Chono vs. Chyna PART 2

[Guest Black Tiger]

After Chono kicked in Chyna's face yesterday, they're fighting again. Sometime next month its Chono/Tenzan vs. Chyna/MUTA for the IWGP Tag Titles.

 

The show before that has Chono vs. Nagata for the IWGP Title.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

This could have easily gone into the "Happy Day" thread, this is like the 4th Chyna thread in the last month or two.

[Guest J*ingus]

Am I the only one who thinks the MUTA bullshit is a bigger disgrace than Laurer is?

[Guest DragonflyKid]

No, I think Laurer is a much bigger disgrace.

 

Laurer is a bad wrestler, her place should be only in a women's promotion. The only thing that she would be qualified to do with her limited wrestling talent and her size is be a monster. I don't even think she can pull that off, well at least not approaching the level of Aja Kong. She cannot be a monster in a male promotion so she is left with little talent or credibility fighting males. She's a novelty ridiculously being put in with talented male wrestlers as if it were supposed to be taken seriously.

 

The new version of Muta is at least reasonable. It's not like NJ is promoting MUTA as being the original, Tiger Mask has had many versions, as long as MUTA is at least decent I don't see a problem with it.

[Guest cynicalprofit]

If im wrong, well im wrong, but did they stipulate that if chyna lost she was banned from wrestling in japan again?

 

MUTA vs Chyna on the disgrace scale...hummm..

Since the original muto is still wrestling, Id call that a bigger slap in the face and a bigger disgrace because while chyna sucks and all that, shes not pissing on anyones legacy. And Muto fucking rules, but Im a bit biased towards him.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

cynicalprofit Posted on Oct 15 2002, 02:49 PM

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If im wrong, well im wrong, but did they stipulate that if chyna lost she was banned from wrestling in japan again?

 

MUTA vs Chyna on the disgrace scale...hummm..

Since the original muto is still wrestling, Id call that a bigger slap in the face and a bigger disgrace because while chyna sucks and all that, shes not pissing on anyones legacy. And Muto fucking rules, but Im a bit biased towards him.  

 

I think that was the stipulation but Chono said Chyna proved herself or something.

 

I disliked the original Muta so maybe I'm biased also.

 

Mutoh did leave on bad terms so I can see why NJ would piss on his legacy. I believe that pissing on his legacy might be a small part of the case why the brought in MUTA, but I believe they are just trying to create interest anyway they can, a new Muta does that.

[Guest J*ingus]

Two things:

 

1. I don't have a problem with mixd-gender matches, and I don't understand why anyone else does. Anyone care to explain why it's bad? (And don't give me the "men are stronger" bullshit, there are plenty of fearsome gals out there who are probably stronger than me and you combined.) As for Laurer's talent, well, this is the same company which keeps Giant Singh, Naoyo Ogawa, and Scott Norton employed, and had Yasuda as their friggin' champion.

 

2. The new MUTA looks absolutely ridiculous, like a freakin' peacock, does few-to-none of the old Muta's moves, and is in no way connected to the original character other than the name. It's the exact same thing that the WWF and WCW used to do to each other with characters like the Renegade and "Nature Boy" Buddy Landell. There's no point to it. And if the guy under the suit is a good worker, why burden him with the lame gimmick?

[Guest RickyChosyu]

In general, the women usually work a different style than the men, so often times they're a bad fit for eachother on that principle alone. Then you often get the "can't hit a women" psychology that seems to plague them and they end up as worthless comedy. Whether or not the women are actually weaker doesn't matter, because the women are usually booked to look weaker regardless, unless it's the Chyna angle, where the opposite is true. It's stupid and contrived either way. There have never been any worth seeing for a reason, you know.

 

And I don't think it really matters whether Muta or Chyna is the worse disgrace. Mutoh has already spit on his own legacy more than New Japan ever could, so making fun of him is a bit pointless, especially when the imitation looks so ridiculous. Chyna is an embarisment, but it's not like NJ is the first company to try and market her this way, and I don't think Chono is quite the ace of the promotion, either (and if he is, that's a far bigger problem right there).

[Guest cynicalprofit]

Hey the transformation from Muta to Muto is amazing, its like a totally different guy, thats talent. Hogan couldnt and didnt do it when the time was right. nWo Hogan in B&W is the same as Hogan R&Y, he just cut heel promos, but same move set. Muto is a better worker then Muta, that right there says enough.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

One hits people with chairs and lies around bleeding for the rest of the match, one wrestles. That's not talent, that's giving a damn.

 

Being a better wrestler than Muta says something? That certainly says something about half the damn planet, then.

[Guest cynicalprofit]

Being a better wrestler than Muta says something? That certainly says something about half the damn planet, then.

 

I think you misunderstood me. When he was Muta, he didnt give a crap more then half the time, I mean his WCW stuff was HORRID. But then, he reinvented himself, changed his style, gave a damn, and has constently busted his ass off. I think he's had more ****+ matches in the last 2 or 3 years, then the previous 10, and hes over 40 now! State side guys over 40 don't usually and are lucky to hit *** work tops.

 

Muto found his love for the art again, Im happy.

