YAAR: The Tweener Turns

[Guest Anglesault]

Yet Another Anglesault Rant

 

You know, I was just reading the topic on how Hogan was supposed to be facing Brock, but he turned it down and Show was shoved into his place. That led me to thinking, was there NO ONE else for him to face? There are very few guys that Hunter hasn't gotten, and as a matter of fact, they are on Smackdown. Now, Obviously Lesnar is turning face. So logically, he starts a feud with a heel. Problem: THEY HAVE NONE. Smackdown's two most prominant heels have both been turned? Oh, are they turning face to? Why, no, they are running around as Tweener's more or less. Now, I don't want Brock any where near Angle or Benoit (Or Eddy) but if you are turning the man face, why would you kill all the heel heat for prospective heel opponents? It was two months ago that Angle was the most over heel in the company. And if you are going to turn thse guys, why the hell didn't they do a full fledged turn? What the hell was wrong with the way things were? Obviously they are going to leave Brock champ and they aren't pushing Angle or Benoit, so I'm confused as to what this is supposed to accomplish, other than to make a huge mess of everything.

 

So, in conlusion

 

Why didn't they leave Brock, Kurt and Chris as full heels?

If they started it, why wouldn't they do a full turn for Angle and Benoit?

If they went through all this trouble, why has NOTHING CHANGED?

[Guest Brian]

The whole point is Heyman was protectingBenoit and Angle for Angle's WrestleMania match and Benoit, well, because he likes Benoit. Rey and Benoit were both choices after Hogan, so I don't think the plan is to turn Brock, just have him face all challengers, and Big Show is just an obstacle.

 

The second reason is Heyman likes tweeners because it gives them more depth as characters, allows them to interact with lots of character, and build off their strength as well as show off their ability to wrestle.

 

The other reason is that both guys were already getting a mixed reaction, Angle the louder pops for his big moves and heel heat for his entrance and heel antics. This way, I guess the plan is to pull a slow burn on the Angle face turn so that eventually when it comes down to it, Angle is the only guy left for Brock to prove himself with and Benoit has been the problem that Angle couldn't overcome until he wins the umble and defeats him at NWO. I think the fans will come around to him better than Benoit if he's playing himself with the edge rather than Austin with a geeky twist. He's can still pull off the comedy in a while which gives his promo the depth.

[Guest Super Pissed Smark]

While that may be a well thought-out response, I think the actual reason is something more along the lines of their having so little of a fucking clue left as to what in the hell they're doing any more that they can't even decide who they want to be a face and who they want to be a heel.

[Guest RedJed]

While that may be a well thought-out response, I think the actual reason is something more along the lines of their having so little of a fucking clue left as to what in the hell they're doing any more that they can't even decide who they want to be a face and who they want to be a heel.

This isn't Raw...........people have got to stop comparing Smackdown to Raw because even though they are both WWE, Smackdown is such a more cohesive brand. Need I give reasons why?

 

Heyman knows what he's doing, he did this same thing in ECW back in the day and after a length of time as a tweener, theres a point where they finally turn one way or another, mostly based on overall reaction the character gets in the tweener role.

 

By this admission, I'm sure Angle will be a face down the road and Lesnar will probably go back to being a heel. As for Benoit thats still up in the air.

 

The tweener role is different and refreshinf to me because it can create more interesting matchups, and you aren't held down with such by the heel-face BS.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

I love the title "YAAR!!!!!!" Reminds me of the pirate on The Simpsons, and also conveys the anger within the rant itself.

 

RedJed, how do you get a picture to be a link also on this board? I've been trying to figure it out but I'm an idiot with computers.

 

Fo sheez,

Kotzenjunge

[Guest Anglesault]

While that may be a well thought-out response, I think the actual reason is something more along the lines of their having so little of a fucking clue left as to what in the hell they're doing any more that they can't even decide who they want to be a face and who they want to be a heel.

Yeah, probably closer to that.

[Guest RedJed]

I love the title "YAAR!!!!!!" Reminds me of the pirate on The Simpsons, and also conveys the anger within the rant itself.

