WWF in Japan

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<Like I said, if the Japs had wrestlers that were big and huge like Lex and Hogan, that would be the style they went with too. But they just have a bunch of child-size rice grinder midgets. So they have to do flips, giggles and crazy BS stunts breaking their stupid necks like Hayabusa.

 

Sorry, I know that this one comment was made about a thousand years ago in terms of this thread, but I'd just like to bring it up again as a clear example of 100% pure ignorance.

 

If you don't like the Japanese product, at least articulate your p.o.v. intelligently.  Instead you just make prejudicial insults about the Japanese workers.  Thank God there are posters here who are so much brighter than you.>>

 

True. Offensive language just discounts an argument.

 

Let it be said, though, that the Japanese fans accept crap as readily as anybody.

 

<<***

 

Damn, Mike!  I'm used to agreeing with you (i.e. the Current Events folder), but I just don't follow you in this argument.

 

My opinion of Shawn - good worker, will likely be remembered as one of the greats (but hopefully, the bad reputation will follow him), but he is extremely overrated by many WWF marks.  He's made out to be the GOD of wrestling for the past decade or so, and while he was good, I just don't see him deserving of that status. >>

 

I have found that most of the anti-Shawn sentiment comes from his backstage stuf---which, while problematic, doesn't make much impact on me.

 

Shawn, like Hennig in his prime, would KILL himself to make somebody look good. He'd bump like a madman, which covers up the slow, plodding style of guys like UT and Kevin Nash.

 

Was he juvenile and immature? Without a doubt.

 

Shawn was also the best performer I've ever seen. I place Flair and Austin ahead of him simply because Shawn's stint as a top player was so short.

            -=Mike

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

Mike, of the Japanese wrestlers/wrestling you have seen, what are your favorites. I also totally agree with you that Japanese fans can have a tendency to like crap as well.

 

And I really don't care who said those things about the Japanese people.  It's wrong, it's not needed, and it just shows ignorance.  I really think the first thing people need to do is start respecting other cultures.  The fact that the people of Japan respect and adore pro wrestling so much is proof enough for me of how beautiful their culture is.  I get teary-eyed just thinking about it...

 

FRANK ZAPPA MASK: IN A FOUL MOOD CAUSE FOOD POISONING SUCKS!!!

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<Mike, of the Japanese wrestlers/wrestling you have seen, what are your favorites. I also totally agree with you that Japanese fans can have a tendency to like crap as well.>>

 

My favorites? Well, Liger, Ohtani, Takaiwa (I can't even explain WHY  like the guy---maybe it's that he's the onl r. Heavyweight who works a power style), and Wagner Jr. tended to entertain consistently. I also loved M_Pro until, well, TAKA and the rest of Kaientai left (Gran Hamada is the man and I happen to like Yakushiji). Sasuke was overrated, but the rest of the roster---even Delphin---was rather solid. Some of the Jr. Heavies are overrated (Kanemoto comes to mind. Ditto Ka'Shin, but I don't think he's THAT highly regarded)

 

As for NJPW heavyweights, I didn't much care for them. Hashimoto never wowed me, Sasaki was terrible, Mutoh's work (at leat through 2000) was God awful, and Ogawa was dull.

 

AJPW never worked for me and since I basically only saw the ME guys, I can't think of anybody who wowed me.

                            -=Mike

[Guest Spanky]

TRG, JDW doesn some great posts. For those who don't know, he's a former Torch (mainly Japan) writer who left when they started covering America, now part of the dvdvr.

 

JDW isn't part of the DVDVR.

 

He runs tOA, and posts now and then at DVDVR and A1.  He didn't leave The Torch because they started covering America.  They always covered wrestling in the States.  John himself wrote columns about US wrestling, including a couple of excellent ones on ECW.  I don't want to speak for him, but IIRC he left because he simply wasn't inspired to continue writing pieces for publication, preferring to post on the boards at tOA without a deadline hanging over his head.

 

 

It's about as unbiased a post on great workers as you can get as a he really has a flare for being able to look at everyone's performances (partially from watching a huge number of tapes).

 

Yeah, when it comes to analysis John smokes damn near everyone on net, including the big names like Meltzer and Keller.  He kinda has a reputation for being arrogant and condescending (which I think he relishes ), but he's never been anything but super pleasant to me.

 

 

Simon

[Guest Matt]

ok, ok, ok, about the Michaels thing.

 

Well, no wait, lets go back...

 

First thing I got to mention is that Mike is a dickwad and should really be a little less brash with his rantings on Mutoh and puro as a whole.

 

Secondly, the WWF's show in Japan was a cop out on their part. You couldn't have booked a worse card for this on'e popularity if you tried. No Austin or Angle or RVD or guys that can give some great matches other than Rock and Jericho. I find that very cold hearted of the WWF towards the people over in Japan. Seems like they could have spared some big names for such a rare show.