[Guest TheHulkster]

Mutoh pretty much started the gimmick (well, the Great Kabuki did, but Mutoh tweaked it a lot and made it his own with Kabuki's blessing) and had it for over 10 years, making it into one of the most popular characters in Japanese wrestling history. Now they just bring in a guy in a goofy outfit and call him the Great MUTA after Mutoh leaves? If the called him the Great something else, it would be one thing, but the Great MUTA? I'd put that up there on the disgraceful scale.

[Guest Black Tiger]

MUTA has only had one match, before everyone jumps down his throat about being a bad worker, give him a chance to show off what he can do.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

Mutoh sucks, he hasn't had one **** match in the last 2 or 3 years. Muta USA has Kabuki's blessing as well, Kabuki joined him at ringside for his match aganist Tenzan. Mutoh has NEVER given a damn, he's always been lazy, and is only popular because of his gimmick(s).

 

That's the facts folks.

 

Also, Black Tiger is right, I reserve opinion on Muta USA until I've seen the match.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Mutoh has had one match that approaches **** in the last few years, and that's vs. Tenryu 2001. Everything else has ranged from decent to mediocre to horrible, with more emphasis on that latter durring this year. Mutoh had some great matches at various points in his career that are substantially better than his recent work.

[Guest deadbeater]

Um, I thought this was about Chyna.

[Guest cynicalprofit]

Man you have no grasp on muto's move set.

He either stikes their arm to prevent a counter hit, their leg to get them into the right position for the Shining Wizard, or their head, which is where the knockout blow is delivered by the knee. That is psychology in a moveset. It all builds to the shining wizard. His stuff with lyger was ****, the Kwanda match was ****+, the guys old and he's busting his ass off. They dont do that in America.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

If that was directed at me:

 

What the hell are you talking about? Attacking the leg for twenty minutes and forgetting about it is psychogy, alright, it's bad psychology. Lying around on mat isn't busting your ass, it's being lazy. Watch him defend the Triple Crown against Fujinami and try to tell me he's working hard. He had all of a few good matches (vs. Tenryu being the best) and then went back to being a lazy, worthless slug afterwards. Watch him drag down six mans with his sheer unwillingness to work. Watch him shit on fourty minutes of offense with his no-selling. His work with Lyger was mediocre at best, and while his first match with Kawada was ok (***ish), the second was an abomination and one of the worst matches I'll ever see in my lifetime, no doubt.

 

vs. Chono G1 finals '91

vs. Hashimoto G1 league

 

Much better than anything he's done lately, and there's a host of other stuff that's better from those respective time periods. Oh, and they never work in America, do they? Stupid Benoit, learn the ways of Keji and Puroresu love~!~!

[Guest Goodear]

I've never understood the philosophy that Mutoh has to attack the legs extensivelty to set up the shining wizard. It's not as though its such an intricate manuever that it requires the person taking it to be unable to move for an extended period of time. It's a strike that takes no time at all to deliver. Putting someone in a figure four for 5 minutes doesn't seem like a reasonable way to set up a knee to the head, considering you could do the same thing with just a boot to the chest.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

The idea behind it is that the guy's knee gives out, leaving him open for the Wizard. Of course, that never stops Mutoh from slapping on an arm-breaker to kill time, or just going into high spots for lack of anything better to do. The idea behind a forty-minute match where both guys work the legs heavilly may sound deep, but if neither guy is going to sell anything, why the fuck bother?

 

Boo to vapid "psychology" and boo to embarisments like Mutoh.

[Guest wolverine]

I think calling Kawada-Mutoh 4/01 ***ish is giving it far too much credit.

 

Misawa/Kobashi vs. Kawada/Taue 1/24/95 is ***ish; Kawada-Mutoh is just plain crap.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I'll admit to being a Kawada mark just as much as anyone, so I might have overrated it in that regard. And to Mutoh's credit, he didn't do anything terribly stupid to kill the match (like he's done in plenty of other matches) so I guess it could viewed as one of his better performances from last year, whatever that's worth.

[Guest cynicalprofit]

Is a slow build to hitting the Shining Wizard, the arm work is so their arm hurts to much to block him as he's running toward them. Its psychology to me, work the guy over to hit your finisher, where as in america its, hit the finisher out of the blue, 50/50 chance itll pin the guy or not.

 

The leg work setups up the shining wizard, dragon screws, that one leg submission(dont know its name, its like a 1 leg figure 4), are used to weaken the guy so he cant stand. And look at it this way, the selling is perfect because why would a guy stay dropped on his knees unless he was beat to that point considering what Muto's finisher is. Its a realistic idea. Works fine for me.

 

it never worked before, but teh art of wrestling is changing and I can see the japan heavy style is gonna be the next phase as guys like Benoit ARE maineventing.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

And how often does it actually work that way? How often does he stay focused enough to make any of his wear-down attacks work? And what do you mean by "the selling is fine"? Do you plan on continually throwing statements out there without ever sighting a match as an example? Vs. Kawada it was supposed to be the arm that lead to Mutoh hitting the move, but Kawada barely sold it at the end, so that's a wash. Vs. Tenryu, he hit the move without any leg work at the begining, and he ended up winning with the moonsault anyway, so that's no-go, either. Then there's the Hase debacle which saw neither guy sell anything and kill the entire point of working a limb in the first place, because it never went anywhere.

