Batista...

[Guest The Last Free Voice]

O'Haire>Batista

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Batista has potential. How does a green Batista get better? Expand his potential? Give him some TV time.

 

Not if he's obviously unready to be on TV. The entire purpose of the farm leagues is to make the wresters competent enough to be on TV, and from what I've seen of Bautista so far, he's got a lot more ground to cover.

 

And last I checked, Kane wasn't wasted on him as much as on the Katie Vphik angle.

 

And? Anything is better than the corpse fucking angle, but if you're going to hot-shot Kane against a young rookie, you might as well make it a rookie with passable in ring work.

 

Batista + Flair can't be bad.

 

The fans' indifference to Bautista only gets pushed farther when they put him with a character like Flair, who completely overshadows him.

 

The man is diesel, energetic, and capable. It's unfair to say he doesn't deserve a push when he's been given so little so far.

 

Video packages, a hot-shot push against Kane, a pairing with Flair, and an impending run in the New Horsemen isn't what I would call "little."

 

Chris and Batista expose the business??? You expose the business. They are doing their jobs.

 

Right. You heard it, kids, it's my fault that Chris can't be bothered to even pretend that he's connecting with his punches, or logically escape a furious Maven, instead of idly shrugging him off and hitting embarising phantom punches. Blame me for Bautista's cluelessness in the ring, and his sloppy execution of his already limited offense. If I just ignored them, no one would realize they're innept!

 

The fans react to Nowinski whether you like it or not and with a powerhouse of great diversity like Batista by him, who's to say that they can't be good together?

 

Oh, yeah, I'm really enthralled with Nowinksi's ubber-cheap heat act. The fact that he couldn't even get heat by making fun of Ted Williams says enough about his promo skills to me. Oh, and by "diversity" do you mean the plethora of screams he uses? Because with a move-set I can count on one hand, "diversity" isn't exactly the word I'd use to describe the guy.

 

Bret did blame WCW. But he DID blame Goldberg as well. Concussions happen, but not 3 in one match. And like I said, and that punk Goldberg knows in his black heart he doesn't care enough about the business to be careful. Basically, he sucks, and it cost one good man his career.

 

I never said this was untrue, I'm merely point out that WCW's writers were just as liable for Bret's injury as Goldy was, just like the top brass in the WWE will be liable for anyone that Lesnar and Bautista injure. Catch my drifit?

 

The more stroke he got, the more squashes came his way, the more good workers couldn't work their own, like DDP, Raven, Meng, Hacksaw, and Curt Hennig.

 

Let's see:

 

DDP - benafited from politics more than Goldy ever did, and not much of a worker

Raven - limited worker at best

Meng - horrible worker

Hacksaw - a black eye to the sport

Hennig - washed up, and not a very smart worker to begin with

 

Yeah, quite a list of "good workers" that Goldberg rolled over. Stroke was hardly on Goldberg's side. He had a look, which got him a sizable push (sound familiar?) which got him huge crowd support. Once the usual political players went after him, his superstar status was destroyed with rapid precision, and by the time WCW folded he was just as much a has-been as the rest of the guys on top. He wasn't one of the politicians, he was their play thing.

 

And you want to put Brock Lesnar down?

 

Who said I was putting him down? Lesnar has been fun to watch as of late, but it's an injustice to Goldberg to say that Lesnar is his superior in the ring, because, frankly, Lesnar is just as limited a worker as Goldberg was.

 

And when Brock tends to sell for every man and put over the Big Show, while Goldberg couldn't even execute a proper sidekick after years of experience, I grow a little bitter inside for the carelessness that goes into appreciating an ego and a coward like him.

 

All valid points. Brock sells more, plays along better, and all of that, but Goldberg's attitude wouldn't have become a problem if WCW had kept it from growing out of control, and he wouldn't have been able to injure Hart if they hadn't pushed him too early. Lesnar and Bautista could just as easilly become similar cases, if the situation allowed for it. An ego doesn't grow unless it's fed.