 

Thirdly, Bret Hart was a significantly better worker than Shawn was but Shawn's run in the WWF was a much better one and produced more good than Bret's. Micheals year in 96 was flawless by North American Heavyweight standards. No one touched him on this shore for sure not for what he had to work with.

 

Worker of the year is tough to say. Kawada had a good year in 96 as did misawa and kobashi. But they have had and would have better so the standout quality (other than the RWTL Finals) doesnt match Michael's year.

 

Maybe Liger. But Im a Liger mark and have a hard time finding any fault in him as a side effect of unrelented bias.

 

I guess I would have to say that if any 90's wrestler was Worker of the year in the 90's, it was Michaels in 96. Though I still think Mick Foley is the most consistent american worker of the decade.

[Guest Loss4Words]

Liger was definitely the inspirational wrestler of the year with the brain tumor and his comeback and all, but he understandably had a period of inactivity there, so I'm not sure I'd call him the best that year.

 

It's hard to say who was the best wrestler in 1996. Had Eddy not been so horribly misused after getting over HUGE in the first half of the year and the latter part of '95, I might have said him. He could have easily been a babyface world champ considering he was approaching Sting as far as face heat goes.

 

I think I'd actually have to say Shawn here, but I admit that I saw far less of his Japanese contemporaries than I did of him that year, so my opinion is going to be a little slanted. But if you just look at American workers, no one was put in so many situations where things didn't look good on paper, only to burst out and produce great match after great match. I think he had already passed his prime in '96 (I actually think he fully peaked in '89 facing Arn & Tully), but he was still great.

 

Also, as far as this whole WWF v Japan argument goes, I posted something pretty lengthy about this very subject in the Foreign folder that I really wish everyone would read.

[Guest Brian]

I meant they started covering America only and didn't cover anything internation al really. I just remember them dropping covering the international scene around the time he left.

 

Doesn't JDW help out on the 500 IIRC? That's what I was talking about.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

ok, ok, ok, about the Michaels thing.

 

Well, no wait, lets go back...

 

First thing I got to mention is that Mike is a dickwad and should really be a little less brash with his rantings on Mutoh and puro as a whole.>>

 

"Mike is a dickwad"

 

Are both of your brain cells feuding again?

 

Is THIS the best you can come up with?

 

Pathetic.

 

<<Secondly, the WWF's show in Japan was a cop out on their part.>>

 

Oh, please, tell us how.

 

<<You couldn't have booked a worse card for this on'e popularity if you tried. No Austin or Angle or RVD or guys that can give some great matches other than Rock and Jericho.>>

 

Heaven forbid the WWF actually worry abot BUILDING UP FOR THEIR BIGGES SHOW OF THE YEAR.

 

Geez, did your mother do crack while you were in the womb?

 

<<I find that very cold hearted of the WWF towards the people over in Japan.>>

 

Boo-friggin'-hoo.

 

<<Seems like they could have spared some big names for such a rare show.>>

 

Again---they do have something of a HUGE PPV SHOW to promote in the States.

 

But, yeah, screw it. Worry about the Japanese market that, I can only assume, provided the WWF with a huge chunk of their income, huh?

 

<<Thirdly, Bret Hart was a significantly better worker than Shawn>>

 

BWA HA HA HA!

 

Good one.

 

<<was but Shawn's run in the WWF was a much better one and produced more good than Bret's. Micheals year in 96 was flawless by North American Heavyweight standards. No one touched him on this shore for sure not for what he had to work with.

 

Worker of the year is tough to say. Kawada had a good year in 96 as did misawa and kobashi. But they have had and would have better so the standout quality (other than the RWTL Finals) doesnt match Michael's year.

 

Maybe Liger. But Im a Liger mark and have a hard time finding any fault in him as a side effect of unrelented bias.

 

I guess I would have to say that if any 90's wrestler was Worker of the year in the 90's, it was Michaels in 96. Though I still think Mick Foley is the most consistent american worker of the decade.>>

 

As long as you ignore the crap he churned out over his last year or so.

 

Or his mediocre brawls in ECW.

 

Or his mediocre crap in the indy leagues.

 

Yup, ignore THOSE and you might have a point.

                      -=Mike

 

...Not that tolerant of people who choose to be vulgar towards me.

[Guest TripleHsmark]

First.  WWF vs. Puro.  I like the style of the WWF mains.  Austin and Angle had as good of matches as anyone in the world last year.  However, puro on a whole has better workers.

 

Second: HBK.  The best "big match" performer ever.  However, he was better against talentless slugs than he was against great wrestlers.  He has to be the only one that can say he had a better match with Kevin Nash than any of his matches with Bret Hart.  The first Hell in the Cell is also my personal all time favorite match.  Was he truly a better wrestler than Kawada... No, but he but on better shows.  Just my take.

[Guest BaronVonStevie]

last post is exactly how I see it.

