So you think Shawn Michaels wasn't a draw?

[Guest pochorenella]

I’m gonna run down a list of all PPVs that were headlined or featured Shawn Michaels in the Main Event between 1996 and early 1998 before the Austin Era. Then I’m gonna run down all PPVs that Austin headlined in 1998 (his “Golden Era”, so to speak). I’m also gonna list all the attendances for each PPV and wether they were sellouts or not. At the end I’ll do a little analysis and comparing same arena attendance. Here goes:

 

Shawn Michaels

WrestleMania XII. Arrowhead Pond, Anahein, CA 18,852 attendance

IYH: Good Friends... Civic Auditorium, Omaha, NE 9,563 sellout

IYH: Beware of Dog. 6,000 (aprox.)

KOTR 96. The Mecca, Milwaukee, WI 13,000 sellout

IYH: Int’l Incident. General Motors Palace, Vancouver, BC 14,804

SummerSlam 96. Gund Arena, Cleveland, OH 17,000

IYH: Mind Games. CoreStates Center, Philadelphia, PA 15,000

Survivor Series 96. Madison Square Garden 18,647

Royal Rumble 97. Alamo Dome, San Antonio, TX 60,525

SummerSlam 97. Continental Airlines Arena, East Rutherford, NJ 20,000

Ground Zero. Louisville Gardens, Louisville, KY 6,000

Badd Blodd. Kiel Center, St. Louis, MO 21,151

Survivor Series 97. Molson Centre, Montreal, Quebec 20,593

Royal Rumble 98. San Jose Arena, San Jose, CA 16,661 sellout

WrestleMania XIV. Fleet Center, Boston, MA 15,681

 

Steve Austin

Unforgiven 98. 20,268 sellout

Over The Edge 98. 9,822 sellout

KOTR 98. 16,505 sellout

Fully Loaded 98. 9,855

SummerSlam 98. Madison Square Garden 15,274

Judgment Day 98. 16,458 sellout

Breakdown 98. 16,158

Survivor Series 98. Kiel Center, St. Louis, MO 19,322 sellout

Royal Rumble 99. Arrowhead Pond, Anaheim, CA 14,816

 

Now the analysis: Obviously, Austin has more sellout shows than HBK, but if we look closely at the figures we can find some interesting stuff. WM XII outdrew RR 99 by far. S.Series 96 on MSG, even if it wasn’t a sellout, outdrew WM X (18,065 sellout) and Summerslam 98 - perhaps the worst-drawing PPV event in MSG history, even with all the buildup for Austin/Taker. In 1997, HBK has the four top-drawing shows of the year, including the Texas show (an amazing 60,525) and Badd Blodd, which outdrew S.Series 98. WM XIV, even with the massive buyrate, wasn’t a sellout, and this was Austin’s breakout show. S.Series 97, Bret’s farewell show in Canada, wasn’t a sellout.

 

I’m not trying to diss Austin in any way, he’s one of my favorites, but all HBK-haters claim he was a lousy draw and business was shit, but they only base that opinion on PPV buyrates, when we can clearly see that he had some good crowds, including a monster 60,000+, and he gave ****+ matches across the board, too. Isn’t that important? Could it be that maybe poor buyrates are not entirely Michaels fault? Austin didn’t sell out every damn PPV, did he? House show figures I don’t know, so if anyone knows them, feel free to post them. Also any corrections and opinions are welcome.

[Guest HartFan86]

WM XII outdrew RR 99 by far.

 

Cause it's Wrestlemania. Just cause Wrestlemania XII out drew Rumble 99...hell, Mania XVI didn't outdraw XII, but it made a shit load more money.

 

From ProWrestlingHistory.Com:

 

Arrowhead Pond drawing 18,852 ($737,440) (Mania XII)

Anaheim Pond drawing 18,034 ($1,347,800) (Mania XVI)

 

In 1997, HBK has the four top-drawing shows of the year, including the Texas show (an amazing 60,525)

 

Which was mostly paper (If your talking about Rumble 97.)

 

S.Series 96 on MSG, even if it wasn’t a sellout, outdrew WM X (18,065 sellout) and Summerslam 98 - perhaps the worst-drawing PPV event in MSG history, even with all the buildup for Austin/Taker.

