OK. Let's have a serious fucking discussion..

[Guest Edwin MacPhisto]

I think we got the pros and cons down pretty well, but I'll throw in one more pro: the Pedigree is still a pretty nifty and convincing finisher.

 

I think the way to get HHH interesting again is just to have him lose. And I'm not talking Kane putting him in a casket after Shawn Michaels superkicks him, nor am I talking about Booker getting a pretty fluke-ish tag match pin. I'm talking about a clean win--if someone (other than Michaels) reverses the pedigree into a schoolboy pin, or someone pins him clean without interference.

 

Like Loss4Words suggested, HHH's biggest asset presently is his credibility. If he loses to someone, they get some of that credibility, and he doesn't fall apart, and there's potential for a program.

 

"Nobody beats me!"

"I beat you."

"I'm gonna kill you for that!"

 

And as long as there aren't any corpses or Lucys involved, it's really a simple way to create somebody else AND make the character interesting again.

 

The other big thing is just to cut back TV time. I don't care what the hell he's doing backstage, but unless somebody's wrestling a 15 minute-plus match, I don't want to see ANY one wrestler on my screen for more than 20 minutes of two hours.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

Austin continuously made Jericho look like shit. Complete shit. Am I the only one who remembers this? What about when Austin squashed Jericho the week before he won the title?

I'd call that a case of really bad booking. And like Loss said, the WWE never really seemed to have any confidence in either Angle or Jericho to really get behind the pushes. And honestly, that match should have never happened if it was going to be the Vengeance main event.

[Guest Loss4Words]

Yeah, I was little bent over that squash at the time myself, but let's look at how just how "badly" Austin treated Jericho.

 

1. Jericho pinned Austin to win the tag titles for himself and Benoit on the 05/21/01 RAW.

 

2. After Jericho's embarrassing performance against Rhyno at Summerslam 2001, Jericho needed a good match and he went out there with Austin that week on Smackdown and put forth a great little TV match with Austin bumping all over the place for him and selling like crazy and having to cheat pretty heavily to win.

 

3. Jericho defeated Austin to unify the WWF and WCW World titles.

 

4. Jericho gave Austin more of a beatdown than perhaps anyone has ever gotten on Austin as Jericho broke a bunch of beer cans over his head, poured beer all over him and gave him the middle finger.

 

5. Jericho defeated Austin at No Way Out on the road to Wrestlemania.

 

Yeah, the NWO match and the Vengeance match had tons of interference, but the bottom line is that Austin at least put over Jericho and didn't expect Jericho to return the favor at the next PPV, which is more than I can say for HHH.

[Guest IB2BLACK]

Loss4Words, didn't Jericho do basically the same thing to HHH, prior to Mania?

[Guest The Hamburglar]

Triple H made Jericho look a thousand times better then Austin ever did in their Last Man Standing match. I remember the Jericho beatdown, i also remember an Austin promo where he basically said that Jericho was nothing and that winning the title would be a formality. The Vengeance and No Way Out matches in no way constituted Austin putting Jericho over. Not once in either match did Jericho look like he could win before the run-in brigade arrived. I don't see why Austin should get a free pass for this stuff, as he not only didn't put Jericho over, he didn't even bother to have good matches with him. All the Jericho-Austin matches I've seen have been pig-awful. Jericho only pinned Austin in the tag after Triple H hit him with a sledgehammer by accident.

[Guest CanadianChick]

Since a lot of people are in agreement that HHH's best asset is his credibility due to his good track record, I will disscuss that.

 

I agree that HHH can make a star, but people are saying that Jericho, RVD, and Booker are too buried to do anything. I have to disagree with this. WWE can puch anybody they want. ANYBODY. It doesn't matter if they were jobbing just a month ago, WWE can push anybody they want at anytime,and they won't seem non-deserving. Don't believe me? Well I have a prime example that just happened recently: Big Show. Last month, do you remember who Big Show was jobbing to? Jeff Hardy. Do you know what he's doing this month? Looking like he is going to beat Lesner, the (real) WWE champion. He probably won't, but the point remains, WWE can push anyone they want.

