'why is X album better than Y by same artist?'

[Guest godthedog]

i really just want to know why everybody here seems to think 'doolittle' is a better pixies album than 'surfer rosa'. 'surfer rosa' always seemed to me more energetic, the songs overall have better hooks, it's funnier, and it rocks harder. plus it utilizes that double vocals kim gordon/frank black dynamic better.

 

but that topic isn't really worthy of its own thread. so, since there tends to be lots of discussion about "which _____ album is better" (especially about the beatles), i thought i'd make it into a more broad topic for others to add their own disputes on different artists.

 

but first: why IS 'doolittle' better than 'surfer rosa'?

 

so, fire away. add your own "why is X better than Y" questions if you like.

[Guest Edwin MacPhisto]

I can't think of any x over y's of my own presently, so I'll go with the question posed. Doolittle and Surfer Rosa are pretty close in my personal pantheon, but I give the edge to Doolittle. I prefer it because although I love the rawness of the Pixies, I think they work best with a little bit of polish. There's also more variety in the sound; to go from "Monkey Gone to Heaven" to "Mr. Grieves" to "Crackity Jones" in the span of 3 songs is pretty spiffy.

 

In the end, I think it's that Doolittle keeps me on my toes every time I listen to it, while Surfer Rosa, while excruciatingly kick-ass, always seems a little too familiar. I also think it drops off a bit towards the end--the last four songs all muddle together for me. Though really, the "you fuckin' die" bit kind of saves the whole affair.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

I think I'm also in the minority when I say that Lateralus is the best Tool album. Better flow, more technicality, top notch production, better songs. Namely parabol/parabola, and disposition/reflection/triad. It has some good stand alone stuff too, though. Lateralus and Ticks and Leeches come to mind.

[Guest Incandenza]

I agree with Edwin about Doolittle and Surfer Rosa. Except for "Tony's Theme" and the "you fuckin' die" bit, nothing about Rosa's second half sticks out for me. Doolittle is far more consistent, though I'll admit that "Gigantic" and "Where is My Mind" surpass anything on that one.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I like In Utero better than Nevermind, and I don't know many others that do...

[Guest Edwin MacPhisto]

I like In Utero better than Nevermind, and I don't know many others that do...

I think that's actually not as unlikely as you think. I think the songwriting's stronger, and although the mid-end of the album is a bit weak, I really like the rough-as-hell touch Steve Albini lent to it.

 

(From Pixies with Albini to Nirvana with Albini...FULL CIRCLE~!)

 

I think most of the Nevermind over In Utero conception comes from value of each album's influence. Nevermind really kick-started grunge and was monumentally important to the evolving sound of music, and by the time In Utero came out, crunch and sarcastic angst were already the standards thanks to the major label debut.

[Guest Incandenza]

Radiohead:

 

The Bends > OK Computer

 

While the latter is good--as well as the more linear of the two--the individual moments of the former win out. "High and Dry," "Bones," "Just," "My Iron Lung," and the title track (especially the title track) are superior to anything on OK Computer, with the exception of "Paranoid Android."

[Guest redbaron51]

There are a lot of albums to me that seem better than what most people think.

 

Some come in mind like

 

Animals > The Wall, Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here, etc...

 

Zeppelin 2 > Zeppelin 4.

 

etc...

[Guest godthedog]

I like In Utero better than Nevermind, and I don't know many others that do...

actually, that's the majority opinion on this board i believe. including myself.

 

here's the tough one: which BEATLES album is the best?

[Guest Edwin MacPhisto]

here's the tough one: which BEATLES album is the best?

Hoo daddy. I'll have fun with this one.

 

Anything from Rubber Soul on could be considered. My choice, however, is Abbey Road.

 

The pros for Abbey Road:

--Superb balance of songwriting and instrumentation; the last album the Beatles recorded, and the pinnacle of their fusion of the two. At this point they'd tried everything, and this was them putting that all together in the best way possible.

--The lowest point, in my eyes, is "Maxwell's Silver Hammer," which is still amazingly charming and one of their best light songs. No bad songs, period, on this record.

--The second half of the album, the finale suite. In my opinion, the best extended moment in music history.

