A what if of sorts

[Guest Just call me Dan]

The two biggest icons of the WWE in the last 5 years cease to be on WWE programming. In turn, the writing gets worse and worse, while HHH runs the show and the company goes down the toilet. 2 years ago, Rock and Austin ran the main events, with people like HHH working his ass off and asserting himself high on the card (actually to most everyone's delight). Things looked good with new stars with excellent potential in Benoit, Jericho and Angle being pushed. Now the WWE is nearing death it seems. Question for thought is, if Rock would devote himself to the company full time and Austin never left, would things be this bad? Don't you think that if those two solid draws were still around, the company would have rebounded from recent lows rather than faltered? I say if those two were still here, storylines would be much better. I think the WWE has no drawing power anymore with the sudden loss of both and can't handle it. Would the re-addition of those two men to the rosters turn the WWE around?

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

My answer to this lies in early 2001.

 

HHH goes over Austin the month before he gets the title...

 

then after Austin turns heel, HHH stays heel for no particular reason to leach off him.

 

In short...HHH would get his way no matter what.

[Guest Just call me Dan]

I agree, but I just don't think there would be any way HHH could stay on toop if he weren't drawing and had Austin or Rock to outsghine him time and time again. You didn't See HHH/Brock at Summerslam because Rocky was the one guy who they knew would pull the highest rating out of a Lesnar match. HHH has no one to out do him (besides those potential guys) who can actually prove it. Austin and Rock would be in PPV main events more often than not, and they would help produce a more even product instead of being outweighed by HHH's bullshit.

[Guest BoboBrazil]

You didn't see HHH/Brock at Summerslam, because HHH wouldn't have done the job.

[Guest edotherocket]

Austin kept HHH out of production meetings. That makes a difference.

 

Although in a round a bout sort of way, things would probably still be shit since Austin was certainly still around during WWE's decline and so was Rock (they're both on No Way Out, one of the weakest PPVs of the year). But periodically, just by roster rotation we would have better main events instead of Taker and HHH ALWAYS stinking things up.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I'm not to happy with the defintion of "drawing" people.

 

HHH doesn't draw anyone. No one goes to the show to see HHH. The few that go, do so to see the WWE.

 

There are only a couple instances where I would say that someone litteraly drew the house.

 

Hogan in the mid 80's

 

Austin in the late 90's

 

and to an extent...Flair almost kept NWA afloat on his own for years.

 

This is why I never bought Rock as an Icon on these guys level.

 

Rock never had to draw the house without Austin right there until 2000. Then the show was all about Rock and HHH.

 

I'm sure SummerSlam drew well...but A: That's Summerslam, it always does welll...and B: HBK kinda wrestled that night too.

[Guest Sakura]

But is HBK really a draw?

[Guest Nater]

When they promote him as a credible threat..

When he pops crowds because he isnt over used..

When he puts on superb matches..

 

They are bound to draw/be better than current raw.

[Guest SP-1]

I'd say HBK is a draw. Like it or not, Shawn Michaels still has quite a fan base. Just last Monday on RAW, he had most of the people in WWE's restaurant chanting "HBK!" People will still go to see him, no doubt.

 

bps, I kind of agree with you and I kind of don't. I think alot of Rock's success stems from how he works with someone else. I'd say around a half of Rock's draw lies in his mic work, and he generally needs someone that can retaliate somewhat in kind to make something hot (which Austin and HHH could both do rather well, as well as Foley). But, he did tend to outshine his adversary, and I do think that overall he's on the level of Austin and Hogan. Definitely.

 

The X-8 match with Hogan itself isn't so much a measure of this(as I think it could have been technically better), but go back and listen to the crowd there. The announcer's saying it aside, that place really was split down the middle, and the two sides tended to change up quite a bit throughout the match. Hearing it in DVD quality audio is actually kind of amazing. Rock's just as solid as Austin and Hogan, in my opinion. I will, however, admit that Rock had to be pulled up to that level (via Austin, I would think), and didn't achieve it on his own the way Austin and Hogan pretty much did.

 

As for how things would be were Austin and Rock still around . . . I think it may be possible that they would have kept things relatively on track. Even if Austin still wound up leaving a little later, I think if he'd have stuck it out he may have wound up really laying into Vince about how things were going, and perhaps giving Vince the wake-up call we so desperately want him to recieve now.

 

I get a vibe from Rocky, however, of a very strong loyalty to Vince, so I'm not so sure that he would have made a huge fuss about stuff. But I could very well be mistaken on that, like everything else.

 

-SP

 

EDIT: Post 100 turned out to be something deep and credible! WHOO!