 

For all the praise you give it, I've never seen Mutoh's psyche actually achieve anything accept kill time. Vs. Tenryu worked because the Wizard was used more as a "comes out of no-where" finish, and Tenryu sold it well, but in most cases it's just repetative filler that serves no purpose.

 

And Japan heavies are going to change because Benoit is main eventing? Eh, might want to re-think that one.

[Guest cynicalprofit]

Think of the pyschology this way, why would you sell it unless it really hurts, which is the idea behind the shinning wizard psychology buildup, so no selling, strangely works in his matches, because if you no sell the injuries, its saying the guys not weak enough to hit a finisher on. I dont quote matches cause I dont study tapes all day and dont super duper care about dates, I just know what I think is good and what I think is bad. I see Muto working over legs, arms and heads, which all build to the finisher.

 

Its my opinion, you think he sucks, I think he rules.

 

I never said they were gonna change, all im saying is, in america the japan style CAN and DOES get over.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

You don't have anything to support anything you say. Your arguement is just words on the screen. It's nothing.

 

You don't have to study anything, you have to know what you're talking about. People who have nothing to support their arguements generally don't know what they're talking about.

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

Since when does Benoit wrestle the "NJPW Heavyweight Style". Last time I checked he wrestled juniors matches in Japan.

[Guest cynicalprofit]

NJPW Heavey style, is all about pyschology and isnt that what Benoit brings to the table 90% of the time?

 

Muto vs Lyger(in half costume)

Muto works over the head, with headlocks, legs, with a dragonscrew and one leg submission, lyger goes after muto's leg, muto sells the leg as being hurt, a top rope hurracaranna, makes no sense, niether does the 5*, but the moonsault onto the knees does, hell muto loses the suplex battle because his knee goes out, dragonscrew and move leg work by lyger, they exchange rolling kicks, then BAM, SW, Lyger never saw it comming. Ok it wasnt as good as my original pimp ***.

There match backup.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

*holds head in hands*

 

Get out, go on, just fuck off home.

 

"Muto works over the head, with headlocks..."

 

Riiiiiiight, so he filled time with lazy rest holds, like he does in every single match he's been a part of in the last two years.

 

" ...legs, with a dragonscrew and one leg submission..."

 

Sounds like really extensive leg work...

 

" ...lyger goes after muto's leg, muto sells the leg as being hurt, a top rope hurracaranna, makes no sense, niether does the 5*, but the moonsault onto the knees does..."

 

What a joke. How does a top rope 'rana, or a frog splash, not making sense prove your point? Why does the moonsault to the knees make sense? By this point, according to you, both men's knees are injured, so whoever did the moonsault is no selling his injury by performing high flying moves. Moron.

 

"hell muto loses the suplex battle because his knee goes out"

 

So Mutoh loses a suplex battle. How can this be due to legwork when a suplex lifts people off their legs?!

 

"dragonscrew and move leg work by lyger, they exchange rolling kicks, then BAM, SW, Lyger never saw it comming"

 

So Lyger works the leg, fair enough, but then Mutoh hits the shining wizard? A move in which he uses his leg to leap off Lyger's knee and hit Lyger's head with his knee? So he uses a move which requires no less than three 'injured' limbs to work perfectly with each other, not blow out, and to retain all strength that they had at the beginning of the match? THAT IS NOT GOOD PSYCH! YOUR POINT IS BULLSHIT! FUCK OFF!

 

And another thing, while we're at it, puroresu has nothing to do with the current situation in the WWE! Why are you talking about Chris Benoit?! Why are you referring to frog splashes as 'the 5*'?! You clearly know nothing about puro, so fuck off, and come back when you have gotten yourself a clue.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

The NJ heavy style is just as much about psychology as any heavyweight style, no more, no less. Every style has some kind of psyche, it just varries on whether or not it produces good stories.

 

Aside from the one match with Tenzan and a few mixings with the heavies in the mid-ninties, Benoit never worked an NJPW heavies match, so I doubt his ring-work is based around that.

 

Just watch Mutoh's stuff with Chono in '91, or Hash in '95. Each spot builds to the next one logically, there are never any slow moments, and the fire and tenacity Mutoh brings to the table is greater than anything he's done in the last few years combined. Vs. Tenryu was an example of Mutoh taking his repetative style to it's limit, but Tenryu made the match, not him. Tenryu knew to lay out the groundwork by selling the Wizard as a quick KO, and show great fear of the moonsault. He knew that he had to at least keep the leg work in the back of the fan's minds if it was going to benafit the match, which he did. He also busted out all the crazy spots he could muster, showing that he feared Mutoh and had to use everything he had to win. Tenryu took Mutoh's scatter-shot offense and made it work.

 

Good psyche isn't just working a limb, it's hitting your moves at the right time and telling a story with what you do. Mutoh can work the leg as much as he wants, but the only story he ever tells is "Mutoh works the leg a bunch to set up his finisher" with often-horrible execution and no depth. Bad psyche.