 

I do believe that Lesnar and Hart would've put on a spectacular show. How could either have not?

 

Considering Hart didn't put on an above-passable match in WCW besides the Owen Tribute,

and considering that Lesnar hasn't shown any understanding as far as how to put together a logical, well-paced match (and why should he?), the match would probably end up just as directionless as the Hart/Goldy matches. It's unlikely that a washed up, unmotivated worker is going to get a classic out of one-dimensional worker.

 

I find you intellectually ignorant and desperate to make a point.

 

As opposed to what? Physically ignorant? I find you with little, if anything, to back up your points. You don't have to agree with me, but if you aren't going to bother backing up anything you say, don't call me desperate.

 

Goldberg had all the potential in the whole world and it ended up with a hole in the head. Way to go! Bring on the pain!

 

And who's to say Bautista and Lesnar can't end up the same? I certainly don't see a reason why it couldn't happen, and you haven't done much to convince me otherwise.

[Guest netslob]

"heh heh heh...i knew i'd strike a nerve."

 

Oh yeah your so funny. Bring something to the table rather than pulling cheap flame bait.

Damn, Mighty, you got some anger. But I see your point.

 

Anyway, Vince changes the names, their gimmicks, their whole character of the people he brings up from OVW because he is a wrestling genius and knows what he is doing.

*no-sells everyone's legit points. *

 

NO. I stated, quite clearly, why everyone seems to hate Batisita: his name ISN'T BENOIT. the discussion is CLOSED. please move along , now. AH HAVE SPOKEN!!! HIT MY MUSIC!!!!

 

*jitter-bugs out of the thread *

[Guest Mole]

Batista + Flair can't be bad.

 

The fans' indifference to Bautista only gets pushed farther when they put him with a character like Flair, who completely overshadows him.

 

That is how it works sometimes. When a wrestler has trouble getting over, they stick a manager with them to help them get over. Flair is going to be stuck with Batista to work the mic for him. Nothing wrong with that. Heyman was the same thing for Brock, and it helped Brock get over.

 

The more stroke he got, the more squashes came his way, the more good workers couldn't work their own, like DDP, Raven, Meng, Hacksaw, and Curt Hennig.

 

Let's see:

 

DDP - benafited from politics more than Goldy ever did, and not much of a worker

Raven - limited worker at best

Meng - horrible worker

Hacksaw - a black eye to the sport

Hennig - washed up, and not a very smart worker to begin with

 

Yeah, quite a list of "good workers" that Goldberg rolled over. Stroke was hardly on Goldberg's side. He had a look, which got him a sizable push (sound familiar?) which got him huge crowd support. Once the usual political players went after him, his superstar status was destroyed with rapid precision, and by the time WCW folded he was just as much a has-been as the rest of the guys on top. He wasn't one of the politicians, he was their play thing.

 

Um, limted workers?

 

DDP- Yes, he did benieft from politics, but he was a decent worker. Always getting atleast a *** match, and did give Goldberg one of his best matches ever.

 

Raven- Limted worker? Nah, Raven is a great ring veteran. He has gotten older over the years, so he isn't the same as he used to be. He has one of the best gimmicks in the business, and given the right worker to work with, could still get a good match out of him.

 

Meng- Agree

 

Hacksaw- Agree

 

Hennig- Washed up? Yes, maybe he is. But you can't blame him, he is getting older. However, a limited worker? Defiently not. Just a few years ago, he still was a great wrestler. If it weren't for Hogan's politics, he would of been the top heel in the WWF at the beginning of the 90's. If that were the case, wrestling would be a little different then it is now.

[Guest bob_barron]

I must've missed those ***** classics Hennig was churning out in WCW.

 

The last good Hennig match I remember is v. Bret at KOTR93.

[Guest Mole]

I must've missed those ***** classics Hennig was churning out in WCW.

 

The last good Hennig match I remember is v. Bret at KOTR93.

Well, can you remember the last time Regal had a ** match?