 

But I'd say HBK's charisma mixed in with his super solid ringwork make him on par with anyone... ever.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<First.  WWF vs. Puro.  I like the style of the WWF mains.  Austin and Angle had as good of matches as anyone in the world last year.  However, puro on a whole has better workers.>>

 

 

I think puro has better light heavyweight wrestling. They do high spots but that's not ALL they do my main beef with WCW CW wrestling and the WWA CW PPV match).

 

The heavyweights, though, don't do a lot for me.

 

 

<<Second: HBK.  The best "big match" performer ever.  However, he was better against talentless slugs than he was against great wrestlers.  He has to be the only one that can say he had a better match with Kevin Nash than any of his matches with Bret Hart.  The first Hell in the Cell is also my personal all time favorite match.  Was he truly a better wrestler than Kawada... No, but he but on better shows.  Just my take. >>

 

 

The Hart v Michaels matches:

 

The first series (I consider that the series that ended with their SSeries '92 match) were excellent. Top-notch matches.

 

Their subsequent series, though, were bad. WM12's match wasn't. Their final match in Montreal was bad. That being said, how much is Shawn's fault?

 

It's not like Bret was busting his BUTT out there. Perhaps he sand-bagged HBK because of their personal animosity.

 

It's a legitimate possibility.

                      -=Mike

 

...How many great guys did HBK work with? His match with Foley was amazing. His matches with Owen were terrific. His final match with Austin was quite good, even with his back injury.

[Guest Risk]

Maybe they(who are "THEY"?) could make a combination of Puro and American wrestling.  Making everyone happy.

[Guest NineSpiral]

I'm amazed at some of the ignorance displayed by people here about Japanese wrestlers. Sometimes I think people are just incapble of understanding the subtleties in puroresu, especially in the All Japan stuff, which really does take a trained eye to appreciate. AJPW produced the best heavyweight matches of all time, but if you showed 6/8/90 Jumbo/Misawa or 6/3/94 Misawa/Kawada or whatever to someone who's been conditioned solely by WWF type stuff, they would doubtlessly find it boring. It's wrestling for people who like to think, not people who like to have their thinking done for them. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the WWF, and watch it, but it's not even in the same league as the best Japanese stuff. And as for the comments about Michaels being able to carry anyone, he was great at it, but comparing him to guys like Kawada and Kobashi and Misawa is a joke. Go and watch Kawada vs Albright, if you want to see what a carry job really is (but make sure you understand AJPW before you do so)

 

Jason

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

"It's wrestling for people who like to think, not people who like to have their thinking done for them."

 

I hear this line all the time, and every time it sounds more and more retarded.

[Guest Brian]

Why? McMahon has a legacy of pushing whoever he wants and telling much of the fanbase to cheer whomever? Even in the shaded grey era, where the fans made the decisions, he pushed Rock and Triple H heavily, threw a somewhat green Angle into the main event, and hasn't pushed some of their most over faces (Jericho and RVD). If you guys are doing the thinking, how come there are no decisions being made based on your thoughts.

[Guest TripleHsmark]

Personally, I didn't care for the Bret/Shawn series in 92, and I find their WM 12 match to be the most overrated match in history.

 

Michaels matches with Owen also didn't do a whole lot for me.

[Guest mastermind]

"It's wrestling for people who like to think, not people who like to have their thinking done for them."

 

"Even in the shaded grey era, where the fans made the decisions, he pushed Rock and Triple H heavily, threw a somewhat green Angle into the main event, and hasn't pushed some of their most over faces (Jericho and RVD)".

 

These two lines are pretty laughable. I think Rocky Maivia was pushed down our throats and you saw the response to that*lol*. I don't think the intent was to have people chant DIE ROCKY DIE! and ROCKY SUCKS! Of course the masses took that and ate it up because Vince told them he was the third generation superstar blue chipper.

 

Oh, yeah I remember Triple H in 1999 not getting the heat the wwf was going for. Even putting the title on him. I guess I missed Vince Mcmahon(the most over heel) getting pops for beating Triple H for the title and yes I know Austin help get the pop and brought Mcmahon back. Look at it this way I haven't seen Mcmahon more over as a face than this period.  I think it was more a relief that people hated Triple H the paper champion the heat he was getting by the wwf telling us to. I'm saying this and I'm a Trips mark, but the truth is he wasn't over although the wwf said he was a crippler and an evil man.

 

Hell, he was put over Austin and still wasn't getting the heat they wanted. He raped Mcmahon's daughter and still got somewhat a tweener reaction. He beats Foley at MSG, but it took RETIRING Foley to actually make the fans start booing the guy. Triple H was seen as HBK's lackey until this time. Fortunately, Triple H improved his work and even net fans started to jump on his bandwagon.

 

Kurt Angle the Olympic hero was over BEFORE he got his belts by getting heat on his character. Not to mention he probably gets credibility from fans for being an actual real wrestler.  I actually think the world title belt made fans take him as a joke when he beat Rock because as you said he was green. The ratings show that the fans weren't buying it. Hell, the wwf even had to write it into a storyline when the rematch with Rock happened in February.