 

And that wasn't cause of HBK...it was for Bret Hart's return. Sure, you could attribute some of it, but being realistic it was for Bret/Austin (Which paid off huge, while HBK/Sid did for the short term, but not for the long term.)

 

I think some of your facts are off. ProWrestlingHistory.com is the best source. Try going there.

[Guest Mad Dog]

Austin brought WWF back to the No.1 spot. Michaels didn't.

[Guest bob_barron]

Where are you getting your stats from??

 

prowrestlinghistory.com lists Summerslam 98 attendance as-

 

21,588

 

They also list Unforgiven 98 as 21,427

 

Breakdown at 17,405

 

and XIV at 19,028

[Guest snowfan]

Austin brought WWF back to the No.1 spot. Michaels didn't.

absolutely right...

 

Yawn was never the draw Austin was and had the benefit of Hart during 5/6ths of his time on top.

[Guest bob_barron]

also KOTR 96 only drew 8,000 according to prowrestlinghistory.

 

 

Ground Zero drew a little less then 5,000 according to prowrestlinghistory.

 

Also- HBK didnt wrestle at Summerslam 97

[Guest papacita]

S.Series 96 on MSG, even if it wasn’t a sellout, outdrew WM X (18,065 sellout) and Summerslam 98 - perhaps the worst-drawing PPV event in MSG history, even with all the buildup for Austin/Taker.

 

And that wasn't cause of HBK...it was for Bret Hart's return. Sure, you could attribute some of it, but being realistic it was for Bret/Austin (Which paid off huge, while HBK/Sid did for the short term, but not for the long term.)

While I think HBK was a better draw than a lot of people give him credit for, Hartfan's right about Survivor Series. There's no way that show would've done as well as it did without Hart and Austin.

[Guest FeArHaVoC]

It's really not fair to compare other people to how they "Draw" next to a Austin or Hogan. Austin & Hogan were freaks and amazing draws. They were "Special." You can't expect everyone to draw like them.

[Guest pochorenella]

Like I said before, I'm not trying to diss neither Austin nor Hart, for that matter. I know both of them were top draws during their time. I'm just trying to point out that PPV attendance during Michaels run wasn't the shit everybody claims it to be, even though the buyrates WERE shit.

 

Austin brought WWF back to the No.1 spot. Michaels didn't

 

I'm not disputing that. I'd be stupid if I did. You'r missing my point.

 

I think some of your facts are off. ProWrestlingHistory.com is the best source. Try going there

 

I checked that site like you said, and in fact they difer from my info on a lot of stuff. My info comes from statistics I've been piling up over the years, not from one or other website, so who knows? I also can't give credit to the WWF announcers who claim at the beginning of every show that it's sold out, can I? They say that everytime.

 

Also- HBK didnt wrestle at Summerslam 97

 

I didn't say he wrestled there, I said he was "involved" in the Main Event. He was guest referee.

 

So what is the official, "non-paper" figure for Royal Rumble 97? It's still gonna be THE top drawing event for that year, right?

 

Of course, capacity on each arena varies depending on seats configurations, set configurations and stuff like that. MSG ofter had 20,000+ sellouts for PPV events on Hogan's time.

 

Again, all comments and fact corrections are very welcome. And I think this is a great discussion: Who really is the top draw? The guy who wrestles the Main Event (by that I mean the very last on the show) or somebody from the mid-card?

 

Food for thought.

[Guest snowfan]

It's really not fair to compare other people to how they "Draw" next to a Austin or Hogan. Austin & Hogan were freaks and amazing draws. They were "Special." You can't expect everyone to draw like them.

but Yawn attempts to carry himself as "the Greatest" and that just doesn't hold up on a lot of levels...

 

he was good, no hell great but "greatest"???

[Guest FeArHaVoC]

Yeah, but many people say Flair was the Greatest, yet he didn't Draw anything Great.

 

I think Bret & Shawn both drew more then him at times. Of Course, I'm comparing WWf to NWA/WcW here.

[Guest HartFan86]

So what is the official, "non-paper" figure for Royal Rumble 97? It's still gonna be THE top drawing event for that year, right?

 

We will never know. 60,525 (According to ProWrestlingHistory.com) walked into watch Rumble 97. I'm guessing around 50,000 of them did pay. Maybe less than that. Not sure what the top drawing show of 97 was, but this was probably it.