[Guest bob_barron]

Do you mean in tag or singles cause he's just been in tag matches.

 

But I fail to see what Regal has to do with this conversation

[Guest The Czech Republic]

Raven- Limted worker? Nah, Raven is a great ring veteran. He has gotten older over the years, so he isn't the same as he used to be.

As opposed to those rare types that get younger over the years?

[Guest Mole]

Raven- Limted worker? Nah, Raven is a great ring veteran. He has gotten older over the years, so he isn't the same as he used to be.

As opposed to those rare types that get younger over the years?

Yes.

 

Do you mean in tag or singles cause he's just been in tag matches.

 

But I fail to see what Regal has to do with this conversation

 

Well I didn't see what Hennig and his ***** matches had to do with what I said. All I said was that he was a great worker.

 

I said Regal because well, it does say Regal's #1 fan in your profile. And Regal has just been in tag matches? So, how did he hold the IC and Euro title over the past year or so?

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

Raven- Limted worker? Nah, Raven is a great ring veteran. He has gotten older over the years, so he isn't the same as he used to be. He has one of the best gimmicks in the business, and given the right worker to work with, could still get a good match out of him.

"Right worker"? You mean someone that'll carry him and make him look to be better than he really is. That's exactly what happened to John Cena when Angle and Jericho made him look like a million bucks. After that, Cena was revealed to be the average worker he is.

[Guest Mole]

Raven- Limted worker? Nah, Raven is a great ring veteran. He has gotten older over the years, so he isn't the same as he used to be. He has one of the best gimmicks in the business, and given the right worker to work with, could still get a good match out of him.

"Right worker"? You mean someone that'll carry him and make him look to be better than he really is. That's exactly what happened to John Cena when Angle and Jericho made him look like a million bucks. After that, Cena was revealed to be the average worker he is.

Well yes, right worker. If you stick him in their with the Big Show, then he'll suck. But if you give him someone like D'Lo, then he'll have a good match.

[Guest SP-1]

Who said I was putting him down? Lesnar has been fun to watch as of late, but it's an injustice to Goldberg to say that Lesnar is his superior in the ring, because, frankly, Lesnar is just as limited a worker as Goldberg was.

 

Not to pick a fight or anything, but I can't really see how you can think an NCAA champion, and a man that size that can perform a very good Shooting Star Press is a limited worker. They're just holding Brock's technical ability back for now, probably until he hooks up with Angle down the line somewhere.

 

Brock is very athletic for a man his size, and his amateur background and such tell me that he has what it takes to be one of the greats of the business, once they really let him cut loose. Passing such a judgement on his abilities so soon into his career, when he's been put into a "monster" role, seems like jumping the gun a bit, don't you think?

 

SP

[Guest The Hamburglar]

The "he's an amateur champion and they're just holding his technical skills back" argument is a bad one to prove Brock's awesomeness. Legit skills don't necessarily translate to good pro matwork. Example, Dan Severn. However, to compare Lesnar with Goldberg in terms of ring work is simply ridiculous. Goldberg never has and never will sell for others in the way Lesnar does, bump like a mad freak the way Lesnar does, or show such good pacing and timing in his matches. Goldberg would never have been able to drag a half-entertaining match out of the Undertaker. Goldberg and Lesnar aren't even in the same league.

[Guest SP-1]

Yeah, my point was just to not jump to conclusions with Brock just yet. While I'm somewhat just as guilty of that, ultimately I'm still open to Brock winding up mediocre or poor in his future ring offerings.

[Guest Mole]

Yeah, my point was just to not jump to conclusions with Brock just yet. While I'm somewhat just as guilty of that, ultimately I'm still open to Brock winding up mediocre or poor in his future ring offerings.

Yeah, same with me. You never know what that man will use in the squared circle in a few short months. I mean, if anyone saw the SSP that he did puts Kidman's to shame.

 

Besides, him manhandling Show around the ring at Survivor Series was enough for me to like him even more. Anyone who can toss a 500lbs man as if he were a small child gets my props.