 

Fans are sometimes sheep, but they don't always take the crap Vince throws them. I mean I thought we learned this since WM 17 because the ratings have been going south for some time. It's more like fans are more loyal than actually eating the crow the wwf gives them. Just the majority turn the channel quicker. I mean the ratings jump when people like Flair show up and go back to down when they see stuff like the "kiss my ass" club.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<I'm amazed at some of the ignorance displayed by people here about Japanese wrestlers.>>

 

 

I am amazed at the arrogance of people who can't understand that some people can come to DIFFERENT conclusions than them.

 

Okay, I'm not THAT amazed.

 

 

<<Sometimes I think people are just incapble of understanding the subtleties in puroresu, especially in the All Japan stuff, which really does take a trained eye to appreciate.>>

 

 

Ah, the whole "You people ae too dumb to appreciate it" bilge.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again---

 

If a performance BOMBS to an audience, it's not the fault of the audience.

 

 

<<AJPW produced the best heavyweight matches of all time, but if you showed 6/8/90 Jumbo/Misawa or 6/3/94 Misawa/Kawada or whatever to someone who's been conditioned solely by WWF type stuff, they would doubtlessly find it boring.>>

 

 

I happened to like NJPW Jr. heavies and M_Pro stuff (circa 1996) better.

 

Do I have a valid opinion?

 

 

<<It's wrestling for people who like to think, not people who like to have their thinking done for them.>>

 

 

Seeing as how puro marks tend to say the same thing, I think the thinking it requires is VASTLY overstated.

 

I've seen Grateful Dead fans who are more rational than puro marks.

 

 

<<Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the WWF, and watch it, but it's not even in the same league as the best Japanese stuff.>>

 

 

Of course not.

 

It doesn't have an elitist base pimping it.

 

 

<<And as for the comments about Michaels being able to carry anyone, he was great at it, but comparing him to guys like Kawada and Kobashi and Misawa is a joke.>>

 

 

He was better than both.

 

Easily.

 

 

<<Go and watch Kawada vs Albright, if you want to see what a carry job really is (but make sure you understand AJPW before you do so)>>

 

 

So, you admit that the match probably isn't good, eh?

                           -=Mike

 

...Loves seeing elitists with such thin egos.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Why? McMahon has a legacy of pushing whoever he wants and telling much of the fanbase to cheer whomever? Even in the shaded grey era, where the fans made the decisions, he pushed Rock and Triple H heavily, threw a somewhat green Angle into the main event, and hasn't pushed some of their most over faces (Jericho and RVD). If you guys are doing the thinking, how come there are no decisions being made based on your thoughts. >>

 

I guess I really didn't see how upset people were when Liger was squashing his opposition.

 

I guess I didn't hear groans when Tadao Yasuda was given the IWGP Title.

 

It's Japan---they ALWAYS push who the fans want, right?

                         -=Mike

[Guest Vyce]

I guess I didn't hear groans when Tadao Yasuda was given the IWGP Title.

 

C'mon, we all know that the only reason he's being pushed is that he owes the Yakuza money, and they want a return on their investment.

[Guest Brian]

"It doesn't have an elitist base pimping it."

 

There are much more so called elitist that are WWF fans.

 

Mike, I'm just wondering how you rated the M-pro matches. I got into becuase it'd looked cool, but it took me a long time to actually learn to appreciate the matches and understand how good the tags were. That's one thing where to understand how good they are, sometimes you have to go back a little and find the Sato/Delphin stuff and learn the backstory, like Misawa/Kawada. I started out at Jumbo/Misawa and bought every match and TV block up.

 

Anyways, my post wasn't making a point on being pushed if the fans wanted them to. It was on the post prior.

[Guest Spanky]

=TheMikeSC,Mar. 07 2002,16

If a performance BOMBS to an audience, it's not the fault of the audience.

 

Of course.  

 

I think All Japan is an acquired taste.  It's often quite different from what fans accustomed to the WWF/WCW/ECW are used to.  

 

And sometimes there are nuances that can't be appreciated unless one is familiar with the product, but that doesn't completely invalidate the opinion of someone that doesn't like it.

 

 

<<It's wrestling for people who like to think, not people who like to have their thinking done for them.>>

 

Yeah, Misawa and Kobashi playing Night of the Living Dead with all the crazy suplexes and dangerous moves was a real thinking man's wrestling.  Erm, not so much...

 

 

I've seen Grateful Dead fans who are more rational than puro marks.

 

So instead of painting all Japanese fans with the same broad brush, how about engaging those in this thread who have been fair and rational?  

 

 

He was better than both.

 

Easily.

 

Nah, they smoke him, especially Kawada.  All three had peaks higher than Shawn (in some cases significantly higher), and all three were great for a longer period of time.

 

But, as always, YMMV.

 

 

So, you admit that the match probably isn't good, eh?

