The Spider-Clone "Saga"

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

I was wondering if anyone could give a detailed (I'm talking Sassquatch level here.) explination of the clone saga in the mid-ninties Spider-Man titles? I know it involved Scarlet Spider, and it was supposed to be a "Knightfall" type thing for Spidey but what actually happened to cause the amount of disgust that it did?

[Guest SP-1]

The Life of Reilly

 

Go there. I don't think you can find any more detailed than that, and it has insight from people that were working for Marvel at the time to explain why it was such a drawn out thing, and why fans might have turned on it.

 

Personally, I liked Ben (the Scarlet Spider). I think that the whole thing could have just been a tighter storyline.

 

SP

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Thanks for the info. I'd also like to hear some reaction from you guys about you all felt about the story.

[Guest starvenger]

The Life of Reilly

 

Go there. I don't think you can find any more detailed than that, and it has insight from people that were working for Marvel at the time to explain why it was such a drawn out thing, and why fans might have turned on it.

 

Personally, I liked Ben (the Scarlet Spider). I think that the whole thing could have just been a tighter storyline.

 

SP

A lot of Marvel stuff at the time could have done with a tighter storyline and less (a LOT less) books. Unfortunately that wasn't their modus operandi at the time, so we were left with a storyline (that many people didn't want to see) which dragged on much longer than it had the legs for, and lots of unsold chromium.

 

And of course they follew this up with another brilliant idea, which was the return of the original Green Goblin.

 

For more Spider-clone bashing, please stay tuned for Sassquatch's inevitable rant...

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

The Life of Reilly

 

Go there.  I don't think you can find any more detailed than that, and it has insight from people that were working for Marvel at the time to explain why it was such a drawn out thing, and why fans might have turned on it.

 

Personally, I liked Ben (the Scarlet Spider).  I think that the whole thing could have just been a tighter storyline.

 

SP

A lot of Marvel stuff at the time could have done with a tighter storyline and less (a LOT less) books. Unfortunately that wasn't their modus operandi at the time, so we were left with a storyline (that many people didn't want to see) which dragged on much longer than it had the legs for, and lots of unsold chromium.

 

And of course they follew this up with another brilliant idea, which was the return of the original Green Goblin.

 

For more Spider-clone bashing, please stay tuned for Sassquatch's inevitable rant...

Actually I can't wait for Sass' rant.

[Guest SP-1]

Indeed. I'm waiting for Sass's take on it.

 

I don't think alot of the twists and turns that they made (SPOILER:)

 

 

 

 

like saying that Ben was the original and Peter was the clone and sticking with it long enough to actually rename, and start new, books.

(/SPOILER)

 

 

 

I think that if they would have had him enter as a clone and focus on Ben and Pete getting closer and Ben eventually deciding to adopt a super hero persona, without all of the other stuff, it would have gone mucho smoother, not to mention we could have avoided the whole return of Goblin thing.

 

SP

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Indeed.  I'm waiting for Sass's take on it.

 

I don't think alot of the twists and turns that they made (SPOILER:)

 

 

 

 

like saying that Ben was the original and Peter was the clone and sticking with it long enough to actually rename, and start new, books.

(/SPOILER)

 

 

 

I think that if they would have had him enter as a clone and focus on Ben and Pete getting closer and Ben eventually deciding to adopt a super hero persona, without all of the other stuff, it would have gone mucho smoother, not to mention we could have avoided the whole return of Goblin thing.

 

SP

Well, I liked them bringing back GG. Maybe it's because I was so angry that they would sacrifice a classic villian like Doc Ock for Venom 2.0 (Kaine) a few monthes earlier.

 

 

(I think I should have mentioned that I read scattered issues of this in 3-Packs that I bought at my local dollar store. I never knew what the hell was going on but I liked Spidey, and I thought Scarlet Spider was a cool character.)

[Guest SP-1]

I dunno. My only problem with bringing Norman back lies with the fact that I think when someone dies, they should stay dead. Don't bring them back, especially not for a cheap fix, you know? That's my big problem with it.