[Guest XdojimeX]

Angle vs. Lesnar legit isn't much of a debate. Kurt won at the highest level of competition the sport has while Brock never went past college. We're talking completely different skill levels here. And wasnt there a story awhile back that Brock was talking some shit and they actually had an impromtu roll before a show with Angle handling him pretty nicely, despite being 4 years cold? No contest.

 

Not that any of that crap has relevance to the actual perfomance in the ring. Thats another thing. What's with this weird myth some pro-wrestling fans hang onto that amatuer skills somehow automatically translate to being complete workers in the pro ring. Outside of the discipline in general training and advantages in athleticism an amatuer background can establish, what correlation is there to developing into a good performer inside the squared circle? What the fuck is a great single leg gonna teach you about how to throw a good worked punch? Let alone building to a finish?

[Guest godthedog]

didn't angle actually have a little amateur wrestling match with brock earlier this year, and win? i remember reading something about that online, in the observer i think.

 

if brock/angle does happen at WM, the winner will be very telling of who vince wants to build his company around. all logical signs point to angle winning, as he's proven that he's the total package time & time again.

 

however, i've got this nagging feeling that the wwf is going to totally blow it with that and just have triple h vs somebody for the main event. and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Guest godthedog]

Not that any of that crap has relevance to the actual perfomance in the ring. Thats another thing. What's with this weird myth some pro-wrestling fans hang onto that amatuer skills somehow automatically translate to being complete workers in the pro ring. Outside of the discipline in general training and advantages in athleticism an amatuer background can establish, what correlation is there to developing into a good performer inside the squared circle? What the fuck is a great single leg gonna teach you about how to throw a good worked punch? Let alone building to a finish?

it's just a conclusion people come to after angle's success. they figure that since angle is an amateur champion & he did it so well, other amateur champions should do it just as well. when in reality, angle's just a phenomenon that will probably never be duplicated.

[Guest bob_barron]

Raven- Limted worker? Nah, Raven is a great ring veteran. He has gotten older over the years, so he isn't the same as he used to be.

As opposed to those rare types that get younger over the years?

Yes.

 

Do you mean in tag or singles cause he's just been in tag matches.

 

But I fail to see what Regal has to do with this conversation

 

Well I didn't see what Hennig and his ***** matches had to do with what I said. All I said was that he was a great worker.

 

I said Regal because well, it does say Regal's #1 fan in your profile. And Regal has just been in tag matches? So, how did he hold the IC and Euro title over the past year or so?

I meant recently Regal has just been in tag matches.

 

While yes I am Regal's #1 fan we were discussing other workers so he really had nothing to do with this.

 

I agree with you that Brock is starting to impress me and it looks like his face turn has worked which is a suprise. Plus his loss to the Big Show, hasn't seem to hurt the guy at all

[Guest RickyChosyu]

That is how it works sometimes. When a wrestler has trouble getting over, they stick a manager with them to help them get over. Flair is going to be stuck with Batista to work the mic for him. Nothing wrong with that. Heyman was the same thing for Brock, and it helped Brock get over.

 

Barring Summerslam (which was more anti-Rock than pro-Lesnar) Brock didn't get a sizeable reaction until Heyman turned on him. And putting an extremely green, limited worker with a compelling manager isn't somehow going to remedy their problems. People know Bautista is clueless, whether Flair is accompanying him or not.

 

Um, limted workers?

 

DDP- Yes, he did benieft from politics, but he was a decent worker. Always getting atleast a *** match, and did give Goldberg one of his best matches ever.

 

Yeah, I must have been watching a different worker, because I could have sworn that even with the "in ring veteran" Raven, he could barely manage watchability, and his work with less-talented workers like Savage tended to be downright awful. DDP was mediocre, not decent.

 

Raven- Limted worker? Nah, Raven is a great ring veteran. He has gotten older over the years, so he isn't the same as he used to be. He has one of the best gimmicks in the business, and given the right worker to work with, could still get a good match out of him.