 

RedJed, how do you get a picture to be a link also on this board? I've been trying to figure it out but I'm an idiot with computers.

 

Fo sheez,

Kotzenjunge

Just use the IMG and URL tags, thats all.

 

BTW, I'm recruiting like crazy for that board so if anyone wants to check it out, go ahead by all means.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

Well yeah, but how? I've tried every combination I can think of.

 

Fo sheez,

Kotzenjunge

[Guest humongous2002]

There's an easy explanation to WWE's booking as of late, they are actually throwing shit on the wall to see what sticks.

[Guest Anglesault]

I think they gave Lucy the Dog the book in return for giving Jericho the rub.

[Guest Brian]

While that may be a well thought-out response, I think the actual reason is something more along the lines of their having so little of a fucking clue left as to what in the hell they're doing any more that they can't even decide who they want to be a face and who they want to be a heel.

I would doubt that's the case. Since they're still, as of this point, planning on Brock/Angle at WrestleMania (as proven by the fallen Lewis negotiations), they know that Angle needs to eventually turn face. The other thing has to do with Heyman, as part of the point in moving Brock to SmackDown was because Vince believed (or was led to believe) that Heyman could book Brock better, give him the depth and emphasize his skills. Third, ever since Benoit moved to SmackDown he's gotten protected for the most part as a character, pairing him with two better mic workers and allowing him to showcase his skills while being allowed to look strong and vulnerable by losing a few meaningless matches yet getting the big ones. Angle, has been kept in the spotlight and has a spot similar to Benoit's. Meanwhile, both guys have gotten mixed reactions, and the logical thing that Heyman does is to play them off each other as tweeners while using the WWE staple moves (wacky tag partners), until one of them, presumably Angle is ready for a turn. It seems like logical Heyman booking with a Vince twist.

 

The only problem with this is that it looks like Vince has decided on rushing the Brock face turn, which should have been held up until after WrestleMania when Brock drops the title. Plus, since Benoit got booted out of the Survivor Series main event (another sign of Benoit being protected from suffering a big loss without direction) it looks like Brock needed a challenger when Heyman wanted to protect one of his guys. So, you're left with Edge, one of Vince's guys, Mysterio and Eddie. Edge was obviously the best choice but I doubt he'll take a loss well (does he ever really, really lose?), and Mysterio's too short by WWE standards. So they can go with Eddie, who's really fodder to expand the Angle/Benoit storyline, but he's not the type of guy like Benoit who they can put in a main event and make it seem legitimate, from their view. So they bring over Show because Vince views him as being capable, put on the brakes on giving Benoit a run only to job, and spin that feud into a hold by starting the slow burn on the Angle face turn.

[Guest RedJed]

Well yeah, but how? I've tried every combination I can think of.

 

Fo sheez,

Kotzenjunge

do the URL tag first, put your linked URL in there and then do the IMG tag and put in the URL of the pic, thing to remember is to finish the URL tag AFTER the ending IMG tag. Hope that helps.

[Guest Brian]

Bump.

 

I spent like two minutes on that post, actually thinking and all.

[Guest evenflowDDT]

So... I suppose turning Brock face is solidified by these storyline conflicts with Paul Heyman? Because that's the most concrete evidence I can think of (that and the age-old "two heels don't draw so one of 'em's gotta turn" argument).

 

In regards to who else could've done the job in your analysis Brian, I think the reason neither Edge, Mysterio, nor Eddie were used is because the four (don't forget Chavo!) are going into a tag feud for the time being - this being made most obvious by Edge & Mysterio's title win tonight.

 

In regards to Anglesault's original criticism, its logistically a lot easier for the WWE to slap out Benoit/Angle feud pt. ... 3? 4? if both men are tweeners. At least that's the only reason I can think of. Since Benoit's never been good on the mic he works best as a tweener, but Angle should definitely go one way or the other (my preference is heel since I generally favor heels) since he can work both.

[Guest fazzle]

This isn't Raw...........people have got to stop comparing Smackdown to Raw because even though they are both WWE, Smackdown is such a more cohesive brand.

