know how to defend myself against people in here because they are all so vicious. So I'll just say I enjoyed that one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wolverine Report post Posted October 25, 2002 We all enjoy matches. I enjoyed Kanemoto vs. Samurai 6/5/97 when I first saw it. But that doesn't mean it's any good. I guess for some people, saying a match isn't **** constitutes not enjoying it, when in a lot of cases, it's the furthest thing from the truth. But it's an idea that some people have a hard time grasping. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Banky Report post Posted October 25, 2002 Wow, I didn't get devoured whole in the Puro folder for pimping a NA match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted October 25, 2002 What made you think that you would? I get just as annoyed with people trying to pimp Mutoh/Kawada as ***** as I do with people trying to do the same with Rock/HHH. The styles are night and day, but a bad match is a bad match. Either way, you're allowed to have your opinion. Haven't seen the match, but I never much cared for Jericho's WCW matches. Eddy's heel work in '97 was really fun, though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Banky Report post Posted October 25, 2002 What made you think that you would? I get just as annoyed with people trying to pimp Mutoh/Kawada as ***** as I do with people trying to do the same with Rock/HHH. The styles are night and day, but a bad match is a bad match. Either way, you're allowed to have your opinion. Haven't seen the match, but I never much cared for Jericho's WCW matches. Eddy's heel work in '97 was really fun, though. Jericho's whole part in the match was pretty bland, but Eddie's pyschology made the match memorable. He had the crowd breathing down his neck, yet still in awe when he disected Jericho. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted October 25, 2002 Sounds like I could just watch Rey/Eddy from Holloween Havok and not miss a thing. Rey kept up his end of the match perfectly, selling really well and hitting some mind-blowing offense. Still, I might check it out just to see how far '97 Eddy could carry Jericho. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Banky Report post Posted October 25, 2002 Sounds like I could just watch Rey/Eddy from Holloween Havok and not miss a thing. Rey kept up his end of the match perfectly, selling really well and hitting some mind-blowing offense. Still, I might check it out just to see how far '97 Eddy could carry Jericho. Jericho didn't have the mind blowing offense though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