 

What does "best gimicks in the business" have to do with his in-ring work? Good promos do not a good worker make, my friend.

 

Raven's matches that Ricky could be bothered to care about:

w/ Saturn v. Benoit/Malenko '99 Spring Stampede

v. Benoit Souled Out '98

 

Basically, he benefited from a top levle performance from Benoit in both matches, as Chris was the one laying the ground work and controlling the structure. Raven's other stuff was forgettable, and his compelling promos don't do much to change that.

 

Hennig- Washed up? Yes, maybe he is. But you can't blame him, he is getting older. However, a limited worker?  Defiently not. Just a few years ago, he still was a great wrestler. If it weren't for Hogan's politics, he would of been the top heel in the WWF at the beginning of the 90's. If that were the case, wrestling would be a little different then it is now.

 

I'm not blaiming Hennig for being washed up, I'm blaiming the doofus for calling him a "good worker" that Goldy destroyed. And Hennig was never a God of work, he was an obnoxious heel with a tendancy to over-sell, but that's a different story.

[Guest Heel In Peril]

You know? Last time I posted in this thread, the ways you put down my first post that differed Bautista/Lesnar from Goldberg and such really upset me. I felt inclined to then post in retaliation and argue like anyone with some true conviction to his words would do. Explaining my points further, arguing against yours, and generously throwing my opinions at you and your over-analytical, selfglorifying, empty complaints about hard-working wrestlers and how you don't believe they deserve things like walking side by side with Ric Flair or having a video package. But now... now I don't feel quite the same way. You see when you insulted me, not that I was so offended or anything, but I realized that my original hypothesis of Rickychosyu is truly a correct one, "intellectually ignorant and desperate to make a point." I realize you have a problem with the word "intellectually" being there. Perhaps because it's redundant. Perhaps because you ejaculated at the thought of having something more to denounce at my possible expense. However... however I don't think that was it. You see, as much as I've heard how you're the big Puro-Guy around here, and that's all good with me. I think what bothered you the most about it is that you started to believe it might be true. And that burned you a little inside I think. And it probably containing a whole lot more truth than anything you've spent an entire day quoting other posters' stuff so you might be fortunate enough to make two decent points. You see, I can recognize a good point or two, oh yes! But I can also smell bullshit coming a mile away. And I can tell you spend an awful lot of time with the cows, don't you? I'm willing to make a fair wager that you're the type of purohead to denounce most midcard pushes in the WWE at the drop of a hat with little to no good reason. Have anything bad to say about everything in wrestling today? Hmm. I would love to challenge you to say something good about everything in wrestling today and see how far you get before your brains spill out your ears like streamers. But Ricky, my friend, I don't have time for you or your kind of pretentious, be-all bullshit... I'm a wrestling fan. Angle through Xanta Clauz. Any time I spend arguing with you could be spent watching a Bautista match. 'Cause the biggest difference between you and me is: While you see the worst in Bret Hart, Brock Lesnar, Bautista, and even the doofus here, I'll always see the swell where you see the sour, even if my life tends to relate most to a heel in peril. Someone fuckin' tag me...!

[Guest NYCTA Bus No. PA1767]

It's guys like this that give this board some fucking flavor!

[Guest SP-1]

My point wasn't that Brock's amateur skills make him the best ever or anything. My point was that indications seem to point to Brock Lesnar being quite a driving force if they ever cut him loose and let him go all out. He can apparently fly, he has a decent amateur background (NCAA isn't Olympics, but it's pretty damn good), and is amazingly athletic for a man of his size.

 

He has not, under any circumstances, reached his peak yet. I can't wait for him to do it if he continues along this path, and I'm going to enjoy watching him as he gets there and afterwards.

 

Kurt Angle is a pehnomenon that will not be duplicated, I agree. But it is my opinion that Brock Lesnar may be his own force to be reckoned with as well.