 

It doesn't matter how buried someone is, if you make them look strong against an unstoppable force, they will be seen as a threat.

[Guest RedJed]

Loss4Words, didn't Jericho do basically the same thing to HHH, prior to Mania?

Jericho got ONE beatdown on HHH prior to Mania, ONE. The rest was....well if you don't know, why bother?

[Guest RedJed]

The Vengeance and No Way Out matches in no way constituted Austin putting Jericho over. Not once in either match did Jericho look like he could win before the run-in brigade arrived.

I'm just curious what your definition of a face putting over a heel is anyway then? Normally it is by screwjob in most cases in some way, shape, or form.

 

I was at the No Way Out ppv and I clearly remember Jericho having a lot of offense in that match. The spot where he had him in the Walls was pretty tight as far as a close-call or "looking like he could win" as you say.

[Guest Loss4Words]

Keep in mind that the No Way Out hype and the Wrestlemania hype were two totally different animals. NWO featured almost no Austin v Jericho hype save for one really bad segment involving Will Sasso. That was it. They didn't bother to acknowledge the feud again until the week before the PPV.

 

Meanwhile, in the HHH feud, it's not that they weren't paying attention to the feud, it's that the feud was HHH v Steph and Jericho was an ornament and was not treated with respect by either HHH or Steph. So HHH leaves Jericho laying countless times every single time they end up near each other and Jericho finally gets a half-hearted beatdown on HHH just right before Wrestlemania. It was convoluted at best.

 

Austin's no saint. I'm not saying that. But he's no HHH either, considering that HHH has feuded with Jericho WAY more than Austin has and HHH hasn't exactly laid down for him on PPV or jobbed two titles to him.

[Guest The Hamburglar]

Oh come on, Jericho needed an entire NWO beatdown to beat Autisn and even then Austin nearly chased them off. Austin never came close to putting Jericho over. I'm not justifying anything Triple H has done, just saying that Austin's just as bad and no-one bitches about it.

 

Loss, the Wrestlemania build-up was more damging to Triple H then to Jericho. Jericho's cred had already been shot to hell by bad booking and Austin, but Triple H still had some of the come-back impetus. Triple H looked like a moron who was constantly outwitted by Stephanie and her man-bitch Jericho, thus leading to a heatless Wrestlemania main event and a one-month title run ending in a job to a geriatric. And he's the smartest man in wrestling? Pooh to that, I say.

[Guest Brian]

Austin semi put over Angle, than booking came into play. Austin coming back has two big jobs left in him. Rock put over Jericho and Lesnar. HHH's credibility has come and gone. He had a chance with alot of guys in 2000 but now no one views a job on his part as making someone. He's not at that level anymore. His comeback was blown, his title reign bombed, his face run ombed, and his heel run has thus far bombed.

[Guest The Hamburglar]

Austin semi put over Angle, than booking came into play. Austin coming back has two big jobs left in him. Rock put over Jericho and Lesnar. HHH's credibility has come and gone. He had a chance with alot of guys in 2000 but now no one views a job on his part as making someone. He's not at that level anymore. His comeback was blown, his title reign bombed, his face run ombed, and his heel run has thus far bombed.

I gots to agree with ya, I don't see how a win over Triple H would help anyone. He's done so many meaningless jobs on free TV that it would come across as hollow and meaningless. As far as I see it, only Austin and Lesnar have any big jobs left, and they need to preserve Lesnar big time.

[Guest Brian]

Rock has a big job left in him. By the time he gets back, like austin, he'll be worth more than when he left.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Austin doesn't catch the sh*t because he usually uses his power for good. He seems to know what's good for the company. A lot of his job refusals were him knowing that something was sh*tty and him not wanting any part in it.

