Chono vs. Chyna PART 2

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"Every style has some kind of psyche, it just varries on whether or not it produces good stories."

 

Yup and this is something that some people will never be able to grasp. The key being the stories, which involves the moves, etc.

 

That is why the WEEEEEEEEEE will always have so much trouble developing *effective* stories.

 

Tim

[Guest wolverine]

Just wanted to add that, "Can You Top This" (circa 98-99 AJ) is NOT effective storytelling. Hell, it's not even storytelling, it's just stupid.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

I've never really been a big fan of limb working, since most of the time it's just a way to kill time and eat up the clock. Half the damn time it doesn't even further the match, since the work is no sold when the guy's on offense.

 

I also don't understand the shitty 20 minutes of limb work to set up a submission. That has to be pretty weak submission hold if you half to rip the guy's damn leg or arm off to get the submission. And most of the time it doesn't even work, since the guy lay around in the hold for 5 minutes before making the ropes.

 

I think it's much more entertaining to watch the Takada UWFi submission stuff, where the point is to actually lock on the hold, not how much limb working he's done to set it up.

 

I do like some limb working if it's sold effectivelly to limit a guys offense, like in the 12/93 Misawa/Kobashi vs. Kawada/Taue. Kawada's leg was injured to the point he couldn't hit any of his trademark moves, and if he did he was in too much pain to capitalize. This lead to Kawada's demise very quickly in the match. Now that's effective limb working.

 

Basically what I'am saying is that limb working doesn't equal psychology, sometimes it does but most of the time its like "we got 20 minutes to kill, lets work a limb." Some people can find bizzare hidding meaning to it, like those very creative posts I read for the RVD/Eddy Ladder match or the Mutoh Shining Wizard setup, but most of the time it's guys eating the clock in a very boring fashion.

[Guest cynicalprofit]

*holds head in hands*

Get out, go on, just fuck off home.

Im glad to know your so superior since ive seen less then 30 hours of puro total, im not saying im an expert, im giving my opinion, so FUCK OFF! Im hear to learn about this stuff anyways, why else would I post here? Ive obviously got some interest in puro or else I wouldnt be dling matches all the time and wouldnt be spending money on it.

 

"Muto works over the head, with headlocks..."

Riiiiiiight, so he filled time with lazy rest holds, like he does in every single match he's been a part of in the last two years.

Ok the rest hold is a stall for time and a bit of a lazy move, but what other move applies direct pressure to the head like a headlock and doesnt look lazy, it works for the buildup to the SW.

 

" ...legs, with a dragonscrew and one leg submission..."

Sounds like really extensive leg work...

I summerized quickly, its not all SK in detail. Im saying he worked over the leg.

 

" ...lyger goes after muto's leg, muto sells the leg as being hurt, a top rope hurracaranna, makes no sense, niether does the 5*, but the moonsault onto the knees does..."

What a joke. How does a top rope 'rana, or a frog splash, not making sense prove your point? Why does the moonsault to the knees make sense? By this point, according to you, both men's knees are injured, so whoever did the moonsault is no selling his injury by performing high flying moves. Moron.

 

It doesnt prove my point, there I was talking about how if lyger was going after mutos knees, why the hell do a TRR or a 5*S, neither hurts the leg or knees of the guy being hit. The moonsault HIT the knees, so THAT made sense with lyger working on them. Sometime you have to suspend reality for a minute in wretsling, its not real you know. And secondly even if your knees are hurt, it doesnt mean you CANT do a moonsault, now if lyger had been selling it as if he couldnt walk and THEN busted out the highflying shit, that would have been stupid, by lyger wasnt selling the leg because Muto hadnt done enough damdge to it to set up the SW.

 

"hell muto loses the suplex battle because his knee goes out"

So Mutoh loses a suplex battle. How can this be due to legwork when a suplex lifts people off their legs?!

He lost the suplex battle because his leg slid back after being hurt from lygers working on it, he lost the battle when the leg gave out and lyger suplexed him.