 

As for Bautista, everyone is attempting to judge him based on the character push he's been given so far. He hasn't really worked a matching since coming to RAW, he's just powerbombed Kane a couple of times. Let the man get a few rounds in the ring with different types of performers and then make an attempt at tearing him down. Otherwise, you run the risk of wasting your keystroke life, and being the position of being told, "I told you so," down the line. I think that with Brock especially and Bautista and pretty much anyone relatively new, judgement should be held in reserve until they really get a chance to go out there and show off a bit.

 

SP

[Guest Heel In Peril]

Hello, all. I realize now that the previous post I made probably should've been in NHB instead of WWE. I beg for a minute to adjust to the rules here.

[Guest Heel In Peril]

Well said, SP.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

You know? Last time I posted in this thread, the ways you put down my first post that differed Bautista/Lesnar from Goldberg and such really upset me.

 

It wasn't my intention to insult or offend you, and I feel I did nothing to warrant your offense. If my opinions seem harsh to you, you're probably not the first, or the last, but that doesn't mean you have to agree with them. Hate to be rude, but I think you're reading too much into what I'm saying, and I think you need to lighten up.

 

I felt inclined to then post in retaliation and argue like anyone with some true conviction to his words would do. Explaining my points further, arguing against yours, and generously throwing my opinions at you and your over-analytical, selfglorifying, empty complaints about hard-working wrestlers and how you don't believe they deserve things like walking side by side with Ric Flair or having a video package.

 

Don't you think you're being a little dramatic here? Of course they're hard working, but hard-work doesn't always-equal success, especially if it's directed in the wrong areas. The wrestling business is full of dedicated individuals, but it's not as if all of them are able to be succesfull, in fact, few of them are. I hope I'm not the first one to explain this to you, because it's a fairly accepted concept, as unfare as it is. Also, if you care to point out how my posts are selfglorifying in any way, feel free to share. I mean, do you find it easy to be so vague in your accusations without actually saying anything? Backing up your points isn't that tough, and seeing as I went the trouble of doing so, I think you should at least do the same, as opposed to just tossing out accusations like you've got ten million of them.

 

But now... now I don't feel quite the same way. You see when you insulted me, not that I was so offended or anything, but I realized that my original hypothesis of Rickychosyu is truly a correct one, "intellectually ignorant and desperate to make a point."

 

Ok, feel free to have that opinion, but at least I made a point. You see, I can't really see a point in this thread where you have accomplished that, because any attempts you've made have been far too vague.

 

I realize you have a problem with the word "intellectually" being there. Perhaps because it's redundant. Perhaps because you ejaculated at the thought of having something more to denounce at my possible expense.

 

It's not my fault your sentances don't make sense. I'm pointing out the obvious flaws in your arguement, so unless you care to make a point...

 

However... however I don't think that was it. You see, as much as I've heard how you're the big Puro-Guy around here, and that's all good with me.

 

Well, I try not to bring it up in this folder, so I'm glad that you're ok with it.

 

I think what bothered you the most about it is that you started to believe it might be true. And that burned you a little inside I think. And it probably containing a whole lot more truth than anything you've spent an entire day quoting other posters' stuff so you might be fortunate enough to make two decent points.

 

Sorry, but I'm still not even sure what "intellectually ignorant" means, so admiting that it applies to me is out of the question. And again, you haven't made a decent point at all, by my count, so accusing me of the same makes no sense.

 

You see, I can recognize a good point or two, oh yes! But I can also smell bullshit coming a mile away. And I can tell you spend an awful lot of time with the cows, don't you?

 

I don't have time to listen to this crap from someone who can't even remember what the arguement is. Maybe your middle school buds are impressed with this, but if you want to take part in childish mud-slinging, head to No Holds Barred, because I'm not in the mood.

 

I'm willing to make a fair wager that you're the type of purohead to denounce most midcard pushes in the WWE at the drop of a hat with little to no good reason.