 

A couple cons for the other bigtime contenders:

 

Sgt Pepper's - The murderous middle of "Being For The Benefit of Mr. Kite" and "Within You Without You." Decent, but dangerously dulling. Ringo's best vocal performance and superb songs, but the album is a tad front heavy. While "When I'm Sixty-Four" and "Good Morning" are charming and fun, they're not nearly as strong as the stuff on the first half, or the closer "A Day in the Life."

 

The White Album - Probably my #2: sprawling, wild, experimental. Feels like a long day in the studio with the band, with everyone trying out their owns things. Unfortunately, with all the experimentation comes some failures that just don't have enough charm: "I Will" and "Don't Pass Me By" are your main offenders, and although "Revolution 9" is a nice sound collage, you won't listen to it more than twice unless you're high. "Back in the USSR" to "Dear Prudence," though...what a way to start.

 

Rubber Soul - Great stuff, but just not as focused or developed as how far they'd go within 5 more years. Doesn't really...flow, I suppose?

 

Revolver - Masterful and great, but like Rubber Soul, feels just like a collection of songs rather than a full, flowing album. Still amazing, but Abbey Road has songs that hold up and a more cohesive fill.

 

Magical Mystery Tour - From "I Am The Walrus" on it's absolutely stellar, but the first half of the album is pretty much just satisfactory except for "Fool on the Hill."

 

Let It Be - Overproduced (I'll see you in hell, Spector!) and dragged down by the substandard "One After 909." "The Long And Winding Road" just hurts me with all those overdubs and junk.

 

Of course, even "satisfactory" moments on Beatles' records tend to be pretty frickin' great. In the end, Abbey Road has the most upsides and the fewest downsides, and is my pick for #1.

 

Now, here's my question: the Beatles album that almost always tops reader polls, reviewer polls, and really any kind of poll about music, is Revolver. Why do you think that is?

[Guest godthedog]

Now, here's my question: the Beatles album that almost always tops reader polls, reviewer polls, and really any kind of poll about music, is Revolver. Why do you think that is?

 

we're just going through a change in judgment of music, like "the greatest film of all time" going from 'the bicycle thief' to 'citizen kane' in 1962. up until a few years ago, and for the last 30 years plus, 'pepper' was the album unanimously voted best. 'revolver' is just as musically inventive (except the concept album thing), & the songs are better.

 

i'll post my own judgments of beatles albums later, i got a short story to finish for tomorrow.

 

EDIT: story's done, so here i come.

 

in my opinion, it all comes down to 'revolver', 'sgt pepper', 'the white album' and 'abbey road'. the other post-'help' albums are great, but the 4 i just mentioned are what i consider to be the big boys. 'rubber soul' ALMOST makes it, but the songs are too slight and the sound isn't mature enough.

 

'revolver': couple of slight songs (i don't like 'and your bird can sing' or 'yellow submarine' as much as the rest), but nothing that could remotely be considered bad or even mediocre. it also holds together very well as a whole for just a collection of songs, with several techniques recurring (twangy guitars, backward tape loops, etc). as flawless as a collection of songs can possibly be.

 

'sgt pepper': too much fun in the studio makes for some subpar songwriting. sounds fluid as a whole (and was the album to really open up what a record as a whole could be), & has the best finale EVER. but stuff like 'getting better' and 'fixing a whole' is pretty forgettable and as indivudual songs, aren't very good. and 'she's leaving home' is just...so...cheesy...

 

'white album': all over the place, in the best way. the variety is incredible, and at least half the songs are great. side 3 is my favorite, alternating between great rock songs and quiet pop songs. but the way they organized it, it just kinda peters off after side 3. after 'revolution 1', 'honey pie', 'savoy truffle', 'cry baby cry' AND 'revolution 9', you're pretty underwhelmed & you don't want it to keep going. really hurts the overall flow of the album.

