WWF in Japan

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

exactly

[Guest mastermind]

First I want to get across the message that *I* didn't make those comments. All I said was I was amazed that the wwf didn't have any match under five minutes which really shouldn't be a surprise as it was basically a house show. I copied and pasted the whole post from another forum because I just felt like working as hard as Kevin Nash. I can't really comment on the Japanese product when I have only seen a handful of matches. There seemed to be good ones and bad ones just as here. I actually seen more back in the day Japanese wrestling through Ric Flair matches. Dare I say I won't assume the whole product was good as Flair/Fujinami etc. because it's freaking Flair in his prime in the match.

 

I don't know man. I like both Bret and Shawn, but I think Shawn was much smoother in that ring. I have a match from RAW where Shawn bumps and sells and tells a better story than the match Bret had with Yoko at WM 9(Shawn's only hope of winning fair was the superkick). People forget about matches like this during the time period. People also commend Bret/Owen matches, but do some people forget HBK's match with Owen before WM 12? I think that match is actually better than the ironman match.

 

Shawn also had much more revolutionary matches. The first one obviously was the ladder match at Mania. He then had the rematch which was excellent with Scott Hall. Even their normal matches were solid. They matched up better than Hall/Bret. I also think technically, that the Shawn/Bulldog series was better in 1996 than the IYH match and SummerSlam match with Bret/Davey. The drama was higher because of the family ties. I still think to this day that Jarret's best match ever was against Shawn Michaels when he regained the I-C title in 1995. Another forgotten gem.

 

It has also become folklore that HBK didn't draw, while it is recorded that HBK and the wwf from Janurary-May was doing its best business since the dark age. About HBK being pissed about Bret and the wwf "slighting" him you have to consider that HBK was suppose to be paid the highest on the roster. Bret got a contract that was paying more and also gave job security after. HBK in 1995 was working like a mad man. I think his 1997 stunts made people forget how much of a work-a-holic he was.

 

Benoit, Guerrero, Juventud were well above Shawn in workrate? I don't know man. I'm sure if you had put Shawn in there with them he would outshine them. YES, even Benoit. Put these guys in matches with Sid(Benoit couldn't get a good match out of him), Nash, Vader, Jerry Lawler, Tatanka, etc and see how they fare.

 

Has anyone seen HBK/Flair? That was before HBK hit his prime and he is step to step with Flair(unless Flair really made him look good). Bret is fantastic, but he did fall into a groove a lot of times. I remember CLEARLY the net crying out that Bret was boring doing the same sequence(Hell, check old SK stuff for one example). HBK was more like RVD with trying to be more innovative.

[Guest Brian]

Shanw overshadowed everyone when he was in the ring. It was the way he was. Bret/Flair from 1992 is better than any match Michaels had.

[Guest One Bad Apple]

Haven't seen any Mutoh in the last year have you Mike? >>

 

Nope. Refused to watch another match of his after 2000.

 

Amazing that one allegedly good year overcomes at least 6 years of unmitigated crap.

                         -=Mike

 

...And they say American fans tolerate crap too easily.

Can't really judge the product unless you watch it mikey

He didn't judge anything. He just said it doesn't make up for years of sub-par work.

 

mike wouldn't know he doesn't watch he just ASSUMES that mutoh still's lazy. what's the old line about when you assume you make an ass out of u and me? oh wait that was the line, cool.

 

How can you, of all people, call someone an ass?

 

Although I'm kind of repeating myself here ... he didn't say Mutoh was still lazy. He said it doesn't make up for the lazy performances he's had over the past six years.

 

And you know what they say about assuming.

 

 

 

Now, I've never said the style sucks but it's severely limiting and seems to pass over the better workers while playing to biases of big, white males.

 

If the big, white males make up the majority of the audience and they don't want to see better workers, it's not smart to give them better workers. Assuming you are talking about the fans.

 

 

 

BS stunts like Hayabusa breaking his neck?  He broke it doing a move that Jericho does all the time.  It's not like he jumped off scaffolding like Grimes or flies through tables off ladders every chance he gets like Jeff Hardy.  See, I can judge all of American wrestling on a few bad instances as well as you can just puro on one mistake.

 

How is going through a table a "bad instance"? And it's not like Jeff even does them that often.

[Guest Brian]

"If the big, white males make up the majority of the audience and they don't want to see better workers, it's not smart to give them better workers. Assuming you are talking about the fans."