 

Good Lord, read the post, and you'll see at least nine or ten reasons. Do me a favor and re-read the post, because it's _right there_ if you're willing to look for it. Why should I be bothered to listen to you when you can't even bother to read everything I have to say?

 

But Ricky, my friend, I don't have time for you or your kind of pretentious, be-all bullshit... I'm a wrestling fan.

 

Great, good for you, I hope that works out well for you.

 

'Cause the biggest difference between you and me is: While you see the worst in Bret Hart, Brock Lesnar, Bautista, and even the doofus here, I'll always see the swell where you see the sour, even if my life tends to relate most to a heel in peril. Someone fuckin' tag me

 

Right. So I don't think Lesnar is a top-levle worker, and I only see his limitations? I said before that I've enjoyed watching him, so how more plainly do I have to put it? Just because I don't call him the best thing since slided bread doesn't mean I see the worst in him. It does't take a genius to know that pointing out someone's limitations and hating on them are two vary different things, so not only are your accusations totally unfounded here, but they're illogical as well. Jesus Christ on Crutches, do you think about a word that you type, or do you just fade in and out?

 

Oh, and I hate that Bret guy. That's why I said he took part in the best WWF match I've ever seen - because I'm all about that hate.

 

So, unless you have anything intelligent to say, I think your act is stale, your points are worthless, and I think you need to stop trying so hard to be offensive and try *thinking* about the things you say, because believe or not, it's hard to take a person seriously when they're babling incoherently about nothing.

 

Sorry, but you still haven't made your point, and I don't intend to waste anymore of my time seeing if you'll ever do so. Goodbye.

[Guest What?]

I'll always see the swell where you see the sour, even if my life tends to relate most to a heel in peril. Someone fuckin' tag me...!

Wow...poetic...fuckin deep as the ocean blue.

 

 

 

I fail to see anywhere in your argument anything that actually backs up your point...I dunno...help me out here...

[Guest Heel In Peril]

I suppose my thoughts may come off a little riddled at times. My opinion on your opinions were indeed a little offensive, in my opinion. I didn't intend on answering that way as much as I felt the urge to defend a couple of wrestlers not through examples of why they're great, but through my thoughts on why they're not bad and/or shouldn't be compared to Goldberg. My "point" was to show the difference between Goldberg and Lesnar, even Batista; and even bash Goldberg as I've lost tremendous respect for him with each new fact I learn of him. I never desired to provide proof behind my "accusations" or behind why Batista deserves anything, as I'm not even that big a fan of his really. My concern was to place my two cents about Goldberg, those of which do not recognize the ediquette of backing every word I say with an example, and I think my point was made clear in my first post. I've read every post in every thread I post in and I've expected those who read mine to have done the same, so I wouldn't have to repeat things in order to make an opinion known. Perhaps I was wrong. Perhaps how I've been communicating here or in general is wrong. And perhaps I've been too offensive, vague, and incoherent even to realize that... but I don't think so. Nevertheless, it would seem I'm the bad guy in this conversation, even though I was defending two guys who were being given an unfair rap for being huge and greener than some, basically. But that's okay. I don't "blame" you Ricky. I've got no flame for you. I'm quite used to relating to a heel in peril. After all, Jesus Christ on Crutches, it's only a message board, man!

[Guest What?]

I suppose my thoughts may come off a little riddled at times. My opinion on your opinions were indeed a little offensive, in my opinion. I didn't intend on answering that way as much as I felt the urge to defend a couple of wrestlers not through examples of why they're great, but through my thoughts on why they're not bad and/or shouldn't be compared to Goldberg. My "point" was to show the difference between Goldberg and Lesnar, even Batista; and even bash Goldberg as I've lost tremendous respect for him with each new fact I learn of him. I never desired to provide proof behind my "accusations" or behind why Batista deserves anything, as I'm not even that big a fan of his really. My concern was to place my two cents about Goldberg, those of which do not recognize the ediquette of backing every word I say with an example, and I think my point was made clear in my first post. I've read every post in every thread I post in and I've expected those who read mine to have done the same, so I wouldn't have to repeat things in order to make an opinion known. Perhaps I was wrong. Perhaps how I've been communicating here or in general is wrong. And perhaps I've been too offensive, vague, and incoherent even to realize that... but I don't think so. Nevertheless, it would seem I'm the bad guy in this conversation, even though I was defending two guys who were being given an unfair rap for being huge and greener than some, basically. But that's okay. I don't "blame" you Ricky. I've got no flame for you. I'm quite used to relating to a heel in peril. After all, Jesus Christ on Crutches, it's only a message board, man!