 

It was great.  And considering that Albright was kinda worthless aside from his killer suplexes, it makes me think Kawada put on one of the all time great carrying performances (and he did it by more than just bumping his ass off)... though I do cop to TY that Hokuto with Kandori was probably better.

 

 

Simon,

needs to watch Dreamslam again...

[Guest Ripper]

dude Albright, at least had reasonably acceptable offensive set. Guys like Nash, Sid, and Taker didn't do half the things Albright would.  

 

It goes back to what you are working with.  Shawn's carry jobs were so much more incredible due to the amazing lack of talent he was working with.  Guys like Albright in Japan are not worth much, but in comparison with the likes of Nash and Sid, he is pretty good.

[Guest Spanky]

dude Albright, at least had reasonably acceptable offensive set.

 

Perhaps you could outline his mvoeset, because I sure as heck don't see it.  Albright had his killer suplexes and an aura from that, but otherwise he was extremely limited.

 

 

Shawn's carry jobs were so much more incredible due to the amazing lack of talent he was working with.

 

What's funny about Shawn's carrying is that he doesn't really do anything that much different than when working with someone good.  He does The Shawn Show, and bumps like a madman.  As was prevsiouly stated, sometimes all you can do with guys like Sid or Nash is bump like crazy, but I'm more impressed by Jumbo thinking his way around Tenryu or Kawada doing the same with Albright.  Perhaps Shawn lifted heavier weights, but Jumbo lifted his weight a lot higher.

 

Let me put it this way... it's been said that some of the great Japanese workers couldn't have had the matches with Nash & Sid that Shawn did, but then again, Shawn probably couldn't have had the matches with Albright that Takada and Kawada did.

 

 

Guys like Albright in Japan are not worth much, but in comparison with the likes of Nash and Sid, he is pretty good.

 

So good that only Gods of Work like Takada and Kawada could get much out of him?

 

 

Simon

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<"It doesn't have an elitist base pimping it."

 

There are much more so called elitist that are WWF fans.>>

 

 

 

Amazing that a product lambasted for being "low brow" has a lot of "elitist" supporters.

 

 

<<Mike, I'm just wondering how you rated the M-pro matches. I got into becuase it'd looked cool, but it took me a long time to actually learn to appreciate the matches and understand how good the tags were.>>

 

 

Enjoyed almost all of M_Pro until the time Kaientai left (TAKA was one of the rare guys who could get a match I liked out of Sasuke and Togo is the man). I loved the matches upon initial viewing and my enjoyment of them has not waned.

 

<<That's one thing where to understand how good they are, sometimes you have to go back a little and find the Sato/Delphin stuff and learn the backstory, like Misawa/Kawada. I started out at Jumbo/Misawa and bought every match and TV block up.>>

 

 

 

I first got into M_Pro through their appearance in ECW, so I had a modicum of backstory knowledge (Sasuke and Kaientai aren't friendly and you can begin to build from that). From there, I searched out a ton of their stuff, plus videos where they appeared in cross-promotional shows (such as the woefully underrated SkyDiving J) and the guys always seemed to work well with everybody.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<=TheMikeSC,Mar. 07 2002,16

 

Quote  

If a performance BOMBS to an audience, it's not the fault of the audience.

 

 

Of course.  

 

I think All Japan is an acquired taste.  It's often quite different from what fans accustomed to the WWF/WCW/ECW are used to.  

 

And sometimes there are nuances that can't be appreciated unless one is familiar with the product, but that doesn't completely invalidate the opinion of someone that doesn't like it.

 

 

Quote  

<<It's wrestling for people who like to think, not people who like to have their thinking done for them.>>

 

 

Yeah, Misawa and Kobashi playing Night of the Living Dead with all the crazy suplexes and dangerous moves was a real thinking man's wrestling.  Erm, not so much...

 

 

<<Quote  

I've seen Grateful Dead fans who are more rational than puro marks.

 

 

So instead of painting all Japanese fans with the same broad brush, how about engaging those in this thread who have been fair and rational?  >>

 

 

I will try and do so.

 

 

<<Quote  

He was better than both.

 

Easily.

 

 

Nah, they smoke him, especially Kawada.  All three had peaks higher than Shawn (in some cases significantly higher), and all three were great for a longer period of time.

 

But, as always, YMMV.>>

 

 

I, as I have stated before, feel that the ability to carry useless lugs (i.e Nash) to rather good matches (i.e IYH: Good Friends, Better Enemies) is the truest sign of greatness.

 

I was thinking back and am amazed at the lack of talent that Shawn was stuck in the ring with. He had to deal with Diesel, Scott Hall (whose ENTIRE rep is based on his work with Shawn), Sid, Undertaker, Vader (when he was quite terrible), Bret Hart (who, while talented, was not exactly co-operative with Shawn), Shamrock, and British Bulldog. The only good workers Shawn got to work with were Owen and Mankind and Shawn, IMHO, delivered in both of those situations as well.