 

And the cheapness of it is reflected in that Marvel doesn't acknowledge those events in continuity very much now. Not a word of the Clone Saga was spoken in the recent Goblin arc in Peter Parker: Spider-Man, when the events of it could have been a major thing for Peter's inner struggle with Norman.

 

If you haven't read that arc, I'd recommend at least reading it in the store. The TPB is already out. It's really good, too, with an ending that I loved.

 

SP

[Guest Retro Rob]

I used to read comics during the Clone Saga. I'm a BIG Spiderman mark, as he is my favorite comic book hero. During the mid-90's I hated the Kane shit and then the clone stuff. I did mark for the Green Goblin return though.

 

For a while I was being sent the Spiderman comics at home, then all of a sudden they started sending me Scarlet Spider comics instead. I WAS PISSED about that one.

[Guest Mad Dog]

I think I could've stuck through it had Ben Reily stayed as Spider-Man or had he just always been thought of as the clone.

 

I turned on it when it was revealed that Parker was the real one and then they killed Ben.

[Guest cynicalprofit]

Worst storyline ever

 

You should have never ask, serioulsy a horrible story that made no sense and completely ereased who spiderman was. While Im all for the idea of fucking with Parkers life, telling us its not Parker after like waht 25 years? was a really bad idea.

[Guest pochorenella]

At first I was really intrigued by this story. The possibility that the Spidey we knew and loved was really a clone posed for some interesting developments, at the very least. When they started down this path, you just knew that they would reveal that Ben was the real Spidey, but then they messed the story up, it dragged for too damn long, they introduced this Kaine fella, killed Doc Ock, started the Scarlet Spider comics, and so on and so on. It got really diluted to the point that the fans were just turned away en masse, even though sales for the early issues of the story were very good. That must have made Marvel go crazy because there's just no excuse for what they did to Spidey after that. If the storyline hadn't been dragged on af far as it was maybe it would've been more enjoyable (or less detestable, depending on your viewpoint.) I think a shorter, tighter stoyarc would have been just enough and wouldn't have left fans with such a bad taste in their mouths.

 

Thank God that Spider-Man has become readable and entertaining again. Coming back from that near-death experience must have been a tall order.

[Guest Smell the ratings!!!]

You know, when that whole thing started, I really liked Ben Reily. I certainly preferred him to that weak ass Spiderman who had predictably fallen into Spawn/Punisher mode, because that's what was cool at the time.

 

Of course, the clone thing can only go so far, and I'm happy to say the last Spiderman issues I read were of Aunt May dying, Peter leaving, and Ben Reily going into One True Spiderman mode. I haven't finished the article you linked yet, but I am quite terrified in finding out what Marvel did to that poor bastard of a book.

[Guest HellSpawn]

Mixed Emotions here. And a little of lapse of memory, you know, its NOT a story I want to keep on my mind.

 

*(they in almost all my post = Marvel/Marvel Writers)

 

It began a few issues before with Peter being a little more Grim n Gritty, then suddenly a new guy is presented with similar skills, and finally... Peter faces... Peter?!?!?!? Then they fight, and fibally they understand that it was something that happen way back with Jackal clones experiments, but Who is wthe Clon? If my memory is good, Ben ("New" Peter), accept he is the clon and later, here it comes... The Scarlett Spider!!

 

OK I can live with this, but here is when the "$#!t hit the fan". I can live with both SS & SM, both having a nice superhero life, maybe Ben becoming a long lost cousin, but NOOOOOOOO they cant leave the story here.

 

There was another clone, this guy is an assassin, Kaine. Oh and the Jackal didnt die, he is alive !!!!

 

So, (again, with some memory lapses) suddenly, Aun May confess to Peter that she always knew Peter was Spidey!!!!! a few minutes later, she got sick, and later....she dies!!!!! OMG What a shcoking conclussion on ASM #400.... but guess what? they still mess with our hero.