Seriously if it had continued Austin would have jobbed to Benoit in that feud...but he left. Plus Austin could put on a good match if he wanted to but HHH can't do that to save his life. That is why Austin doesn't catch sh*t.

[Guest The Hamburglar]

Austin doesn't catch the sh*t because he usually uses his power for good. He seems to know what's good for the company. A lot of his job refusals were him knowing that something was sh*tty and him not wanting any part in it.

Seriously if it had continued Austin would have jobbed to Benoit in that feud...but he left. Plus Austin could put on a good match if he wanted to but HHH can't do that to save his life. That is why Austin doesn't catch sh*t.

Balls. After he turned face at Survivor Series, Austin was fucking awful in the ring. Absolutely pathetic superface by the numbers stuff, and it got worse and worse before he left. Austin's heel run was great and entertaining for me, but the forty minutes of Austin a week, Austin is the focal point of everything formula that was part of that heel run was not him using his powers for good, but succumbing to his raging ego. That was bad for business. Austin dogged it in the ring during 98 and 99, so no, the good matches thing doesn't make up for it as he simply hasn't been consistent enough over the years for that to be an excuse. You say he would have jobbed to Benoit. How do you know? Because of all those times he jobbed to Benoit before....oh wait, that's right he has never jobbed to benoit one on one. He's also never jobbed to Rock and I stand by my view that he irreparably damaged Jericho's title reign. Austin deserves no excuses, and certainly does not use his power for good.

[Guest CanadianChick]

Since a lot of people are in agreement that HHH's best asset is his credibility due to his good track record, I will disscuss that.

 

I agree that HHH can make a star, but people are saying that Jericho, RVD, and Booker are too buried to do anything. I have to disagree with this. WWE can puch anybody they want. ANYBODY. It doesn't matter if they were jobbing just a month ago, WWE can push anybody they want at anytime,and they won't seem non-deserving. Don't believe me? Well I have a prime example that just happened recently: Big Show. Last month, do you remember who Big Show was jobbing to? Jeff Hardy. Do you know what he's doing this month? Looking like he is going to beat Lesner, the (real) WWE champion. He probably won't, but the point remains, WWE can push anyone they want.

 

It doesn't matter how buried someone is, if you make them look strong against an unstoppable force, they will be seen as a threat.

You guys suck for no-selling my post. Anyways, lets get back on topic. I'm sure that what you guys are arguing about would make a great seperate thread.

[Guest The Hamburglar]

If it makes you feel better, you're pretty much right. If Big Show had any talent to speak of I believe that if they continued to push him as they have been doing then people would overlook his years of jobbing. Unfortunately, his matches just aren't good enough to make him catch on in any long term way.

[Guest cabbageboy]

I won't no sell it. Someone like RVD isn't remotely damaged. All it would take is him winning the title at Survivor Series and he'd be a very over and fresh champion. Thing is, none of the young guys coming up remotely deserve a top spot at this point, not when you have RVD and Booker who haven't gotten such a major push and are more over and deserve it.

 

Booker has jobbed so much that to be honest I think he's beyond hope. Even if he won the title would anyone think he would make a credible champ given the way he's been booked over the past year?

 

Jericho? Ha. He's fucked and forgot.

 

So basically RVD is the only serious option. He has heat that can't be killed, and believe me, they have TRIED.

[Guest RedJed]

Austin doesn't catch the sh*t because he usually uses his power for good. He seems to know what's good for the company. A lot of his job refusals were him knowing that something was sh*tty and him not wanting any part in it.

Seriously if it had continued Austin would have jobbed to Benoit in that feud...but he left. Plus Austin could put on a good match if he wanted to but HHH can't do that to save his life. That is why Austin doesn't catch sh*t.