 

How can they know what the like if they've been force-fed wrestlers and a certain style without getting exposed to a different style?

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"Benoit, Guerrero, Juventud were well above Shawn in workrate? I don't know man. I'm sure if you had put Shawn in there with them he would outshine them. YES, even Benoit. Put these guys in matches with Sid(Benoit couldn't get a good match out of him), Nash, Vader, Jerry Lawler, Tatanka, etc and see how they fare."

 

Shawn Michaels is a wrestler that used his stengths to his advantages.  He hid his numerous flaws with his few strengths.  Let's break down Shawn Michaels the wrestler.  

 

* Michaels was a GREAT carrier.  No doubt about that.  He took Nash and Sid to levels that they would never see in WCW, though I can argue the 1/00 Benoit v Sid PPV match as an example of a more thoughtout, well rounded match compared to the Sid/Michaels bout.  In this aspect, I would say he was better than Benoit and Guerrero, though I have seen Juvi do just as many good carry jobs, in the form of making Rey Jr. focus on more than highspots and actually work a story oriented match, as well as having a good match with a debuting Perro Aguayo Jr, who was a fairly shitty worker, just as Sid and Nash are, in some ways worse.

 

* Michaels was a bumper.  He bumped for anyone and everyone.  He took dangerous risks just to make himself and others look good.  With guys like Nash and Sid, he would let them throw him all around and in turn, give the impression the match was actually good.  Where as in WCW, Nash couldn't throw Hogan, Hall, Sting, Savage, etc around like rag dolls and thus the matches suffered.  Yet, if you take away Michaels insane bumps, the matches aren't very different from the WCW one's except that Michaels was willing to work his ass off, unlike Hogan, Nash, Hall, Savage, etc.

 

Those are his two primary stengths in the ring.  But his flaws far outweight his strengths.

 

* Michaels move set was limited.  "But so was Flair's and we is considered great."  The key differences are that Flair's moveset in the late 80's (his prime) was passable as US standard offense.  Windham brought a better heavy offense for the time, as well the Midnight Express doing the same.  But fast forward to 1996, where Michaels was in his prime as a worker.  His moveset was limited for not only a 1996 worldwide offense, but for a 1996 US offense.  This comes up later when we compare world wide workers to Michaels in 1996.

 

* His psych is below standard.  See below for further explanation.

 

Now back to the original little quote at the top.  As far as I see it, the workers who were above Michaels in 1996, would be as follows:

 

Misawa

Kawada

Juventud Guerrera

Shinjiro Otani

Jushin Liger

Chris Benoit*

Eddy Guerrero

El Hijo del Santo

Ultimo Dragon

Shinya Hashimoto

 

In terms of moveset, psych, and carrying ability, Misawa, Kawada, Juve, Liger, Dragon, Santo, and Hashimoto are as good and in most cases better than Michaels at these respective issues.  Misawa and Kawada were doing stuff in 1990-1992 that Michaels wasn't even approaching in 1996 at his height.  

 

Now before everyone goes off, puro this, puro that.  My Wrestler of the Year for 2001 was Steve Austin.  So I am not totally biased but the arguments being presented here are not valid and don't show why Michaels was better.  I would go more in depth but I don't have the time right now but if you present the arguments, I would be more than happy to respond.

 

And to the guy who said that Vader's only good match was against Michaels, guess again.  In 1993, Vader was better than Michaels in 1996 and was doing higher level stuff with weak workers like Simmons and Davey Boy Smith......as well as bringing a competant Sting to matches that Michaels could only dream of having.  That's not even going into his UWF-I stuff.  Oh yea, and in 1996, when everyone said he was washed up, he carried Inoki to a match tha Michaels could have never brought Inoki to.

 

Tim

[Guest TheMikeSC]

"If the big, white males make up the majority of the audience and they don't want to see better workers, it's not smart to give them better workers. Assuming you are talking about the fans."

 

How can they know what the like if they've been force-fed wrestlers and a certain style without getting exposed to a different style? >>

 

1) The Japanese workers who work that style won't be here very long, so using a style that they use seems rather counter-productive.

 

2) Especally if we're discussing the AJPW main event style (haven't seen NOAH yet, but I don't imagine they've changed the AJPW style too much), there is no way I'd let the guys do it. Too risky for the talent and, honestly, it never worked for me. Much ado about forearms, clotheslines, and no-selling.