 

Who really is the top draw? The guy who wrestles the Main Event (by that I mean the very last on the show) or somebody from the mid-card?

 

Guys like Hogan, Austin, Hart, Rock, etc....people specifically pay to watch these guys preform because they are that good at what they do. It's not always the main event match. I know for a fact Mania 18 wouldn't have gotten the numbers it did if it wasn't for Hogan/Rock because Jericho/HHH sucked.

 

IMO, it's usually specifically on a certain match or certain people at the show that draws.

[Guest crandamaniac]

Not flaming you or anything, but looking at the numbers don't really mean that much. You have to look at a lot more then just attendance numbers for specific events. Comparing events held at the same arena would be a better comparision. Plus throw in the PPV buyrates. That'll make it more accurate

[Guest HartFan86]

Not flaming you or anything, but looking at the numbers don't really mean that much. You have to look at a lot more then just attendance numbers for specific events. Comparing events held at the same arena would be a better comparision. Plus throw in the PPV buyrates. That'll make it more accurate

Just curious...who are you directing that towards?

[Guest bob_barron]

On attendance- for the most part some of those could be papered or what not so it really doesnt make WWF/E any money.

 

PPVs are a guaranteed $20-30 (however much they cost back then)

[Guest HartFan86]

By the way, check this out for Rumble 97.

 

Prowrestlinghistory.com:

 

AlamoDome drawing 60,525 ($480,013)

 

 

60,000 people at the event with only a gross of $480,013?

 

I wouldn't be surprised if 40,000 only paid.

[Guest notJames]

That's a telling tale, considering Michaels was going in as the plucky challenger seeking revenge against the conniving, manager-assaulting champion Sid. Easiest story in the book, but Michaels wasn't enough of a draw to get people to pay to see it.

 

And yeah, you have to look at all the extenuating circumstances (buyrates, attendance, gross, TV ratings leading up to the shows, etc.) and judging from all of that, I still think Michaels isn't worthy of being called a tremendous draw.

 

Thank god for the MSG incident. Otherwise we never would've seen the birth of Austin 3:16 at KOTR. At least the Kliq was good for something, eh?

[Guest crandamaniac]

Not flaming you or anything, but looking at the numbers don't really mean that much.  You have to look at a lot more then just attendance numbers for specific events.  Comparing events held at the same arena would be a better comparision.  Plus throw in the PPV buyrates.  That'll make it more accurate

Just curious...who are you directing that towards?

pochorenella

[Guest Goodear]

That's a telling tale, considering Michaels was going in as the plucky challenger seeking revenge against the conniving, manager-assaulting champion Sid. Easiest story in the book, but Michaels wasn't enough of a draw to get people to pay to see it.

Well, you are aware that Sid sucks the meat missile and everyone knows it right? It's why I give guys like Nash a bit of a break for his poor gates as WWF champion, he was facing really pitiful opponents that no one cared about except for Shawn and Bret. No one is going to draw against Sid, Mable, and (later day) British Bulldog. Without the Foleys, Orndorffs, and Pipers; the main draws would have failed as well.

[Guest Paranoid]

Ok course Austin and Hulk were bigger drawers. But they are the only ones that did out draw Shawn.

[Guest notJames]

That's a telling tale, considering Michaels was going in as the plucky challenger seeking revenge against the conniving, manager-assaulting champion Sid. Easiest story in the book, but Michaels wasn't enough of a draw to get people to pay to see it.

Well, you are aware that Sid sucks the meat missile and everyone knows it right?

That's a given, of course. But yes, I see your point.

 

However, I distinctly recall that people actually cheered when Sid beat HBK for the belt at SurSer '97. Is this an indication of how poorly Shawn was drawing as a champ, or more a barometer for the perennially cynical NYC crowd? 'Cuz I would think if Shawn was a popular champ, this wouldn't have happened, especially with a smart crowd that values workrate over size.

[Guest webmasterofwrestlegame]

Another thing to consider is rate of inflation (boring I know but otherwise the figures stated are warped) and also how many seats were available to buy (due to production sets etc.)

[Guest snowfan]

Ok course Austin and Hulk were bigger drawers. But they are the only ones that did out draw Shawn.

The Rock, and Bret arguably...

[Guest pochorenella]

Wow, a thread of mine that actually has responses! This is cool!