 

Post funeral, Peter was arrested, remember Kaine? oh well, jump a few months ago, Peter is free, Kaine is the assassin, Ben still is SS, but MJ & Peter are tired of all this $#!t and Peter Quits !!! Oh yeah, MJ is pregnant. So, MJ & PP travel to Portland and live happy. SS is the new spidey, Jackal is dead (I think, cant remember) but....

 

Green Goblin returns !!!!!!!!!

 

And later we'll know that... He never died way back after Gwen's death, he was the boss of Jackal and he order all this clone genesis, he also kidnapped Aunt may and change her for an actress, that actress died on #400...

 

OMG I cant continune with this post... its soo sad.

 

Well, I was one of the millions aaaaand millions of Spidey fans that quit at the beginning/after/in between of this story.

 

OH yeah, I forgot about the BIGGEST $#!T ON THIS STORY.... Peter was the clone all this years.....and Ben was the real deal.... until later when we know its not true.

 

 

And Howard Mackie is still pissed because we cant forget this?!?!?

[Guest SP-1]

The big thing is that, if you ever read those columns that I linked to above, so much of it had to do with merchandising and gimmick stuff. That's ultimately why it was drug out for so long. But that was Marvel at the time, unfortunately. And New Marvel isn't so great, but at least they're trying to avoid a catastrophe like Clone Saga again. Thankfully.

 

SP

[Guest benoitrulz4life]

No, not the spider-clone saga. Anything but that! No! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest converge241]

They sold very well when i ran my comic store.

 

Even people who hated the twist in it kept buying it until it ended

 

and then i believe spidey sales dropped 42% or so! (i forget the exact figures but when i did inventory for the next few months for ordering the new books it was in the 40's but not close enough to 50 to round up).

[Guest Smell the ratings!!!]

okay, I finished the columns, and I just so immensly disgusted at how the clone thing ended. Thank god I dropped it halfway.

 

The funny this is, one of the issues near the end, about the bee Swarm, I bought to read on a plane. I honestly had no idea the clone thing was still going on, even after I read it. I mean that was, what, months after Amazing 400.

[Guest Sassquatch]

The Clone Saga showed fans that Marvel's creativity had fell into the toilet. The House of Ideas turned into the House of Tired Old Stories That Were Recycled and Web of Spider-Man #117 was the start of all this. I do not care if the sales for the book were good. The entire storyarc was a rehashed piece of shit that was insult to the fan's intelligence that told them that Marvel was comfortable with using tired plot lines.

 

The man that fans had grown up with for over 30 years was no longer the same man that they thought they knew. Peter Parker was the Everyman in that nearly anyone could relate to him. But how often is it that fans have to find out that they have an engineered clone following them around but to only find out that the clone is really you and that you are really the clone?

 

And Marvel wondered why the sales for the book were sliding after this revelation was made.

 

Marvel was creatively bankrupt and instead of killing the idea in about 5 issues, the thing went on for over two years which lasted for 25 issues of masturbatory and contrived plot lines that drove fans away in the hundreds and later on the thousands. At this point, the suits at Marvel had high jacked the storyline and told everyone involved to continue on with the storyline because they felt that the sales bump they received in the first year could be increased if the story went on longer than what was initially planned.

 

Perhaps the move that made even the Spider-Man rubes realize this book story was bad was when Marvel brought back Norman Osborn, the Green Goblin after over 20 years of being dead (or so we thought). Norman's reasoning for how he came back was perhaps one of the most asinine and contrived explanations that Marvel could have come up with. Norman's Goblin formula apparently gave him this uncanny healing power that would make Wolverine blush. He was impaled through the heart by his own Goblin glider but then revealed to Spidey he survived and was "healing up in Europe" the entire time and let everyone else think he was dead in the States. During this time, Norman had become one of Europe's top crime lord’s which went against Marvel's insistence that the Foreigner was the Kingpin of crime in Europe. Another mistake that Marvel had made a huge deal out of throughout the '80's and early '90's just to give the Europe fans some diversity.