                       -=Mike

[Guest TheMikeSC]

"Benoit, Guerrero, Juventud were well above Shawn in workrate? I don't know man. I'm sure if you had put Shawn in there with them he would outshine them. YES, even Benoit. Put these guys in matches with Sid(Benoit couldn't get a good match out of him), Nash, Vader, Jerry Lawler, Tatanka, etc and see how they fare."

 

Shawn Michaels is a wrestler that used his stengths to his advantages.  He hid his numerous flaws with his few strengths.  Let's break down Shawn Michaels the wrestler.  

 

* Michaels was a GREAT carrier.  No doubt about that.  He took Nash and Sid to levels that they would never see in WCW, though I can argue the 1/00 Benoit v Sid PPV match as an example of a more thoughtout, well rounded match compared to the Sid/Michaels bout.  In this aspect, I would say he was better than Benoit and Guerrero, though I have seen Juvi do just as many good carry jobs, in the form of making Rey Jr. focus on more than highspots and actually work a story oriented match, as well as having a good match with a debuting Perro Aguayo Jr, who was a fairly shitty worker, just as Sid and Nash are, in some ways worse.

 

* Michaels was a bumper.  He bumped for anyone and everyone.  He took dangerous risks just to make himself and others look good.  With guys like Nash and Sid, he would let them throw him all around and in turn, give the impression the match was actually good.  Where as in WCW, Nash couldn't throw Hogan, Hall, Sting, Savage, etc around like rag dolls and thus the matches suffered.  Yet, if you take away Michaels insane bumps, the matches aren't very different from the WCW one's except that Michaels was willing to work his ass off, unlike Hogan, Nash, Hall, Savage, etc.

 

Those are his two primary stengths in the ring.  But his flaws far outweight his strengths.

 

* Michaels move set was limited.  "But so was Flair's and we is considered great."  The key differences are that Flair's moveset in the late 80's (his prime) was passable as US standard offense.  Windham brought a better heavy offense for the time, as well the Midnight Express doing the same.  But fast forward to 1996, where Michaels was in his prime as a worker.  His moveset was limited for not only a 1996 worldwide offense, but for a 1996 US offense.  This comes up later when we compare world wide workers to Michaels in 1996.>>

 

I don't think his moveset was too limited. It wasn't a massive moveset, but movesets are usually overrated.

 

<<* His psych is below standard.  See below for further explanation.

 

Now back to the original little quote at the top.  As far as I see it, the workers who were above Michaels in 1996, would be as follows:

 

Misawa

Kawada

Juventud Guerrera

Shinjiro Otani

Jushin Liger

Chris Benoit*

Eddy Guerrero

El Hijo del Santo

Ultimo Dragon

Shinya Hashimoto

 

In terms of moveset, psych, and carrying ability, Misawa, Kawada, Juve, Liger, Dragon, Santo, and Hashimoto are as good and in most cases better than Michaels at these respective issues.  Misawa and Kawada were doing stuff in 1990-1992 that Michaels wasn't even approaching in 1996 at his height.  >>

 

I disagree because none of them did the thing that seperates the good workers from the bad ones---they didn't drag good matches out of bad workers.

 

I like Ohtani's work as much as anybody, but when the worst worker you work with (arguably) is El Samurai, well, it's not quite like having to work with the likes of Nash or Sid. Ditto Liger. And Misawa had a very limited collection of people he worked with and, honestly, his matches didn't do a thing for me. They were much ado about elbows, clotheslines, and no-selling and, to me, weren't all than engaging.

 

Most of the guys on your list had A-list guys to work with 90% of the time and that allows them to put on better matches---but none of those guys proved that they could deliver quality work with inept opposition.

 

To me, carrying people is THE biggest dividing line between greatness and simply being good. It's why I consider Flair and Michaels the two best workers ever--because they could carry far lesser workers to matches far above the work the opposition was performing at the time.

 

<<Now before everyone goes off, puro this, puro that.  My Wrestler of the Year for 2001 was Steve Austin.  So I am not totally biased but the arguments being presented here are not valid and don't show why Michaels was better.  I would go more in depth but I don't have the time right now but if you present the arguments, I would be more than happy to respond.