[Guest Mik at Cornell]

I disagree with you Spiderpoet on the fact that the crowd was split down the middle at WM X-8. I was there, and there were next to NO people cheering the Rock. There were Hogan chants in Toronto all day, especially that night in the Skydome.

[Guest SP-1]

You're certainly entitled to that.

 

My reasons for stating that come from how the crowd sounds on the DVD, and what I remember my friend (who was also at X-8) telling me. I'll ask him if I talk to him again before this thread dies out to make sure. As I said, that's all my opinion, formed from what I've ben able to observe from the match itself.

 

And there's even support for what you've said here in the match itself. If there was in fact alot more anti-Rock cheering going on than I've been able to tell, he adapted to it and started using a couple of heelish tactics.

 

Either way, Hogan's presence in the match and the fact that Rocky got massive heat either way (whether it was half-n-half or massively anti-Rock), is still fairly in line with what I was saying about Rock's success being related very much to what's going on around him at the given time.

 

-SP

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Austin kept HHH out of production meetings. That makes a difference.

 

Although in a round a bout sort of way, things would probably still be shit since Austin was certainly still around during WWE's decline and so was Rock (they're both on No Way Out, one of the weakest PPVs of the year). But periodically, just by roster rotation we would have better main events instead of Taker and HHH ALWAYS stinking things up.

The nWo was at that show, too, as well as TV and other PPVs althrough their recent decline. Draw your own conclusions there.

[Guest Brian]

I disagree. Mchaels, like Hogan, popped a nice buy because it was a one-time only deal going. Notice how once everyone was done, there was nothing left to milk. Which is why they're putting so much time between now and his next match. They draw on a name basis only, because there's something there that people want to see when they know they may only see something once, and the memories.

[JasonX 0]

My answer to this lies in early 2001.

 

HHH goes over Austin the month before he gets the title...

 

then after Austin turns heel, HHH stays heel for no particular reason to leach off him.

 

In short...HHH would get his way no matter what.

To expand on that:

 

After squashing Benoit and Jericho like jobbers under the illusion of elevating them, HHH and Austin's alliance explodes with HHH turning face and Austin playing the roll of chickenshit heel who can't do anything right and who probably takes in Benoit and Jericho so that he can humiliate them and bury them even more than Austin did with WCW and ECW during the Invasion angle. Kurt Angle possibly joins Austin like he did when HHH went down as Austin's dorky but not totally buried sidekick who fights Rock for Austin (since Rock is "Beneath" Austin) while Steph turns tweener and gets tons of camera time for herself playing everyone against each other...

 

Meanwhile Rock feuds with Kurt Angle and UT while doing nothing of note with promises of a big money rematch with Austin for the belt at the 2002 WM. But it never comes as HHH gets to strip Austin of the World Title and proceeds to challenge Angle, UT and Rock to a Fatal Four-Way Match which ends with Angle jobbing to Rock so that he gets the title without going over UT and HHH.....

[Guest onemanshow]

Just last Monday on RAW, he had most of the people in WWE's restaurant chanting "HBK!"

 

No offense meant, but any wrestler who goes to WWE New York as a fan favorite gets cheered like that...granted HBK's cheers were a bit louder than most, but still...I've heard Al Snow get a reaction like that before.

[Guest Just call me Dan]

I guess all in all I wish Austin would have just blasted Vince face to face and either gottne fired or totally waken him up. Him walking out just dropped the company on its head ala Lesnar/Holly. He just screwed the company. I'm not trying to form a biased opinion because I'm such an Austin mark, but I really think the company's well being was centered a lot arounbd just him, whether he was in the mid cards or not. You can take a look at the company when it's centered around Austin playing the superman, and then HHH playing the superman and look at the difference. I say 2001 > 2002.

[Guest SP-1]

I'm not going to lie. I'm a huge HBK mark. And yes, maybe that skewers my perception on his fan reaction just a little. But let's be honest. Since he left, pretty much any time Shawn is around fans, they go nuts. People still love him, no way around it. Does nostalgia play a role in it? I have no doubt about it. Even I'll admit, he isn't quite the Shawn he used to be. I think smark and mark alike just want to see that one last Big One and for him to retire for good.

 

Stunner, I pretty much agree with you. I have to wonder if Austin didn't feel pressures from all sides when he left, too. I tink it's kind of obvious that there was at least some sort of tension at home (I would think, anyway . . . ), if the HHH power play rumors are true, I'm sure Hunter was watching and waiting and prodding, and Austin probably sensed it or knew it outright. The company's product was going downhill and he wasn't happy with his own character direction either, by most accounts. And, of course, the fans. I don't remember the fan reacions at the time, but Austin was out there, he could hear them and it might have contributed. I think he just felt backed into a corner and had to bolt to clear his head. Then other crap came up along the way.