 

Now, I'm not a fan of the AJPW style, so obviously, those matches do less for me than they do for you.

 

However, odds are, you like Misawa et al---and the top AJPW guys worked with one another A LOT. So, if you enjoy their work, they had a lot of matches with one another to "pad" their stats, so to speak.

                             -=Mike

[Guest TRG]

Doesn't JDW help out on the 500 IIRC? That's what I was talking about.

 

Based on recent comments John has made about assigning a number value to wrestlers, it'd be pretty funny to have him working on the DVD500

 

Seriously, I doubt he does the 500. I think that's just the eight Playboyz~! ( ) who contribute to the DVDVRs.

[Guest Spanky]

I, as I have stated before, feel that the ability to carry useless lugs (i.e Nash) to rather good matches (i.e IYH: Good Friends, Better Enemies) is the truest sign of greatness.

 

I feel that is but one part of a wrestler's ability.

 

In the summer of 1993, Kenta Kobashi had a fabulous match with Stan Hansen.  Both guys put on good performances, and I don't see why either man should be penalized because the other was a great worker.  The match, IMHO of course, was leaps and bounds better than Shawn's excellent match with Kevin Nash at IYH... enough so that it would offset whatever "advantage" Shawn had because his opponent was weak.  Continuing with the example of Jumbo from earlier - Shawn had more weight to carry, but Kobashi & Hansen carried the weight much farther.

 

Besides, the idea that puro wrestlers don't ever have to carry is really accurate.  Jumbo carried a limited Tenryu to one of the best matches of the 80s.  Kawada put on a great performance to carry a mediocre Gary Albright.  Misawa & Akiyama carried an aging Doc and a sloppy Johnny Ace to one of the best tag team matches of the 90s.  Akira Hokuto carried Kandori to maybe the best joshi singles match of the 90s.  They didn't have to do it as routinely as Shawn or Bret or some of the other US workers, but it could be done.

 

 

I was thinking back and am amazed at the lack of talent that Shawn was stuck in the ring with.

 

Agreed.  Back when DVDVR was running their Best of the 90s polls, the WWF ballots were full of Shawn and Bret matches (with a few others scattered here and there).

 

 

He had to deal with Diesel,

 

With mixed results.  The Wrestlemania match was pretty disappointing, but the IYH match was outstanding.  However, Bret also had a pretty good match with Diesel at KOTR '94, and didn't need props to do it.

 

 

Scott Hall (whose ENTIRE rep is based on his work with Shawn)

 

Agreed, at least concerning his rep inside the ring.  I'm not really a big fan of gimmick matches, but Shawn put on a couple of great performances in both matches.

 

 

Sid

 

I wasn't all that impressed by the Sid match at Survivor Series.  Didn't see the Royal Rumble rematch.

 

 

Undertaker

 

Hell in the Cell was quite a spectacle.  I'm not quite as high on it as most (see above about the props), but it the fighting atop the cage was quite a visual.

 

 

Vader (when he was quite terrible)

 

Thought the Vader match at SummerSlam was pretty stinky.  Didn't think either man looked very good.  It didn't help that Shawn threw a temper tantrum when Vader badly botched the spot off the top rope.

 

 

Bret Hart (who, while talented, was not exactly co-operative with Shawn)

 

Yeah, it's a shame those two hated each other, because their styles probably could've meshed for a tremendous match.  Bret had the crisp offense and Shawn had the bumps.  Too bad.  The Survivor Series '92 match is in my on deck circle to be watched, but the Mania match was kinda disappointing, and I fault Bret more than Shawn.

 

 

Shamrock

 

Didn't see Shawn's match with Shammy.

 

 

and British Bulldog

 

The match at KOTR '96 was good.  I wasn't as impressed with the One Night Only match, but I'd have to watch it again to get into specifics.

 

 

The only good workers Shawn got to work with were Owen and Mankind and Shawn, IMHO, delivered in both of those situations as well.

 

Argh, my stupid VCR ate my tape of the IYH match with Owen before I got to see it.  Crap finish aside, I liked the Mankind match a great deal.

 

 

Now, I'm not a fan of the AJPW style, so obviously, those matches do less for me than they do for you.

 

Fair enough.  To each their own, no?

 

Question - what matches have you seen?  I'd recommend checking out one of the six man tag matches from the Jumbo vs. Misawa era.  I notice you said you enjoy MPro... those six man tag matches from the early 90s All Japan are kinda like a heavyweight version of the MPro sprints.  They're hell on wheels with tons of action, loads of fun.  Try one of those, if you haven't already.  Going straight to the epics is a bad idea, IMO.  Lay the groundwork first.  It's like with the WWF.  If I were recommending matches to someone who had never seen The Whiff, I wouldn't immediately point them to Bret-Austin from Mania.  I'd tell them to get some episodes of Raw to lay the foundation so they could get a better understanding of what they were doing.  Then when the get to the Mania match, it's so much more rewarding because they have the proper context.