 

And to the guy who said that Vader's only good match was against Michaels, guess again.  In 1993, Vader was better than Michaels in 1996 and was doing higher level stuff with weak workers like Simmons and Davey Boy Smith......as well as bringing a competant Sting to matches that Michaels could only dream of having.>>

 

I was referring to Vader's WWF stint which, and let's be frank here, stunk up the joint. Vader in the WWF was out of shape and completely incapable of working good matches. The ONLY guy to get anything out of him at the time was Shawn. In WCW, Vader was MUCH better and the drop-off between his WCW and WWF stints is mind-boggling.

 

<<That's not even going into his UWF-I stuff.  Oh yea, and in 1996, when everyone said he was washed up, he carried Inoki to a match tha Michaels could have never brought Inoki to.>>

 

I imagine Shawn could've carried Inoki to a spectacular match.

                            -=Mike

[Guest Brian]

I don't think many wrestlers ever could have gotten a good match out of 1996 Inoki, let alone that good of a match.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"I disagree because none of them did the thing that seperates the good workers from the bad ones---they didn't drag good matches out of bad workers."

 

Here is where that argument is flawed.  Misawa/Kawada, though two great workers in their own right, took the level of storytelling and pysch to a new level in 6/3/94.  They built off the 6/5/89 Tsuruta/Tenyru match advancing the genre.  Technically it is not carrying, but I would rather see advancing than carrying in terms of what makes a great match.  

 

"I like Ohtani's work as much as anybody, but when the worst worker you work with (arguably) is El Samurai, well, it's not quite like having to work with the likes of Nash or Sid. Ditto Liger. And Misawa had a very limited collection of people he worked with and, honestly, his matches didn't do a thing for me. They were much ado about elbows, clotheslines, and no-selling and, to me, weren't all than engaging.":

 

It's really simple.  Put Michael's best matches of 1996 up against the best of those listed previously and they are worlds apart.  It's not even close.  

 

So if you like Michaels, no problem.  But to say that Michaels is a better worker than those listed above because he brought Nash and Sid to **1/2-*** matches, then I don't know what to say.

 

Tim

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I disagree because none of them did the thing that seperates the good workers from the bad ones---they didn't drag good matches out of bad workers."

 

Here is where that argument is flawed.  Misawa/Kawada, though two great workers in their own right, took the level of storytelling and pysch to a new level in 6/3/94.  They built off the 6/5/89 Tsuruta/Tenyru match advancing the genre.  Technically it is not carrying, but I would rather see advancing than carrying in terms of what makes a great match. >>

 

And I disagree.

 

I, personally, found the Misawa v Kawada matches to be less than enthralling. Again, to me,  AJPW ME matches tended to be much ado about elbows, clotheslines, and no-selling. I can come up with various psychological discussions about matches, but for the most part, I attribute any of that to blind luck and not any actual planning. The matches had selling that was about as spotty as Rob Van Dam's---and that's awfully darned spotty.

 

Unless Misawa could carry somebody inept (I'm trying to think of AJPW's worst worker in 1996--Wolf Hawkfield is about as bad as I can come up with) to a good match, then he's a lesser worker. Maybe he did so, bu lord known I've never seen the match---then again, I never went out of my way to get any Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi/Akiyama match.

 

If you work with the same opponent every single match and your matches happen to work with the fans, then it skews your ability. If Shawn wrestled nobody but Mick Foley in his career (since they seemed to mesh quite well for their PPV match), then he would've had nothing below **** on his resume.

 

But, taking a guy who traditionally works DUD matches and dragging a ***1/2 affair out of them (as HBK did with Sid at SSeries '96), then THAT is a sign of true greatness.

 

<<"I like Ohtani's work as much as anybody, but when the worst worker you work with (arguably) is El Samurai, well, it's not quite like having to work with the likes of Nash or Sid. Ditto Liger. And Misawa had a very limited collection of people he worked with and, honestly, his matches didn't do a thing for me. They were much ado about elbows, clotheslines, and no-selling and, to me, weren't all than engaging.":

 

It's really simple.  Put Michael's best matches of 1996 up against the best of those listed previously and they are worlds apart.  It's not even close.  >>

 

I HAVE done so and Shawn comes out far ahead.

 

Stick Shawn in the ring with Kawada and you'll have a ***** match.

 

Stick Misawa in the ring with Nash and if you hit **, I'll be stunned.

 

<<So if you like Michaels, no problem.  But to say that Michaels is a better worker than those listed above because he brought Nash and Sid to **1/2-*** matches, then I don't know what to say.>>

 

Say "I guess you like different things". Say "I guess the AJPW style doesn' appeal to you"---which it does not, in any way, do.