 

His departure has left a huge hole. One that Rock did a decent job of filling when Austin was out for surgery for so long. However . . . Rock isn't there now to fill that hole. Hogan hasn't been around in a while. There isn't an Icon on that level, really, that I can think of, that can fill that hole. When he's playing by the rules, Hunter's good. But I don't think he's on Rock/Austin/Hogan levels, not even in general fan perception. He's a good man for his time, or was, and all HHHate aside, I honestly think he's blown his shot at making it to that level.

 

There's a void there. Hunter ain't filling it. What we need is someone that can at least approach that Iconic status to come in and really throw down with HHH and give him a run for his money. My money would be on Jericho, Angle, or maybe Benoit. If Foley ever returned, yes, but there's not much chance of that happening and I don't think I'd want to see it happen either. RVD can go against HHH and work a dynamite program, I'm sure, but RVD was a bigger icon in ECW than he is here. It hasn't quite transferred over yet (though . . . it could). He is, however, becoming a force on RAW.

 

I can't think of anything more to add right now . . . and dinner's calling.

 

-SP, who is hungry.

[Guest Just call me Dan]

*bump*

 

I'll get back to this topic when my biology test is over.....

[Guest Insane Clown Dan]

::sigh:: If Jericho had turned back to being an uber-face, there is no question that he would be the WWE's top draw and potentially newest icon.

 

Right now, the only person that I see as being close to, as a draw, as Austin/Rock/Hogan is Edge. Even if he hadn't improved or had the good opponents he's been having, all he really needs is that full push to main eventer status above Undertaker and Brock and he'll already have all the marks at his feet.

[Guest Brian]

If he would have won the title in April 2000. Now it's just to salvage his character and work from there. But I think people want to cheer him.

[Guest Anglesault]

Austin would have tamed HHH.

[Guest IB2BLACK]

Austin is no angel, especially when it comes to politics.Ya''ll remember his refusal to put the NWO over, which basically killed the angle. Also, i don't think Austin walked because he was concerned with the "company', he was only concerned with "himself".

[Guest Anglesault]

Austin is no angel, especially when it comes to politics.Ya''ll remember his refusal to put the NWO over, which basically killed the angle.

Good politics. Not all politics are bad.

[Guest Just call me Dan]

2 Black I think that's a definite overstatement. Austin loved putting over guys like Angle, and planned on doing so for his much favored Benoit and possibly Eddie. Now the main reason he might be hesitant is because he knew that Rock might do the same, but HHH and Taker wouldn't. Now all that is left are those two. Rock made Jericho, and then HHH broke him. Taker would have done so at the time as well. Everyone complains, and rightfully so, about those certain guys like Jericho,Angle, Benoit and Eddie not being put over. Well even though Austin politicked against the nWo (good move) he would have given the WWE exactly what it REALLY needed. The advancement of those four guys careers when asked.

[Guest Banky]

2 Black I think that's a definite overstatement. Austin loved putting over guys like Angle, and planned on doing so for his much favored Benoit and possibly Eddie. Now the main reason he might be hesitant is because he knew that Rock might do the same, but HHH and Taker wouldn't. Now all that is left are those two. Rock made Jericho, and then HHH broke him. Taker would have done so at the time as well. Everyone complains, and rightfully so, about those certain guys like Jericho,Angle, Benoit and Eddie not being put over. Well even though Austin politicked against the nWo (good move) he would have given the WWE exactly what it REALLY needed. The advancement of those four guys careers when asked.

You are 100% correct. When has Austin ever been truly wrong and not put someone over? He pulled rank or Billy Gunn and Jeff Jarrett, why? Because they simply weren't ready. Was he right? Your damn right he was. When he refused to put Triple H over at Summerslam 99, was he right? Your damn right he was. Triple H was not over at the time, and simply put, putting the power into Triple H's court would have been a bad move. Well it eventually was, and look how things have turned out.

 

When the nWo came in, Austin shared his reluctance of working with Hall BUT he still did it. And tell me what happened? Yes, thats right, Hall was fired 2 months later. Austin was booked me to a lame goose in that fued, and it was good he protected his investment.

 

After the nWo charade, he had to put the over-the-hill Undertaker over and fall into a fued with a has-been in Flair. Upset with the direction of his character, he complains YET stays. Then he requests a fued with Eddie Guerrero, a WWE up and comer who needed a big fued to elevate him. Austin takes that honess and does it.