 

QUOTE (HartFan86 @ Nov 21 2002, 10:35 AM)

QUOTE (crandamaniac @ Nov 21 2002, 11:33 AM)

Not flaming you or anything, but looking at the numbers don't really mean that much.  You have to look at a lot more then just attendance numbers for specific events.  Comparing events held at the same arena would be a better comparision.  Plus throw in the PPV buyrates.  That'll make it more accurate

 

Just curious...who are you directing that towards?

 

pochorenella

 

No offense taken, crandamaniac. I welcome all rational debate and all discussion as well. But comparing events at the same arena is EXACTLY what I did, like my Madison Square Garden example. Curious that some events at the same arena sell out while others don't even though they have more people on attendance. But like I said before, sometimes it depends on seat/ring arrangements and stuff like that.

 

If anybody can also add PPV buyrates to compare here you're welcome to do so.

 

However, I distinctly recall that people actually cheered when Sid beat HBK for the belt at SurSer '97. Is this an indication of how poorly Shawn was drawing as a champ, or more a barometer for the perennially cynical NYC crowd? 'Cuz I would think if Shawn was a popular champ, this wouldn't have happened, especially with a smart crowd that values workrate over size.

 

Just listen to the ovation Michaels got when he won the Elimination Chamber match at SS2002. That was also at MSG so I think it's the NYC crowd more than likely.

 

I think the poor undercard performers while Shawn was on top didn't help him any. Ahmed Johnson, Ultimate Warrior in 4 minute non-matches. Stuff like that can really kill a card no matter how good the Main Event was, because Shawn had ****+ matches with almost anybody, even Sid.

[Guest Brian]

Yeah, but many people say Flair was the Greatest, yet he didn't Draw anything Great.

I think that can be argued big time though it will be tough to find numbers. Flair was drawing big in a lot of different territories, and I think there were some huge increases considering that he didn't get as much exposure as most of the other guys.

[Guest pochorenella]

I think Flair drew over 45,000 in Texas Stadium on his NWA Title loss to Kerry Von Erich, but I think that can be mostly attributed to Von Erich and his Texan fans.

[Guest Brian]

But Von Erich was playing off Flair too. Flair being the champ and making so many local faces look good and credible was what made him a great draw.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

Ok course Austin and Hulk were bigger drawers.  But they are the only ones that did out draw Shawn.

The Rock, and Bret arguably...

Every WWF Champion in history, with the exception of Sid, outdrew Shawn. I posted the buyrates after Survivor Series, and I can't remember them off-hand, but Michaels drew roughly half of what Bret Hart drew (and about 50% less than Diesel). Michaels drew ONE good buyrate in his career (Wrestlemania XIV) and that can completely be attributed to Austin's big win. Austin winning his first WWF Title from Kurrgan would have popped a great buyrate.

 

Someone posted the ratings too, but I forget who. Anyways, during Bret Hart's title run in 1996 they were drawing from 3-4. Michaels sunk that to around 2.0 by October.

 

Sid was worse, but things started looking up (a bit) after Wrestlemania XIII.

 

Both Rock & HHH drew great ratings in 2000. So did Savage in 1988-1989. Warrior tanked the business for awhile, but even he outdrew Michaels. Same with Diesel. In 1997, Taker & Bret were slowly raising buyrates as champs, but ratings plummetted for D-Generation X, which was Shawn's first major title defense, and remained low for Royal Rumble and No Way Out (which Shawn wasn't at). Shawn was done at Wrestlemania, and Austin led the company to greatness.

[Guest OSIcon]

The whole concept of a wrestler being a "draw" is usually blown out of proportion. On the WWF level, the only individuals that were draws for an extended period of time (and not just one show) were Hogan, Austin, and the Rock. These are the only guys who you can really credit with drawing in fans for an extended time during their respective runs atop the card.

 

Drawing for one PPV doesn't make a wrestler a draw per say. With the right build, any main event wrestler that is over can conceivably draw a crowd or a high buyrate for one PPV.

 

It is weather people go to houe shows, buy PPVs, and merchandise all because of one wrestler that constitutes a wrestler being a true draw. Michaels never did this.

[Guest razazteca]

the San Antonio Alamo Dome is basically a football arena. The other locations look to be Basketball or Hockey arenas.

 

everything in Texas are big