 

Just because the wrestling's better, doesn't mean that the management is. Remember, this is the same group of people that wanted Hogan to come back to job to Brock again at SS, but didn't think to ASK Hogan if he wanted to do it until after they decided to end the UT angle, thus forcing them to do some stupid bullshit run with the Big Show.

[Guest eirejmcmahon]

At the moment, it looks like they might want to go with heel Angle versus face Brock at Wrestlemania - why a Kurt Angle fan would be bitching about this idea is beyond me.

[Guest tombstone]

Tweeners are more interesting from a character point of view than full fledged heels or faces.

Remember, at their most entertaining, Rock (1999), Jericho (1998, 2000) and Austin (1997-98) were all tweeners in that they did or said heelish things bt still got booked as faces.

People like HHH should be heels as it is all they can do, but HHH could be considered a tweener in his smart arse guise (2000) as he got pops for being so damn cheeky, but was still the most evil man in the ring.

Don't slag tweeners it makes better TV as the motivations involved are more realistic.

[Guest Super Pissed Smark]

Bump.

 

I spent like two minutes on that post, actually thinking and all.

And well thought it was, but the thing it all hinges on is "planning on Brock/Angle at WrestleMania," which has become almost the smark Holy Grail, and I'm just not buying it.

 

That Vince was trying to get this whole Lennox Lewis thing into place before WrestleMania shows how little confidence he has in these guys. Then you've got Brock suddenly turning face, so is Angle going back to being a full-fledged heel in time for WM, or do we turn Brock again? How close to WM do we have to be before they make a decision (and how many times can they afford to turn Mr. Next Big Thing, considering he's not exactly Rock-Hogan-Austin over)? Well, I guess they've got plenty of time to decide, and keeping Angle and Benoit as tweener's gives them room to maneuver, Benoit can go heel and give face-Brock a program after the Big Show, and Angle could, um, heel against Edge again? But the longer they go without definitely pushing Angle as Lesnar's next challenger, and deciding whether he's going to be face or heel, the more pointless his tweening becomes. There seems to be some fan interest in turning Angle face, but it isn't anywhere even in the neighborhood of overwhelming, must turn him now adulation. So the longer they go with him stuck in mid-ground, the less time they'll have to turn him face, and cement him as their top face (how they'd even go about doing that with the rosters split, I'm not even sure), which seems to indicate that Angle will be the heel, if this hypothetical match takes place at WM. Does that mean Lesnar retains?

 

Good God, I can see Anglesault reaching for the straight-razor...

 

All this I think adds up to Vince not being sure what he wants to do, and the longer he stays that way the easier it'll be for someone, not mentioning any names, uh, to make suggestions to him about perhaps a stronger WM main featuring proven WM main eventers. Uh.

 

Hey, The Rock's never really put Triple-H over clean in a WrestleMania main event before, well, alright, that one match, but that was a four-way with a lot of interference so it doesn't count, and besides he'd really help make that new belt seem more legit if he'd lay down for The Shaven One in the main of the biggest show of the year. Give a little of that rub before going back to Hollywood. And that's even if the new belt still exists, seems that now that Brock's a face he'll need a really credible heel opponent for Royal Rumble, and who's more credible than Trips? Splits not really working out anyway, Vince, look at the tiny crowds for house shows. Hey, how about we end it at WM with Rock-HHH-Lesnar, uh.

 

I dunno, I guess I just doubt their sincerity in Lesnar-Angle ever making it that far.

 

And I think we've both probably thought about this more than anyone else involved in WWE creative. Well, except that one guy. Uh.

[Guest Brian]

Once again, I don't think they're going to go through with the Brock face turn unless they plan on him dropping the title now prior to WrestleMania. If Vince stays stubborn and keeps on pushing this turn then they've blown three monts of build-up and however long they've been planning this match. I think, probably like Heyman, that turning Lesnar is one of the most boneheaded moves they could do. I'm hoping they're just doing a face tease just so they can get the pop from the big F-5, and then go back to schedule.

 

I don't think the Lewis thing shows a lack of confidence. I think Vince wanted to get a mainstream, legit spin going on this match moreso he could do with just mentioning their amateur wrestling careers.