 

"dragonscrew and move leg work by lyger, they exchange rolling kicks, then BAM, SW, Lyger never saw it comming"

So Lyger works the leg, fair enough, but then Mutoh hits the shining wizard? A move in which he uses his leg to leap off Lyger's knee and hit Lyger's head with his knee? So he uses a move which requires no less than three 'injured' limbs to work perfectly with each other, not blow out, and to retain all strength that they had at the beginning of the match? THAT IS NOT GOOD PSYCH! YOUR POINT IS BULLSHIT! FUCK OFF!

You have to remmeber the point of muto's whole style, he cant do the SW untill the guy is to the point where he can hit the SW. The same level applies to him. Sure his knee is hurt, but hes got just enough umph to hit the SW, and if that hadnt been enough, and his timing wasnt perfect, good night muto, you lose. Its not perfect, but I enjoy it. And remember with out working the head, the SW wouldnt have been enough, if he didnt work the knee, the guy wouldt stay down. I admit the rolling kicks was just their for filler, but I like the idea of them busting it out, right before the finish, cause doesnt muto normal bust it out right before the SW, like the 5MoD. And the SW doesnt require a ton of strenght to do, its a jump, even with bad knees, its a short jump and it doesnt require all teh strenght in the world to do, which is what makes it effective.

 

And another thing, while we're at it, puroresu has nothing to do with the current situation in the WWE! Why are you talking about Chris Benoit?! Why are you referring to frog splashes as 'the 5*'?! You clearly know nothing about puro, so fuck off, and come back when you have gotten yourself a clue.

 

Im not a move expert and since the BBOM is apparently wrong in numerous cases, theres no real manual to study. Isnt 5* in and out with the arms, where frog splash is one continus arm leg postion? It looked to me that Lyger went in and then out with his arms and legs.

 

My point of puro and wwe is that puro is the next stage in american wrestling, the whole buildup to a finsher and the slow style of building up to the finsher. Benoit and Angle seem to have the best grasp on this idea and will probably be the next guys to hold glass ceiling over other ppl because they'll have one of the 4 slots.

I mean benoit's been ready for years and hes still over and he works a more stiff based, mat style that he learned in japan as far as i understand it.

 

Im not a puro expert, give me some fucking slack. I tried to explain it the best I know how, and since most puro fans are all perfectionist and wont help anyone out, and usualy scare off anyone who'd dare come near their wrestling, I only know so much. I'm honestly intrested, but with ppl always telling you to fuck off about THEIR wrestling, cause "you obviously know nothing and therefore we're not gonna help you out at all",you wonder why so many ppl walk away from it.

 

Ok, but isnt japan all about psychology, where as in usa its all about spot, then spot, then spot. I mean I dont see much build up with what the undertaker or test do.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Benoit and Angle had one match where they diverged from the normal "WWE style" which, naturally, ended up blowing away pretty much everything the promotion has done this year.

 

I've already said this, but just again, all wrestling has psychology. The varriable is whether or not that psychology is affective. Even Mutoh/Kawada 2/24/02 had psychology. The difference between that, and say, EVERY OTHER MATCH KAWADA HAS BEEN IN, is that Tosh's psyche is usually brilliant, while the psyche in Mutoh/Kawada was just inexscusably horrid.

 

If you want to complain about lack of respect from your fellow peers, don't kick things off with "You obviously don't have any grasp on Mutoh's offense" which is not only disrespectfull, but an unfare statement, considering I stated my opinion on Keji's offense and gave examples to justify my points. To use an old cliche, you have to give before you can receive.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Aside from the one match with Tenzan and a few mixings with the heavies in the mid-ninties, Benoit never worked an NJPW heavies match

Is that Tenzan/Benoit match worth tracking down? I've never seen, nor heard of it.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

It took place at the 1/4/00 Dome Show. Benoit hadn't worked Japan in years, and they weren't fooling anyone with this match, especially because he was a junior. He gets Tenzan over pretty well by stiffing the hell out of him, but there's no depth beyond the hard strikes, just like most of the other "worthwhile" matches on the card. As for the stuff that isn't worthwhile, well, just fast-forward and leave it at that.

[Guest cynicalprofit]

Well in my opinion ppl look at muto's offense wrong and then think its totaly crappy.

 

PS, I respect you Ricky, you're one of the first not to go psycho on a newbie.