Wait........

 

 

What?

 

 

 

I didn't understand any of that...

 

 

 

 

 

 

maybe it's because I don't relate....to a heel in peril! Someone fuckin tag me!

[Guest Mole]

Barring Summerslam (which was more anti-Rock than pro-Lesnar) Brock didn't get a sizeable reaction until Heyman turned on him. And putting an extremely green, limited worker with a compelling manager isn't somehow going to remedy their problems. People know Bautista is clueless, whether Flair is accompanying him or not.

 

Actually, putting a manager with a green wrestler is a good idea. The manager can help the wrestler get over, and gives him a kind of rub. Besides, Brock was getting a crowd reaction way before Heyman turned on him. Why do you think Heyman turned on him in the first place? Because Brock was getting over enough that he didn't need Heyman anymore. The only people who know anything really about Batista are the SmarKs. The casual fans don't know much about him, so sticking Flair with him is a good idea. Every wrestling fan knows that Flair is a legend, so if they see Flair with Batista, they might care some more. So, with Flair being with Batista is a very good idea. Besides, what does clueless mean anyway??

 

 

Yeah, I must have been watching a different worker, because I could have sworn that even with the "in ring veteran" Raven, he could barely manage watchability, and his work with less-talented workers like Savage tended to be downright awful. DDP was mediocre, not decent.

 

Oh ya, DDP can't work a match at all. What about the match with Goldberg? Or the match with Benoit and Raven? What about the Hogan/Flair/Sting/DDP title match at Spring Stampede? There are more matches, but I am too lazy to look it up. Basically, DDP isn't a medicore wrestler, but a decent one. He knows what he is doing in the ring, and always gives his all. I'd say his average PPV match was ***. Now a wrestler who averages *** is pretty good in my book.

 

What does "best gimicks in the business" have to do with his in-ring work? Good promos do not a good worker make, my friend.

 

Raven's matches that Ricky could be bothered to care about:

w/ Saturn v. Benoit/Malenko '99 Spring Stampede

v. Benoit Souled Out '98

 

Basically, he benefited from a top levle performance from Benoit in both matches, as Chris was the one laying the ground work and controlling the structure. Raven's other stuff was forgettable, and his compelling promos don't do much to change that.

 

Yes, you are right. A good promo doesn't make a good worker, my bad. However, Raven has had more then 2 good matches. How about the only ***** match in ECW, who was in that? Raven. What about the Benoit/DDP/Raven match? What about all the matches he had in ECW? Ask any other person on this board, and they will agree with me. Raven is a good worker, not great, but good. Once again, there are more matches, but I am too lazy to look it up.

 

 

I'm not blaiming Hennig for being washed up, I'm blaiming the doofus for calling him a "good worker" that Goldy destroyed. And Hennig was never a God of work, he was an obnoxious heel with a tendancy to over-sell, but that's a different story.

 

Well, you kind of contradicted yourself here. Being a obnoxious heel has nothing to do with one's in ring skills. If anything, being heel means you control most of the match, which Hennig did. So, if you don't think Hennig is a good worker, who do you think is? Besides, to me, over-selling is a good thing. Look at the Rock, he is a big time over-seller. However, doing so makes your opponent look good, which is better then someone like the Undertaker who doesn't sell at all. Which would you rather have, a heel who doesn't sell at all, or one who sells too much and makes his opponent look good? I am going with the latter.