 

The only thing Austin has ever does questionably in the company was walk-out, and I don't even think that was a bad thing.

 

So was Austin a politician? No, he was protecting his investment. Simply put, if you don't protect yourself in this business, who will? All of the WWE superstars are a bunch of catty bitches, except Guerrero, Benoit, and Angle - none of which you will have EVER heard complaining about anything.

[Guest Just call me Dan]

Thank you, Fletch. I feel like everyone who supports Austin alongside me never has anything to say but leave him alone, he's Austin. analysis like that makes me feel better about my support of his actions.

 

People can ramble on and on about what he did during the Invasion, but there was absolutely no star power to be harnesed other than what was if you ask me. RVD, like it or not, is a huge breakout star from that time period, and I think Austin MADE his career. Sure Angle wasn't a part of the WCW/ECW really, but Austin really put together an excellent feud with him. Jericho benefited from austin but it went pretty unnoticed because of their sub-par matches. I personally feel if he would have stayed and his feuds with Benoit/Eddie would have drawn out, those two would be in an even higher position on the card than they are now, and you'd be seeing then headlining. The Invasion failed because there were 2 big names on the WCW/ECW side that were already marketable. If you want to rush 15 guys into a company, some of them better be able to draw, you can't just expect them to be equal to the existing WWE's main eventers. You had DDP and Booker. The rest could have been worked on, but with the squashing of DDP and Booker early on, the Alliance died right there. Face it, WWE was so much better than WCW at that time, their mid card guys just could not be put over Main event WWE wrestlers just like that. All those dream matches they teased never happened because of contract disputes, and THAT doomed the Allaince from the beginning. Blaming Austin for that failure is ludicrous, you're just lucky HHH wasn't around at the time.

[Guest Banky]

Thank you, Fletch. I feel like everyone who supports Austin alongside me never has anything to say but leave him alone, he's Austin. analysis like that makes me feel better about my support of his actions.

 

People can ramble on and on about what he did during the Invasion, but there was absolutely no star power to be harnesed other than what was if you ask me. RVD, like it or not, is a huge breakout star from that time period, and I think Austin MADE his career. Sure Angle wasn't a part of the WCW/ECW really, but Austin really put together an excellent feud with him. Jericho benefited from austin but it went pretty unnoticed because of their sub-par matches. I personally feel if he would have stayed and his feuds with Benoit/Eddie would have drawn out, those two would be in an even higher position on the card than they are now, and you'd be seeing then headlining. The Invasion failed because there were 2 big names on the WCW/ECW side that were already marketable. If you want to rush 15 guys into a company, some of them better be able to draw, you can't just expect them to be equal to the existing WWE's main eventers. You had DDP and Booker. The rest could have been worked on, but with the squashing of DDP and Booker early on, the Alliance died right there. Face it, WWE was so much better than WCW at that time, their mid card guys just could not be put over Main event WWE wrestlers just like that. All those dream matches they teased never happened because of contract disputes, and THAT doomed the Allaince from the beginning. Blaming Austin for that failure is ludicrous, you're just lucky HHH wasn't around at the time.

I completely forgot about the Alliance. He absolutly thrived in his new role as a heel, and made a group of rag tag guys look credible. He did give a push of sorts to RVD, Tazz, and such by acting paranoid of them. If anyone has had a bigger part in putting the internet darlings Benoit, Jericho, Angle, and even RVD over - it has been Austin. No question. End of story, every WWE fan owes a debt of gratitude to Austin.

[Guest Just call me Dan]

I salute you my friend, someone smart who shares my beliefs on this subject. That is golden.

[Guest DeputyHawk]

in general i think you're absolutely right about austin. he and rocky would have undoubtedly put new talent over if they were deserving. hell, rock especially could have put frickin hugh morrus over and not lost any heat. but i think in his last few months austin had just lost all motivation. he broke jericho's title run just as much as hhh did, practically treating him as a squah boy at no way out. and while he was right about the n.w.o, he acted very pettily by refusing to sell anything at all for them - popping right back up from hall's stunner at wm, then beating flair, bigshow & x-pac all by himself at judgement day. it was raw's main storyline and austin just made it look like a joke. it was a joke, but there's such a thing as making the best of a bad situation, and that just damaged the company more than it was damaging itself already. so yeah, i'd love to see a motivated austin back on the scene and (hopefully) stopping hhh from further driving the nails into the coffin, but the shell of his former self we saw in his last six months would do the company no good whatsoever.