 

'abbey road': side 1 is full of great songs, every track is on par with almost any track they've done before. great use of the studio too, at least as good as 'sgt pepper', and the songwriting doesn't suffer. then on side 2 they do something they've never done before and STILL have great songs. the weaker tracks ('sun king', 'mean mr mustard') don't hurt the album at all because of the way they're incorporated, and the great tracks just make it that much better. the way they seamlessly string melodies, half-songs, tunes, and even single lines is something to behold. my only dispute: the finale is a bit too lush and cheesy, & doesn't really blow you away like 'a day in the life' does. that's the only way it could've been any better.

 

so, 'abbey road' is my favorite beatles album, favorite album, favorite piece of art in any medium period.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

There are a lot of albums to me that seem better than what most people think.

 

Some come in mind like

 

Animals > The Wall, Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here, etc...

 

Zeppelin 2 > Zeppelin 4.

 

etc...

I agree with that COMPLETELY.

 

But Meddle is better than Animals, and Zep 1 is better than Zep 2, IMO.

[Guest Vitamin X]

I like In Utero better than Nevermind, and I don't know many others that do...

I personally like Bleach better than both of those, Cobain was a better singer then and kind of deteoriated between that album and future ones, except for the Unplugged one.

 

 

I'm sure some people might want to know which album I like better, Toxicity or System of a Down...

 

I'm extremely hard-pressed to put one over the other, as I put both albums just above everything else I've heard, but I mgiht give the slight nod to Toxicity, as I think you can listen to that album the whoel way through and was produced EXTREMELY well, PLUS Toxicity I believe has better songs (that have been massively overplayed on the radio, but nonetheless..) than the self-titled album, but the awesome song count is pretty much the same for the first 10 tracks..there is one shitty song in each othe first ten tracks (Jet Pilot on Toxicity, and Mind on System), but the quality goes down on System on tracks 10-13 (the only good song being P.L.U.C.K., Track 13) while Toxicity has only Shimmy that is average at best, whereas Psycho, Toxicity, and AERIALS~! rock. Not to mention MOTHERFUCKIN ARTO~!

[Guest Harry Hood]

There are a lot of albums to me that seem better than what most people think.

 

Some come in mind like

 

Animals > The Wall, Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here, etc...

 

Zeppelin 2 > Zeppelin 4.

 

etc...

I agree with that COMPLETELY.

 

But Meddle is better than Animals, and Zep 1 is better than Zep 2, IMO.

Holy Shit!!!

Someone else who thinks that Meddle is the best PF album...that's breathtaking...Then again I also think that ASOS and OBC > The Wall but that's just my cynical side taking out my anger on Roger Waters.

 

And Zeppelin 3> Zeppelin 1,2,4

 

Also: White Album> Beatles other albums althoough I don't know why, I just like it more

 

Yes: Going for the One> Fragile but not by much

 

DMB: Crash> Other albums but this may be common opinion

 

Phish: Rift> Other albums

[Guest LooseCannon]

Doolittle is far more consistent, though I'll admit that "Gigantic" and "Where is My Mind" surpass anything on that one.

What the F dude? "Debaser," "Hey," and "Gouge Away" are at least as good as "Where is My Mind" and "Gigantic." And "Wave of Mutilation" is arguably the best Pixies track ever.

 

Anyway, everyone else has pretty much covered this topic already so I won't go over the Doolittle vs Surfer Rosa ground again.

 

but how about, why is Surfer Rosa better than Bossanova? Which is almost universally considered the worst Pixies album. Sure, it's a little more sissyish with the mid-tempo poppiness, but I tend to enjoy the more melodic approach to this album than the punkiness of Surfer Rosa , which I generally get bored with once "Where is my mind" concludes. Admittedly, the tail end of Bossanova isn't that strong either, but I've always felt that song-for-song, it surpassed Surfer Rosa.

[Guest Kinetic]

I dislike much of Bossanova because it's fairly dull. The first two tracks are nothing in particular and that's a terrible way to start any album, obviously. "Velouria" is a fantastic song--one of my favorites from them--but they follow it up with a throw-away pop-punk track like "Allison" and all momentum is lost. I've never understood why people like "Is She Weird?", either. It doesn't do anything for me. Then there's "Digging For Fire," their attempt at recreating "Here Comes Your Man" that falls ridiculously short and results in probably the worst Pixies song ever. Everything beyond that is fine, though, as it settles into a very hypnotic groove that's unlike anything they'd done before. I do agree that Surfer Rosa is a tad overrated, though. I don't find a few of the songs particularly entertaining, while Doolittle is good from start to finish.