 

Norman was revealed as the man who orchestrated the entire Clone Saga which was so fitting due to the number of insulting and contrived plots that the story had tossed out. Many fans knew that Norman was going to be revealed as the cause for the Clone Saga due to Wizard and Marvel making a blurb about how 1996 would be the year of the Goblin and they were not talking about the Hobgoblin. So Marvel's big surprise was not a surprise at all yet they desperately tried to make fans buy into this shocking surprise for months on end after the story had ended.

 

The Goblin was a fixture in Spidey's life because the battle with the Goblin which resulted in his death had left a deep impression in Spidey that left him with a feeling of satisfaction for Gwen Stacy's death and also showed fans that Spidey's innocence had been lost. Spider-Man had evolved as a character after the tragic event with Gwen and the Goblin, which had given him resonance and definition.

 

But that was all pushed under the carpet in the hopes of salvaging a sinking storyline that was killing off the Spider-Man franchise and that was driving away fans by the hundreds.

 

The greediness shown by Marvel throughout this entire debacle also showed fans that Marvel was willing to sacrifice turning out interesting books that did not insult the fans intelligence just so they could make some extra cash. These greedy business tactics and the highjacking of the Spider-Man staff caused many long time Spider-Man and Marvel fans to leave the book and to stop buying Marvel books, as they were disgusted with everyone involved. The writers did not have the backbone to stand up to the suits in power who did not know a thing about Spider-Man while the suits in power only cared about money, Spider-Man and the X-Men.

 

Fans started to realize that the non-Spider-Man/X-Men books were being tossed to the side and were given no care and soon these books went down the toilets themselves. The fans who read the books that Marvel had deemed "commercial suicide" voiced their displeasure with the company and sales for these books dropped tremendously as the fans were given no reason to continue reading a book that was being used for some writer to masturbate on. The creative staff at Marvel gave the fans no confidence in what they were doing and it was estimated that nearly 1/5 of Marvel's entire readership stopped reading their books after the Clone Saga and Onslaught had ended. Too little, too late.

 

The Clone Saga represented *everything* that was wrong with the comic book industry in the '90's. The companies would toss out these huge earth-shattering events that would attract new readers and raise sales up. But instead of actually building a new fanbase, the companies continued to use shock tactic writing which did not keep new fans interested in comic books and after the event was finally ended, the books were left with the same core fanbase, albeit with less fans.

 

The Clone Saga also ruined Howard Mackie's career as he became the scapegoat for the entire debacle and like the tool he is, he took the brunt of the backlash from fans which effectively turned him into a sales poison. Mackie turned out to be so bad for sales that Marvel was forced to keep his name a secret when he was the man who wrote the short lived mini-series the Brotherhood. The book was put on hold indefinitely after word had leaked out to fans that Mackie was the mystery writer. Mackie was the perfect example of just how low a promising writer can fall if they let the front office dictate to them what should be written. But Mackie has done himself no favors over the years by making up excuses for why the Clone Saga was not as bad as people make it out to be yet ignoring the blatantly low numbers that the copies sold during and after the Saga ended. Mackie's defensive nature towards his role in the mess also has shown fans that old wounds never heal fast. Anyone who has mentioned the Clone Saga to him in interviews over the last couple years have received an tongue lashing for bringing up a "dead subject that is done with" which has turned Mackie into a bitter person.

 

The topic of the Clone Saga is a sore topic for me as it nearly drove me out of comic books and caused me to later stop buying Spider-Man for nearly a year after the Scarlet Spider had been given his own mini-series. Marvel was seriously thinking about turning into a regular monthly series that would later on replace the old Spider-Man titles. Books like Iron Man, Captain America, the Avengers, and the Hulk were all put on the backburner and given to hack writers/artists or quickly became shit due to the suits at Marvel dictating what would happen in the books which ruined many of them beyond repair.

 

If anyone is curious about how good/bad the sales of the Clone Saga were Spidey, you can all go here to check out the sales chart I made several months ago.