Balls. After he turned face at Survivor Series, Austin was fucking awful in the ring. Absolutely pathetic superface by the numbers stuff, and it got worse and worse before he left. Austin's heel run was great and entertaining for me, but the forty minutes of Austin a week, Austin is the focal point of everything formula that was part of that heel run was not him using his powers for good, but succumbing to his raging ego. That was bad for business. Austin dogged it in the ring during 98 and 99, so no, the good matches thing doesn't make up for it as he simply hasn't been consistent enough over the years for that to be an excuse. You say he would have jobbed to Benoit. How do you know? Because of all those times he jobbed to Benoit before....oh wait, that's right he has never jobbed to benoit one on one. He's also never jobbed to Rock and I stand by my view that he irreparably damaged Jericho's title reign. Austin deserves no excuses, and certainly does not use his power for good.

Austin actually did do a job to Rock if you remember, at last years Survivor Series. Basically the story there was a full circle that they tried to do, only thing missing was the WWF title change. Austin screwed over Rock at Wrestlemania, and at Survivor Series, Rock basically got the babyface revenge over Austin. No matter the finish, that was the story and it was accomplished.

 

How could he have damaged Jericho's title reign when he did two jobs to him, keep in mind at Vengence Jericho had just had the match with Rock right before Austin came out, so the story there was he already went 15-20 and certainly had no chance of winning, but he did. It's the booking you should be complaining about, not Austin's refusal to do whatever. What the hell did you expect, a heel Jericho to make a babyface comeback on a babyface Austin? That would make no sense. Diddo to the No Way Out match.

 

If anything the Jericho title reign was damaged by the bookers who decided that Jericho as world champ was a second rate fodder to such storylines as Vince-Flair, Steph-HHH, the NWO, etc. Hell, I can't count the number of times Jericho would curtain jerk Raws or Smackdowns. Thats absurd for a world champ, especially one that demands protection in booking to move him up to that next level.

[Guest BifEverchad]

I agree with Chickie, in saying the WWE CAN push anyone they please. Just because a particular wrestler seems to be buried and/or damage, it doesnt mean they cant turn things around and give them another opportunity. Perfect example is, The Big Show. One night he's taking on the 3 Minute Warning, the next he's challenging Brock Lesnar for the Undisputed World Title.

 

With one run-in or beat down and a promo explaining their actions, any wrestler from Booker T to Chris Jericho can be pushed properly into a meaningful and credible angle. It just takes the right booking, which seems to be the BIGGEST problem right now.

[Guest CanadianChick]

It also takes the willingness to push these people. Its beyond me why the wouldn't push the two most over faces on the RAW brand and one of the most, if not the most, over heel on the RAW brand.

[Guest Human Fly]

When has Jericho EVER beaten HHH. It's happened once that I can remember, on tv with HHH coming back with the win the next week on ppv.

 

People talk about Austin not putting Jericho over, but Jericho at least beat Austin. When Jericho was a face and HHH was a heel, HHH went over clean. When Jericho was a heel and HHH was a face, HHH went over clean.

 

Jericho got one beatdown on HHH when Vince and at least 4 other guys (Test, Hardcore Holly, Christian, and Test) came down to help him out.

 

Going back to his first night in the company nobody has put Jericho over more then the Rock, but to say that Austin did nothing for him would be false.

[Guest papacita]

For the Austin vs HHH debate...aside from HHH at No Mercy 99 (which was pretty much a meaningless, forgotten match anyway), Austin never really put anyone except for maybe Angle. During the Invasion, Austin buried almost every Alliance star, first with his 1 on 25 beatdown, then by treating the group like glorified lackies. Fans were almost begging for Tazz to turn and stand up to Austin, but instead he was buried week after week and make to look like a complete joke, and as someone else said, Austin was being put over in just about every segment on Raw and Smackdown, even when he wasn't on the show. While Austin and HHH were guilty of a lot of the same things, HHH gets more heat from Smarks than Austin does because unlike HHH, Austin was actually entertaining. Arguably, the reason that ratings are down right now is that fans are more willing to watch an Austin-dominated Raw and be entertained than they are to watch a HHH-dominated Raw and be bored to sleep.