[Guest Black Tiger]

I'd guess Angle vs. Brock at the Royal Rumble, and the RR winner (Benoit or Edge) taking on Angle at Wrestlemania.

[Guest cabbageboy]

A Lesnar/Angle WM match is a weird booking decision if it is Brock the Face vs. Angle the Heel. It makes no logical sense because you are building up to a heel taking the title from a face on the biggest show. People pay to see the face defeat the heel on the biggest show of the year, not vice versa. This is assuming Angle wins of course.

 

I'd keep Lesnar a tweener right now, he's ideal in this role. He can be the defacto face against a slug like Show, or he can be a monster heel by tossing Rey around. He can be what a champ should be....a guy who defends against a variety of opponents and gives no quarter just because someone is a face.

[Guest DJ Jeff]

Right now, I think Lesnar should be kept as a tweener. He's perfect for that role. Now, if the WWE does go through with Lesnar vs. Angle at Wrestlemania 19, I think that Lesnar should be the heel, and Angle should be the face. That way, they could buildup to the match saying that Lesnar is unstoppable, and he's beaten everyone except Angle. Then, at Wrestlemania, have Angle win the WWE Title, and defend it against Benoit, Edge, or Guerrero at Backlash. If the WWE does turn Angle face, they should turn him sometime before the Royal Rumble, possibly between Armageddon and the Royal Rumble. That way, they could have him win the Royal Rumble, and start building for his match against Lesnar at Wrestlemania after the Royal Rumble. That's what I think anyways.

[Guest Brian]

Ross said their building up a slow turn so hopefully they can push it until after Mania.

[Guest Anglesault]

I would doubt that's the case. Since they're still, as of this point, planning on Brock/Angle at WrestleMania

That idea has been dropped. Angle is in no shape to main event Wrestlemania, especially after being jobbed to Edge for the 75th time this week. You can't build up a challenger at wrestlemania who can never build any kind of winning streak and loses all of his big matches.

[ChrisMWaters 0]

Angelsault...if you actually WATCHED the shows, you'd know they didn't focus on the fact that Edge beat Angle.

 

They focused on the fact that Benoit's top rope headbutt accidentally cost Angle and Benoit the Smackdown Tag Team titles.

[Guest Anglesault]

So what? They still have him lose in any match that matters. That's not wise booking.

[ChrisMWaters 0]

So what? They still have him lose in any match that matters. That's not wise booking.

I personally think that it's to finally get a climax to the Benoit/Angle feud for a while.

 

I may be wrong, but that's how I feel.

[Guest Anglesault]

Oh christ, back to that feud. More closet fighting and other segments designed specifically to make Chris Benoit and the "Challenger at WM" look like absolute morons.

 

You see, If I was booking, and I wanted Angle to challenge at Mania, I'd start booking him strong now. Of course, the WWF's plan of two weeks before Mania is better than nothing, I suppose.

[ChrisMWaters 0]

Oh christ, back to that feud.   More closet fighting and other segments designed specifically to make Chris Benoit and the "Challenger at WM" look like absolute morons.

 

You see, If I was booking, and I wanted Angle to challenge at Mania, I'd start booking him strong now. Of course, the WWF's plan of two weeks before Mania is better than nothing, I suppose.

Before Rumble, remember.

 

If they still are doing that, they'd have to have him win the Royal Rumble to be pushed.

 

Knowing them, if they do have the WWE title up for the winner of the Royal Rumble...they'll have Benoit and Angle BOTH win ala Luger and Hart in 94, but then they both have a match against each other deciding who REALLY gets the shot.

 

Oh, and their last segment I saw, with them brawling during a Halloween party, wasn't one that made them look like absolute morons. Just like two guys who will do anything to beat the shit out of the other. That's how it looked to me.

[Guest Anglesault]

Before Rumble, remember.

??

 

Oh, and their last segment I saw, with them brawling during a Halloween party, wasn't one that made them look like absolute morons

 

The numerous Stephanie bitchouts, the stinkfaces, the stupid things they do in matches (Hitting yourself with a chair, jobbing to Billy and Chuck) They were booked well exactly ONE time in the two months leading up to No mercy. How sad is that?