 

 

However, odds are, you like Misawa et al---and the top AJPW guys worked with one another A LOT. So, if you enjoy their work, they had a lot of matches with one another to "pad" their stats, so to speak.

 

I don't think of it as padding stats.  They still had to go out and perform.  Sometimes they'd hit a homerun.  Sometimes a line drive up the middle.  Sometimes they'd even strike out.  But to me, it's not the sheer quantity of great matches they had, but the quality.  As I said above, the match quality advantage is so great, IMO, that it cancels out whatever "advantage" Michaels has due to poorer quality of opposition.

 

 

Simon

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<Quote  

I, as I have stated before, feel that the ability to carry useless lugs (i.e Nash) to rather good matches (i.e IYH: Good Friends, Better Enemies) is the truest sign of greatness.

 

 

I feel that is but one part of a wrestler's ability.

 

In the summer of 1993, Kenta Kobashi had a fabulous match with Stan Hansen.  Both guys put on good performances, and I don't see why either man should be penalized because the other was a great worker.  The match, IMHO of course, was leaps and bounds better than Shawn's excellent match with Kevin Nash at IYH... enough so that it would offset whatever "advantage" Shawn had because his opponent was weak.  Continuing with the example of Jumbo from earlier - Shawn had more weight to carry, but Kobashi & Hansen carried the weight much farther.>>

 

 

I feel that Shawn carried Nash to a **** match and that is an amazing feat, considering that Kev's work tends to reside primarily in the DUD region of quality. I think a ***** match between two terrific/very good workers is just less impressive than a **** match involving a guy who is borderline inept.

 

I've not seen the Kawada v Hansen match but considering my admitted biases, I imagine I would prefer the HBK v Nash match.

 

Now, I assume you liked the Kawada match more.

 

You place a lot of stock in their match being great---a perfectly acceptable line of thought.

 

I place more stock in carrying a guy to a match with quality FAR above the guy's normal work is more impressive.

 

Just a different standard for what qualifies as greatness.

 

 

<<Besides, the idea that puro wrestlers don't ever have to carry is really accurate.  Jumbo carried a limited Tenryu to one of the best matches of the 80s.  Kawada put on a great performance to carry a mediocre Gary Albright.  Misawa & Akiyama carried an aging Doc and a sloppy Johnny Ace to one of the best tag team matches of the 90s.>>

 

 

I've seen Jumbo's work against really solid worker (two matches with Flair, his title loss to Misawa, etc.) and I wasn't that impressed. I'm not saying that the match with Tenyru wasn't great (I haven't seen it), but judging by my previous impression of Tsurta's work, I cannot say I'd love it.

 

 

<<Akira Hokuto carried Kandori to maybe the best joshi singles match of the 90s.>>

 

 

While I'm not a huge fan of Joshi, I have never seen a bad match out Hokuto outside of her series with Madusa here in the States (and, honestly, I can't place the blame upon Akira).

 

 

<<They didn't have to do it as routinely as Shawn or Bret or some of the other US workers, but it could be done.>>

 

 

I don't doubt it---but until they HAVE to carry lugs regularly, it's something of a problem.

 

It's comparable to the unfortunate problem that mid-major conferences have when it comes to the NCAA basketball tourney. These teams can win a ton of games, but since they seldom play elite competition, it's not easy to say that they're better than teams who, while having a worse record, play tougher competition.

 

 

<<Quote  

I was thinking back and am amazed at the lack of talent that Shawn was stuck in the ring with.

 

 

Agreed.  Back when DVDVR was running their Best of the 90s polls, the WWF ballots were full of Shawn and Bret matches (with a few others scattered here and there).

 

 

Quote  

He had to deal with Diesel,

 

 

With mixed results.  The Wrestlemania match was pretty disappointing, but the IYH match was outstanding.  However, Bret also had a pretty good match with Diesel at KOTR '94, and didn't need props to do it.>>

 

 

I don't think the WM11 match holds up whatsoever (today, I'd be hesitant to even give it ***), but at the time, it was the best match out of Nash I've ever seen.

 

I wasn't that impressed with Nash's work with Hart, outside of their match at SSeries '95.

 

 

<<Quote  

Scott Hall (whose ENTIRE rep is based on his work with Shawn)

 

 

Agreed, at least concerning his rep inside the ring.  I'm not really a big fan of gimmick matches, but Shawn put on a couple of great performances in both matches.

 

 

Quote  

Sid

 

 

I wasn't all that impressed by the Sid match at Survivor Series.  Didn't see the Royal Rumble rematch.>>

 

 

I thought the Series match was, easily, the best match of Sid's career. Shawn wasn't nearly as on at Rumble (he didn't seem to care whatsoever), but it was still a rather good match.

 

 

<<Quote  

Undertaker

 

 

Hell in the Cell was quite a spectacle.  I'm not quite as high on it as most (see above about the props), but it the fighting atop the cage was quite a visual.