 

Well, who could he elevate?

 

Booker T?

RVD?

Chris Jericho?

 

They've all been buried.

 

You can make this case for Jericho, but RVD and Booker?! They're probably the two most over guys on the Raw roster right now. RVD was booked strong in his program with HHH, getting the best of him most of the time on Raw and losing via screwjob at Unforgiven (the lumberjack loss was insignificant and I'm sure most marks have forgotten about it by now). His biggest problem is that the writers seem to have forgotten that he exists. And while Booker was made to look like a joke following his program with the Rock last year, he's been handled fairly well since his face turn and is so popular right now that he could job to almost anyone and probably be accepted as a believable champion. Like CanadianChick said, if they're pushing guys like Big Show as a "believable" title threat, they can easily do the same with Booker and RVD.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Point in fact:

 

Unlike HHH and Rock and Undertaker...

 

Austin was literaly the only person drawing the house at one point in time. They couldn't have him go out and put over anyone until he got back from injury, or they'd risk losing all the money he was making.

 

It wasn't a big deal because they had Rock and HHH make each other anyway.

 

When he got back from injury he put over Angle (cleanly tapping I might add, after being made to look like a whining bitch heading into the match) for the title, and then BOOKING dictated he win it back.

 

Then he put over Jericho more than HHH (who has faced him far more times) Ever did. People complain about how the set up for the match was Austin getting the beat down...but what else could they do? MArks needed to abolutely beleive that Austin was so good he would win the title back. Period.

 

Most of what people are complaining about is boking not putting people over.

 

Unlike Austin and Rock...

 

some other people haven't put people over in any way....ever.

[Guest Trivia247]

HHH we speculate or believe or know books and jerks with Storylines...He is performing the same Sin Nash Hogan and others were Guilty of in WCW, being Active wrestlers and Booking events. HHH also got that Main event Slump going. Whenever a Wrestler someone like HHH gets locked into the Main Event world, his capabilities slump. Plus with him at the helm of Raw, he probably thinks he doesn't have to put on the kind of show he use to in 2000.

 

His Motivation is crap now..

 

His respect for other wrestlers at least from our vantage point is between Non to treating them like shit...

 

His suspected Involvement in dissolving all lesser Single titles so he can Shine all by himself.

 

Sleeperholding Lower card wrestlers as if they didn't deserve Pedigrees

 

As Long as HHH remains in the power he is, Raw is going down down down down down down.

 

This Elimination Chamber match will be nothing more impressive but another 6pack Challenge just to make HHH look good beating 5 other guys in a Cage.

 

And HHH neeeeeeed to be on every other segment.

 

ANd now the CONS...

 

LOL!

[Guest Anglesault]

I'd certainly like to know who Austin put over. For an instant it looked like he might put over Angle, but then he won the title back in his first TV appearance since he lost it,

That was a mercy kill of Angle's title reign.

 

before turning face and beating Angle conclusively a few more times.

They were always competitive matches.

[Guest Breetai]

*GASP* Anglesault is actually defending an instance of Angle jobbing?

 

 

*Head explodes*

[Guest Anglesault]

I only have a problem when they are a jobs just for the sake of jobbing him . (Roughly every loss he's had this year) I mean does losing to Edge 73 times REALLY HAVE to happen?

[Guest CanadianChick]

I only have a problem when they are a jobs just for the sake of jobbing him . (Roughly every loss he's had this year) I mean does losing to Edge 73 times REALLY HAVE to happen?

But how many of those matches were significant? I can only remember two clearly and I remember Angle beating Edge in a pretty big match.

[Guest Anglesault]

Basically, before the official start of the feud, it was like Edge 4, Angle 0. Since then, for every big match Angle's beaten Edge in, Edge has at least two big wins over Angle.