 

I've yet to see a Misawa match I'd give **** to.

                             -=Mike

 

...Anybody can work good matches with good opposition---working good matches with BAD opposition is the talent

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I'd hate to pull a Lance Storm here, but we can not fully judge how great a worker is since we have not wrestled them.

 

HBK was 210 soaking wet, he was a lightweight.  Put TAKA 1996 against sid/diesel in a 15 minute match I am pretty sure it would be equally as good.

 

I just like the aura around an All Japan Main Event, it is treated much differently than a Wwf ME.  Its treated more 'real'.  

 

My favorite Wwf match is Hart vs Piper WM 8, that had textbook psychology and great wrestling.  Thats what I find in the great AJ main events.

[Guest Choken One]

You guys take obsessiveness to a new level. Bottom Line? Shawn was a great PERFORMER. Not even the puro smarks can refute that.

[Guest mastermind]

I can't comment on the Japanese as I will admit my viewing is limited of their work. However, let me say that I think Shawn has to be considered because workers in the business have admitted that Shawn Michaels is sort of a chameleon in the ring. He adapts very well to whatever match he is asked to do. Not everyone can have an excellent hell in a cell match. Taker couldn't come close in terms of the workrate with Foley or Boss Man. The ladder match with Scott Hall is another form of adapting. He then has an ironman match.

 

He also went "hardcore" with Foley(including a match on RAW). He could put on matches with bigger opponents and look credible for the most part. I haven't seen anyone say these great workers have the same depth of match quality for different types of matches. That is a sign of greatness and that's why I put him ahead of Bret Hart. Dave Meltzer a man people respect as a true insider has also put HBK above a lot of the Japanese stars as well with the exception of one which I can't recall right now. Don't forget that HBK and wwf guys are asked to perform on a much more grueling schedule. If some say Flair is in these Japanese guys league then I can't see how HBK can be that far off from their talent. I may get flamed, but I think HBK was actually more athletic and glitzy than the Nature Boy in his matches. I admit though I haven't really seen a slew of Japan's best matches, so I would be a little bias. However, Michael Jordan in America is Michael Jordan in Japan in my opinion.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"You guys take obsessiveness to a new level. Bottom Line? Shawn was a great PERFORMER. Not even the puro smarks can refute that."

 

Hogan is considered a great performer.....it doesn't make him a great wrestler.  

 

Tim, offended at being called a "Puro Smark"

[Guest TRG]

I think this might settle the Michaels debate.

 

http://www.a1wrestling.com/dcforum/DCForumID14/1074.html#29

[Guest Spanky]

I think Shawn's carrying is overrated.  He put on The Shawn Show, bumping his ass off.  Sometimes that's what you gotta do with guys like Sid or Nash, but I think people make too big a deal out of it.  I'd say Jumbo thinking his way through a transcedant match with Tenryu is more impressive, but YMMV.

 

Anyway, I'm not sure that Shawn was even the best wrestler in North America in 1996, nevermind the world.  He was up there, no doubt, but I'm not convinced that he was better than Rey Jr. or Ultimo Dragon.

 

As for the puro guys not carrying anyone... I gotta disagree.  I saw Misawa & Akiyama carry limited Steve Williams & Johnny Ace through a match that smoked anything Shawn did in 1996.  And while it wasn't carrying, I'd say that Misawa, Akiyama, Kawada, and Taue putting on the greatest match I've ever seen in the Tag League finale was much more impressive than having a decent match with Sid.  Once again, YMMV.

 

 

Simon,

thought Shawn's match with Vader kinda sucked...

[Guest Moleculo]

I know this is obscenely late,but IMO Shawn Michaels was the best worker ever (along with Flair).I'd agree with the points brought up before,and add the fact that he was extremely consistent in his match quality,putting out great house-show matches (I was able to see 4 or 5) as well as TV and PPV matches.That's what puts him over the top in my opinion,the ability to put on great matches night after night,no matter what the venue.

[Guest Shawn]

Those people at the Japanese show probably weren't Puro fans and I doubt if they know about it. The WWf is very popular in Japan when they can get it and Puro is only popular in some regins.

 

Japanese Puroresu fans would most likely scoff at the WWF style or take it in a different light, separating WWF as more of a soap opera and Puro as more like a sport of sorts.

 

I'm just adding my THREE cents... make what you will of it.

