What is Good/Bad Selling?

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

We seem to be torn on this board as to what exactly equals good or bad selling.

 

So I thought I'd start a thread where we could discuss what we consider good or bad selling.

 

We can give examples or hypothetical situations.

 

For example...should a wrestler sell arm work as if his arm was useless? Or should he sell it as if it were sore? Should he use it at all or show signs of trouble using it? When I have a job to do but have a sore arm I know the job still needs to be done right so I work through the pain. So why is it in wrestling that's considered bad selling?

[Guest Banky]

I am curious how half of the time in All Japan they no-sell, and others they act as though they've been hit by a Freight Train. I am sure I am not comprehending the orgin of selling in All-Japan/NOAH, because it doesn't make any sense to me.

[Guest WrestlingDeacon]

Good selling is making a move look like it hurts and then continue on in the match by effectively portraying the realistic effects of a move.

 

Meaning that if someone has you in an armbar for a few minutes, you should sell it as being sore, but if someone is working the arm over the entire match, where their whole move set is centered around destroying the arm, then you should sell it like it's dead.

 

Also, having the selling of an injury or worked over part effect your move set is key. As Scott Keith has said, selling is not clutching your ribs like they hurt, doing a move like normal and then going back to clutching your ribs. Going for a bodyslam and buckling on it, or making it look like doing it hurt you like hell because of the rib injury is how you do it.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

But to sell it like it's dead carries the possibilities of stinking up the rest of the match since in theory the wouldn't be able to do most of their moves. And a match without moves sucks.

 

I don't think they should sell it like its dead at all. Sell it like it's hurt yes, but even then you can muster up some strength to do something. Storyline wise if it's supposed to be broken that is the only time to sell it like it's dead.

[Guest WrestlingDeacon]

Notice how I said it also needs to effect your moveset. If the storyline of the match is "I'm going to destroy this guy's arm so bad he can't use it" then the other guy needs to sell it that way and try to play it up that he's trying to work around it, a lot of kicks, leg based moves, things he can do with the one good arm. Then the storyline veers into how this guy can overcome the odds to win with a bum arm. I'm saying a very specific situation here, you should sell the arm as being dead only if that's how the match and storyline is built.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

What All Japan have you seen? If it is 1997-current, the selling is going to be shitty for the most part and not make much sense to anyone, let alone an AJPW fan.

 

Tim

[Guest wolverine]

For the most part, AJ from 1998-2000 blew, with today's product being utter shit. They couldn't think of any other way to excite the audience other than dropping themselves on their skulls to draw a reaction.

 

However, AJ at their peak (1990-1993) is the best promotion that there's ever been, with more great matches in one year than most promotions have in their existence.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Selling also doesn't involve just body part work. Selling exhaustion, making your comebacks reasonable and done with logic, and understanding the role you play in the match and playing that role.

 

Benoit v RVD from Summerslam sucked not only because RVD couldn't sell the arm but because he also didn't know his role. He didn't know when to make his comebacks or how to do so, even though Benoit gave him the openings to do so.

 

That is called bad storytelling (psychology) which goes hand in hand with selling.

 

Misawa, Kawada, "Good" Taue, "Good" Akiyama, Benoit, "Good" Juventud are all examples of great sellers when on top of their games.

 

Tim

[Guest godthedog]

there's a thousand different ways to sell something well, part of what makes great wrestlers unique is the different ways they sell the same moves/body parts. there's no one "right" way to do it.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

So if there is no right way to sell, that means there is no wrong way to sell? That doesn't make sense.

 

I agree that there are different ways to sell but not all of them are the right way. If RVD sells dead while he is getting beat down and then makes an amazing comeback without remembering anything about the prior beating, that is him "selling", but it is BAD selling.

 

Tim

[Guest godthedog]

So if there is no right way to sell, that means there is no wrong way to sell? That doesn't make sense.

 

I agree that there are different ways to sell but not all of them are the right way. If RVD sells dead while he is getting beat down and then makes an amazing comeback without remembering anything about the prior beating, that is him "selling", but it is BAD selling.

 

Tim

i never said there was no such thing as good selling, i said there were a thousand different good ways to sell something and that this singular abstraction called the ONE RIGHT WAY doesn't exist. we can give examples of good selling or bad selling, but we can't point to any one thing and say "this is the right way to sell." that was my point.

[Guest Banky]

What All Japan have you seen? If it is 1997-current, the selling is going to be shitty for the most part and not make much sense to anyone, let alone an AJPW fan.

 

Tim

Yea I saw Kobashi/Misawa 99 Powerpro Series Triple Crown Match...I think? I am pretty certain that is the match.

[Guest wolverine]

"Yea I saw Kobashi/Misawa 99 Powerpro Series Triple Crown Match...I think? I am pretty certain that is the match."

 

That match sucks, as does every Misawa-Kobashi match after 10/21/97. Not a good idea to judge a company based on their dying days.

[Guest Banky]

I am not/nor was I ever privy to that kind of knowledge. I don't know much about Puro, hence why I asked.

[Guest wolverine]

Ah, but it's still pretty easy to see that the selling in that match is crap. There are some kooky All Japan fans that love it, but if you've seen enough of the company, it's woodchipper material.

[Guest Banky]

Ah, but it's still pretty easy to see that the selling in that match is crap. There are some kooky All Japan fans that love it, but if you've seen enough of the company, it's woodchipper material.