 

Doolittle > Surfer Rosa > Trompe Le Monde > Bossanova

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Holy Shit!!!

Someone else who thinks that Meddle is the best PF album...that's breathtaking...

Definitely. It shows amazing range, and all the songs still manage to work with each other. One of these Days is a heavy motherfucker for the genre and the time, and it's beyond me why I've never heard anyone cover it. It totally gets in a groove right after that, and culminates in Echoes, which is just a fucking masterpiece of music, and easily Floyd's best, IMO.

 

Obscured By Clouds and Relics round out my three favorite PF albums.

[Guest LooseCannon]

I dislike much of Bossanova because it's fairly dull. The first two tracks are nothing in particular and that's a terrible way to start any album, obviously. "Velouria" is a fantastic song--one of my favorites from them--but they follow it up with a throw-away pop-punk track like "Allison" and all momentum is lost. I've never understood why people like "Is She Weird?", either. It doesn't do anything for me. Then there's "Digging For Fire," their attempt at recreating "Here Comes Your Man" that falls ridiculously short and results in probably the worst Pixies song ever. Everything beyond that is fine, though, as it settles into a very hypnotic groove that's unlike anything they'd done before. I do agree that Surfer Rosa is a tad overrated, though. I don't find a few of the songs particularly entertaining, while Doolittle is good from start to finish.

 

Doolittle > Surfer Rosa > Trompe Le Monde > Bossanova

You're the second person to tell me "Digging for fire" is one of the worst Pixies songs ever. Damned if I can understand it, but I guess I might be wrong. Doolittle is indeed good from start to finish, except I could do without "Silver." I'd switch Bossanova's and Surfer Rosa's positions in that chart you made. Though, I would say your failure to understand one's affinity for "Is she weird" reveals an astonishing flaw in your character and is a serious indictment of you as a human being.

[Guest Kinetic]

Ha! You're probably right, but I can't hear it without the word "plodding" coming to mind. Just one man's astonishingly flawed opinion, though.

[Guest Incandenza]

Doolittle is far more consistent, though I'll admit that "Gigantic" and "Where is My Mind" surpass anything on that one.

What the F dude? "Debaser," "Hey," and "Gouge Away" are at least as good as "Where is My Mind" and "Gigantic." And "Wave of Mutilation" is arguably the best Pixies track ever.

I spoke without thinking. On reconsideration, I'd say those two songs from Surfer Rosa at least equal the very best moments--of which there are plenty--on Doolittle.

[Guest LooseCannon]

I spoke without thinking. On reconsideration, I'd say those two songs from Surfer Rosa at least equal the very best moments--of which there are plenty--on Doolittle.

That's a sentiment I can agree with as a general matter. I think there's a stronger case for "Where is my mind?" which I consider one of the best songs in the entire Pixies catalogue than for "Gigantic," which is one of the best songs on Surfer Rosa, but not that strong compared to the best songs off of the other albums. I still feel either one has a hard time in a head-to-head competition with "Wave of Mutilation" though. If the Doolittle version of that song isn't their best, than the At the BBC version almost certainly is.

[Guest godthedog]

i guess i'm the odd fan out anyway, cause i love "silver."

[Guest Edwin MacPhisto]

i guess i'm the odd fan out anyway, cause i love "silver."

Not too odd. I don't love it on its own, but as a deep dark ominous prelude to the balls-out Biblical apocalypse that is "Gouge Away," it rocks the socks.

[Guest LooseCannon]

i guess i'm the odd fan out anyway, cause i love "silver."

Eh. Everyone seems to have one song off Doolittle that they don't particularly like. For a lot of people, it's "la la love you." For others it's "Silver." You seem, in general, to like the Kim Deal songs more than I do. So I don't know. I agree with Edwin that it just makes "gouge away," sound that much better though.

[Guest Incandenza]

"Silver"'s the sole weak spot on an otherwise great album. Never having liked the Breeders, I'll contend that "Gigantic" is Kim Deal's shining moment.