[Guest gusmahler]

I stopped watching WWF regularly when Michaels retired.  I started when Angle got his push.  I think Angle is going to have an HOF-caliber career.

 

As for Michael's moveset, yes it was a little limited.  But so was Kawada's (powerbomb, strech plumb, high kick, backdrop and what else?).  And most people think very highly of Kawada.

[Guest Mystery Eskimo]

I'm going to risk a flame here and say that, in my opinion, Michaels is overated and not in the same league as Benoit or Flair. He was good, sure, but not the all-time best.

[Guest Spanky]

As for Michael's moveset, yes it was a little limited.

 

Yes, it was limited.  I think he was especially hurt because his finisher was pretty weak.  Still, Shawn brought other things to the table to make up for the limited moveset.  Charisma, athletic ability, and big bumps, to name three.

 

But so was Kawada's (powerbomb, strech plumb, high kick, backdrop and what else?).

 

Bombs away kneedrop, enzuigiri, abisegiri, ganmengiri, shotgun lariat, brainbuster.  That's from the mid/late 90s.  Earlier in his career, he also used some high flying moves like a pescado and an ugly moonsault.

 

And the thing about those great kicks - they're not moves that you only bust out once or twice a match, like a DDT or piledriver.  They were strikes like chops and punches (only better IMNSHO) that could be used over and over again without getting stale.

 

But like Shawn, Kawada brought other things to the table, namely great selling/transitioning and the best psych in the game.  Not to mention he got a ton of mileage out of the narrow moveset becausae he picked his spots so well.

 

 

Simon

[Guest redbaron51]

The one problem i think is that you are comparing Misawa to some one else, as to Michaels and some one else.

 

You are forgetting about you are comparing one of the best wrestler in Japan to the best in the states.

 

Japanese wrestling and American wrestling which is totaly different.

 

Michaels is a great wrestler over Misawa

 

Misawa has great pyscology over Michaels.

 

Michaels i think is better than Misawa, but no where near as good as Ultimo Dragon. I think Ultimo was probably the best wrestler that have ever stepped in the squared circle.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

"So if you like Michaels, no problem.  But to say that Michaels is a better worker than those listed above because he brought Nash and Sid to **1/2-*** matches, then I don't know what to say."

 

How about you say "That's your opinion and I respect it but I don't agree with it"

 

That's what I hate about these "Best Matches/Good Wrestlers" threads. Everyone has their own opinion to who the best wrestler is and why they are the best wrestler. Yet people have to be right. If someone comes along disagreeing then they have to spend all damn day telling the guy why he's wrong and why said wrestler sucks ass compared to said foreign wrestler. We all have our own opinions. And yes who is a great wrestler is an opinion. Because everyone has their own damn opinion as to what makes up a good wrestler.

Maybe it's Misawa's Psych and Moveset that does it for one guy.

Maybe it's HBK's bumping and carrying that does it for another guy.

Is one right over the other? No. So why do we have to create big long 2 page threads to tell everyone why they are wrong. And it's not like you are doing anything by arguing with them. It's not like your opinion of them as a wrestling fan will affect there real life. And it's not like you're going to change their mind. And they probably aren't changing your mind. Hell you're just wasting time typing about why said worker is better. It's not like the guy you're arguing with cares what you have to say. You aren't going to make him believe what you want to believe.

 

And another thing. Why does when someone says "Yeah he's a good wrestler" 40 other people have to jump in and tell about how 40 other wrestlers are better.

I swear if there was a wrestler who was the BEST wrestler EVER. Nobody else is better than him. It is an undeniable fact that he has everything there is to be the best wrestler.

There will still be someone to harp on how Misawa in 94 was better, or HBK in 96 could outwork him.

Why? Because that is there opinion of Misawa or HBK and they aren't going to change it.

[Guest mastermind]

Mighty Damaramu AMEN! Where were you for the Austin/Rock post? You gotta admit it gets pretty funny at times though. Other times it's good to get another viewpoint. I read the other forum's take on HBK and they do make some good points. What I have to say about Shawn being a bad draw in 1996(nWo juggernaut hey day) is actually think about the wwf if Shawn Michaels wasn't in the wwf from 1994-1997 and was apart of the wcw. I'm sorry, but I think the wwf would have been more hellacious in terms of quality. He helped keep the wwf afloat before the big storm known as Austin 3:16. I also think people take the dark age and blame it on Bret and company too much. Hogan(80's), Flair(early 90's), Savage(80's), Piper(80's) raped the damn league and left it for dead without passing things over. I mean the steroids and the sexual charges on the wwf had a big impact on making the casual fans turn away. Guys like Bret Hart were jobbers in the big boom era. Anyone remember the "shoots" by Waltman, Hall, and Nash on nitro? I agree Ultimo Dragon smokes Shawn Michaels I will say that.