 

 

Quote  

Vader (when he was quite terrible)

 

 

Thought the Vader match at SummerSlam was pretty stinky.  Didn't think either man looked very good.  It didn't help that Shawn threw a temper tantrum when Vader badly botched the spot off the top rope.>>

 

 

Shawn pitched a tantrum, which is unprofessional, but he also dragged out the best match Vader had been involved in during his entire WWF stint. I thought the two false finishes were WAY too much, but the match itself was excellent.

 

 

<<Quote  

Bret Hart (who, while talented, was not exactly co-operative with Shawn)

 

 

Yeah, it's a shame those two hated each other, because their styles probably could've meshed for a tremendous match.  Bret had the crisp offense and Shawn had the bumps.  Too bad.  The Survivor Series '92 match is in my on deck circle to be watched, but the Mania match was kinda disappointing, and I fault Bret more than Shawn.>>

 

 

I felt the WM match was killed by the 60-minutes. Both men clearly booked the match around the time limit. An Ironman match really should have a few decisions in the time frame.

 

The Series 92 match was quite good---but I haven't watched it in years.

 

 

<<Quote  

Shamrock

 

 

Didn't see Shawn's match with Shammy.>>

 

 

You didn't miss a ton. Shamrock's best match, but Ken isn't exactly a stellar worker. Shawn also could've used a bullhorn and had his calling of spots be a little less noticeable.

 

 

<<Quote  

and British Bulldog

 

 

The match at KOTR '96 was good.  I wasn't as impressed with the One Night Only match, but I'd have to watch it again to get into specifics.>>

 

 

The KOTR match actually redeemed a rather piddling match at IYH: Beware of Dog (of course, they apparently cut the match short and it could've hurt things). The ONO match was decent, but it wasn't Shawn's strongest.

 

 

<<Quote  

The only good workers Shawn got to work with were Owen and Mankind and Shawn, IMHO, delivered in both of those situations as well.

 

 

Argh, my stupid VCR ate my tape of the IYH match with Owen before I got to see it.  Crap finish aside, I liked the Mankind match a great deal.>>

 

 

The crap finish was terrible. And, shame you missed the Hart match as it is, well, the only reason to watch the terrible IYH 6 show.

 

 

 

<<Quote  

Now, I'm not a fan of the AJPW style, so obviously, those matches do less for me than they do for you.

 

 

Fair enough.  To each their own, no?

 

Question - what matches have you seen?>>

 

 

Let me just check with my tape list (my memory on such things tends to be bad, but I've seen everything I have). I won't list all of them, but some of the major ones. I don't have dates, sorry. :-)

 

Misawa's v Hansen.

Misawa's v Tsurta.

Kobashi & Misawa v Akiyama & Kawada

Tsurta v Flair

Misawa v Kawada

Akiyama, Kobashi, & Misawa v Kawada, Omori,& Taue

Kawada v Williams

 

A bunch of others.

 

 

<<I'd recommend checking out one of the six man tag matches from the Jumbo vs. Misawa era.  I notice you said you enjoy MPro... those six man tag matches from the early 90s All Japan are kinda like a heavyweight version of the MPro sprints.  They're hell on wheels with tons of action, loads of fun.  Try one of those, if you haven't already.  Going straight to the epics is a bad idea, IMO.  Lay the groundwork first.  It's like with the WWF.  If I were recommending matches to someone who had never seen The Whiff, I wouldn't immediately point them to Bret-Austin from Mania.  I'd tell them to get some episodes of Raw to lay the foundation so they could get a better understanding of what they were doing.>>

 

 

I've actually tried re-watching older episodes of RAW from that era (trading for some older stuff).

 

I'm not sure I'd inflict that upon ANYBODY. :-)

 

 

<<Then when the get to the Mania match, it's so much more rewarding because they have the proper context.

 

 

Quote  

However, odds are, you like Misawa et al---and the top AJPW guys worked with one another A LOT. So, if you enjoy their work, they had a lot of matches with one another to "pad" their stats, so to speak.

 

 

I don't think of it as padding stats.  They still had to go out and perform.  Sometimes they'd hit a homerun.  Sometimes a line drive up the middle.  Sometimes they'd even strike out.  But to me, it's not the sheer quantity of great matches they had, but the quality.  As I said above, the match quality advantage is so great, IMO, that it cancels out whatever "advantage" Michaels has due to poorer quality of opposition.>>

 

 

Fair enough. We disagree, but I fully understand and appreciate your point of view. I might even give AJPW one more chance and check out the 6-men matches you've recommended.

 

See, I can be quite civil. :-)

                         -=Mike

[Guest Brian]

Mike, if you're into shoot style, I'd definately check out Shamrock's early work. He has a great match with Naoki Sano (who's one of the most underrated performers ever) that if you're into the style, I think stacks up well against his match wis Michaels. But then again, shoot-style isn't for everyone.

 

And get the Bret/Flair and Bret/Owen iron man matches if you don't have them already.