I did think the selling was crappy, hence why I asked what the orginas behind it was. Honestly, I've been asking some simple questions, no need to belittle my ignorance.

[Guest treble charged]

If you want my definition of bad selling, look no further than the HIAC match from No Mercy. Brock must have hit Undertaker's hand with the chair 20 times, yet Taker was still using that hand to grab onto the Cell for balance, and used the same arm to drop an elbow.

 

YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO HAVE A BROKEN FUCKING HAND~!

 

Shit like that usually pisses me off.

[Guest wolverine]

I did think the selling was crappy, hence why I asked what the orginas behind it was. Honestly, I've been asking some simple questions, no need to belittle my ignorance.

 

Well, it's good that you recognize that fact. Just keep in mind that All Japan in the early 90's is *FAR* superior on all levels.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

I have the RVD/Benoit match on my computer and I still don't think the selling is as bad as everyone says it is.

[Guest J*ingus]

I've never understood the good selling/bad selling argument. The only bad kind to me would be inconsistent selling, where you're crippled/dead one second and then up and running around the next.

 

After all, guys in a real fight don't "sell", they generally don't clutch their ribs or fall to the ground from a single strike or attempt stupid-ass moves that have nothing to do with actually hurting a person. Selling in pro wrestling has nothing to do with reality.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Last time I saw an actual fight, neither guy had to sell, because they were actually hurting each other.

 

And selling is the way through which stories are told, more often than not. If two wrestlers want to go out and have a match that stresses their equality, it's worthless unless they both know how to sell the affects of the match and the frustration at trying to out-do the other person. If someone wants to book a one-sided beating, it's pointless unless the wipping boy knows how to take the beating and make it seem deadly. Injury-related stories are completely dependent on proper selling. It's almost always where the "fire and heart" are portrayed, so it can make flat matches seem exciting turn good matches into works of art.

 

As for the Benoit/RVD match, it's selling was probably the least of it's problems. Even had they gotten that right, it still would have stunk up the place.

[Guest J*ingus]

Last time I saw an actual fight, neither guy had to sell, because they were actually hurting each other.

That's part of my point. Wrestling is supposed to be a simulation of an actual fight, yet the selling is nowhere near realistic. For example, wrestlers are often required to oversell some painless moves, while pretending that other excrutiating ones don't hurt much. For example: taking a standard bodyslam hurts, period. In fact, it hurts a hell of a lot more than a Stone Cold Stunner, or Liger's palm strike, and probably even more than one of Kawada's backdrop drivers. But those are finishers, and the more painful slam is not. A clothesline across the chest is supposed to be much more effective than a punch to the face, which is fucking nonsense. Selling in a wrestling match has nothing at all to do with real fighting or real violence. And even pain itself isn't consistent. One person will be out running around with the same ankle injury that would keep another bedridden. And on some days, they might even switch places, depending on how they felt.

 

Since thread has a bit of a Puro flavor to it, let's take Misawa for instance. He's already been knocked a lot for finishing so many of his matches with an elbow. Well, how many street fights have you seen where a guy got cracked over the head with a brick (tiger driver) and got up and kept fighting, but then took a light slap to the face later on (elbow) and got knocked out? It's bullshit. It doesn't happen. Same thing with Kawada and Taue; kicking someone in the face is a lot more effective than a powerbomb or a shitty chokeslam, if you're actually trying to hurt them. And how about those submission holds? In real life, a submission tends to either break and rip body parts immediately, or not do a danm thing; there's not much middle ground. Certainly people rarely get stretched and beat up for minutes at a time, only to "make a comeback", which is ludicrous and goes against basic biology; it's still a major part of almost every wrestling match.

 

In short, selling is an extremely stylized form of acting, and it doesn't really have any concrete rules of its own. One can certainly complain about selling not making sense within the context of the match, like a guy not being able to stand up one second and then jumping around the next, but don't ever ask for it to be "realistic". It never will be. It hasn't been for decades.

[Guest Bricks]

If you want my definition of bad selling, look no further than the HIAC match from No Mercy. Brock must have hit Undertaker's hand with the chair 20 times, yet Taker was still using that hand to grab onto the Cell for balance, and used the same arm to drop an elbow.

 

YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO HAVE A BROKEN FUCKING HAND~!

 

Shit like that usually pisses me off.

I know 'Taker sucks and all, but really, is it that damn hard to punch with the other hand!

 

But I guess yelling after every punch is 'Taker's way of selling.

[Guest Dace59]

Part of selling is makes the moves look good and making them seem believible if only in a way.

 

Some things are under sold, some are over sold compeard to real life.

 

Even the greatest selling wont be close to realistic, but it should be continuous, place order on the power of the moves as seen in the wrestling world, putting them over, making them look good, and as before, keeping selling going, and building on it.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

The only "rules" of selling is that it should make an impresion, and preferably, an affective one. How wrestlers go about using selling to accomplish what they set out to do depends on the wrestler and the impresion they hope to make on the viewed. Creating a an environment that involves the viewer and in which the selling stays true to form in delivering the message is key.

 

Whether or not the physical aspects of the selling involved acurately portray real life isn't nearly as important as making a connection with the audience. If that involves clutching a wrist after throwing a punch, fine. If that involves getting kicked in the face several times only to win with an elbow, there's nothing wrong with that either.