[Guest goodhelmet]

Eh..Steamboat is the best wrestler ever.

 

OK, just to get that out of the way.

I hate debates like these because in rough times, wrestling wise, ANY good-great wrestling match would be appreciated. McMahon has the most talented pool of wrestlers probably ever assembled yet he chooses to throw Albert and Test.

New Japan should be building up Yuji Nagata but Tadao Yasuda is the friggin champion?!?

I enjoy puro and the WWF equally (not to mention lucha libre) but both have their share of "greats" and both have guys not afraid to bring the suck (Giant Silva, Yasuda).

Who cares who was better? Just give me a good wrestling match dammit!

[Guest Brian]

TRG, JDW doesn some great posts. For those who don't know, he's a former Torch (mainly Japan) writer who left when they started covering America, now part of the dvdvr. It's about as unbiased a post on great workers as you can get as a he really has a flare for being able to look at everyone's performances (partially from watching a huge number of tapes).

[Guest Vyce]

Like I said, if the Japs had wrestlers that were big and huge like Lex and Hogan, that would be the style they went with too. But they just have a bunch of child-size rice grinder midgets. So they have to do flips, giggles and crazy BS stunts breaking their stupid necks like Hayabusa.

 

Sorry, I know that this one comment was made about a thousand years ago in terms of this thread, but I'd just like to bring it up again as a clear example of 100% pure ignorance.

 

If you don't like the Japanese product, at least articulate your p.o.v. intelligently.  Instead you just make prejudicial insults about the Japanese workers.  Thank God there are posters here who are so much brighter than you.

 

***

 

Damn, Mike!  I'm used to agreeing with you (i.e. the Current Events folder), but I just don't follow you in this argument.

 

My opinion of Shawn - good worker, will likely be remembered as one of the greats (but hopefully, the bad reputation will follow him), but he is extremely overrated by many WWF marks.  He's made out to be the GOD of wrestling for the past decade or so, and while he was good, I just don't see him deserving of that status.

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

Hey MikeSC, it's your worst enemy....

 

In any case, I totally agree on the greatness of HBK in the ring.  His match with Mankind at Mind Games is probably my favorite match of all-time.  Words don't truly describe how great and tripped-out violent it is in the ol' Scorsese/Tarantino way.  I even dig HBK's "backstage demeanor".  He's just a misunderstood genius...

 

I'll admit PURO is an acquired taste.  To an American wrestling fan, the style of the Japanese product may seem quite awkward.  Very pure wrestling is the heart of what they do.  It's treated as a sport and it's treated with respect, unlike in this country (sorry, getting Communist again).  It also helps that guys like Misawa and Mutoh (don't write this man off right yet, Mike.  His match against Genichiro Tenryu for the Triple Crown on 6-8-01 is the 2001 MOTY IMO.  SEE IT NOW~!) are perfectly willing to fall right on their head for our pleasure.  I'm not sure how to help you if you can't get into the juniors.  My grandmother would like that stuff...

 

As for Bret Hart, I propose the Internet stop talking about him for 5 years, and then re-assess his legacy.  All his good seems tarnished now, and it's really sad....

 

 

 

I'd also have to really say the language towards the Japanese people in the beginning of this thread is totally tasteless.  Grow up, fuckwads.  Thank God the smart people took over this discussion.

[Guest mastermind]

"I'd also have to really say the language towards the Japanese people in the beginning of this thread is totally tasteless.  Grow up, fuckwads.  Thank God the smart people took over this discussion."

 

Hey buddy I hope this wasn't toward me. If you actually READ MY POST AND UNDERSTOOD that I copied and pasted the entire post for viewing here you would see who the fuckwads and "smart" people of the discussion really are. I posted TWICE that this is a copy and paste selection.

 

"If you don't like the Japanese product, at least articulate your p.o.v. intelligently.  Instead you just make prejudicial insults about the Japanese workers.  Thank God there are posters here who are so much brighter than you."

 

Yep, the bright ones would know this wasn't WRITTEN by any single poster at THIS forum. Of course there is a God.