David Flair *still* sucks

[Guest Redhawk]

Did you catch Ric's boy "training" last night? Amazingly, he's still crappy. He couldn't even do a hiptoss correctly. My new criteria for judging if someone sucks is, "Would they have made it to the final 13 on 'Tough Enough?'" Well, does anyone really think that David Flair would make it if he weren't Ric's son? Hell no. He's about as talented as Chris Ni., the North Carolina kid who quit the last "Tough Enough" because he knew he was about to get cut. And while Chris Ni. had only been training for a couple of months, David Flair has been getting paid to suck for like a couple of YEARS. Now that's sad.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

This should be fun.

 

"Did you catch Ric's boy "training" last night?"

 

Nod.

 

"Amazingly, he's still crappy. He couldn't even do a hiptoss correctly."

 

He did it fine.  If anything, the guy he did it to was at fault for not carrying it over.  Until the Storm/RVD exhibition, the D. Flair running the ropes thing was the most work rate there had been all night.  So I ask, how is he still crappy?

 

"My new criteria for judging if someone sucks is, "Would they have made it to the final 13 on 'Tough Enough?'"

 

That's a poor criteria.  Because there are a dozen or more great Indy workers out there who are better than the "great" Trips and Angle.  Why is Jerry Lynn released?  Because he sucks.  Was he worse than Maven because they are keeping him around......how about Josh Mathews. is Lynn worse than him?  

 

"Well, does anyone really think that David Flair would make it if he weren't Ric's son? Hell no."

 

Finally something makes sense that you say.  Look at his debut work at Souled Out 99 and compare to his recent OVW stuff.  Worlds different.  Is he a godo worker?  No.  Is he an average worker?  Eh, not really.  Has he improved 100%?  Yes.  David was not Reid in the sense that he didn't wrestle before he made his WCW debut and my guess would be that his aspirations before that were mininal.  So to go from no motivation and no traning and thrown in the ring, to getting proper training and actual wrestling skills.

 

"He's about as talented as Chris Ni., the North Carolina kid who quit the last "Tough Enough" because he knew he was about to get cut."

 

How so?  Have you seen a full match of Chris Ni to compare to Flair's best work?  

 

"And while Chris Ni. had only been training for a couple of months, David Flair has been getting paid to suck for like a couple of YEARS."

 

He got paid to suck in the Hogan era of WCW when things were falling apart.  Yet, if you look at early 2000, you can never say he wasn't busting his ass to at least *try* to do something worthwhile.  Most of the time it was WCW's inability to train him properly and rush him into the ring with no experience.

 

"Now that's sad."

 

Eh, I would say *your* arguments are sadder.

 

Tim

[Guest Redhawk]

When I saw the hiptoss, it immediately reminded me of Chris Ni. and Shadrick's "Tough Enough" troubles.

 

The Tough Enough criteria thing is like this: If Wrestler X had been one of the 250 people invited to the auditions, would he have been picked? Look at (almost) everyone in the WWF roster, and you can argue that they would be. Some would get over primarily on size (Big Show) some on look (Test), some on athletic ability (Jerry Lynn) and some on charisma (Christian). Now it's not the only reason they'd get picked, but it would play a major part. Now look at David Flair. Is there *anything* about him that stands out, besides the fact that he's Ric's son? He's not big, not cut, not a superb athlete or good on the mic. What does he bring to the table. And just because he's 100% better than he was in WCW, it doesn't mean that he's any good.

 

By "sucks," I'm not just referring to workrate. Not every wrestler should have a Chris Benoit-Kurt Angle style, because that would be boring. You need different styles in the ring to have a good product. So while Undertaker might "suck" to workrate freaks like yourself who watch OVW and indy wrestling, I'd say "suck" is "not bringing anything entertaining to the table." And what does David bring to the table? Nothing but genes.

 

Another thing: he didn't have to be rushed into the ring, as you say. He could have refused and decided to get better. Hell, he shouldn't have even got into the business if he wasn't willing to work. But he's shown that he is by going to OVW. Anyway, it's not like they physically made him get in the ring, so any ineptitude he showed in WCW was his own fault.

[Guest dr deaf]

you have tolerance for differnt styles, shouldn't you be a bit inclined to have tolerance for differnt skill levels?  True, david may not be the greatest but he tries.  He busts his ass and gives the effort, give him time and he will get better.  If he had no potential then he wouldn't be around, look at Watts' kid after everyone realized.  

 

If anything though, you should give him props for busting his ass and taking a good beating.  It's a lot more effort than your established stars like hogan, hall, and nash have even been closely acused of putting out.  If the will's there, the rest will come in time.

[Guest starvenger]

David Flair has been getting paid to suck for like a couple of YEARS. Now that's sad.

I think, by having the Undertaker help (ahem) "put him over", he just earned his developmental salary.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"By "sucks," I'm not just referring to workrate. Not every wrestler should have a Chris Benoit-Kurt Angle style, because that would be boring."

 

I would be very happy if everyone had the ability and worked as hard as Benoit in the ring, even if the style was different.

 

"You need different styles in the ring to have a good product."

 

Very much agreed.  This is something the WWF *does not* have.

 

"So while Undertaker might "suck" to workrate freaks like yourself who watch OVW and indy wrestling, I'd say "suck" is "not bringing anything entertaining to the table."

 

What *does* Undertaker bring to the table though?  His mic work is nothing special, he can't move in the ring as well anymore, his matches for the most part are horrible.  Does he draw?  Certainly not on a consistant basis.  TV ratings and PPV buyrates are not up because of him.  Sure he gets pops, but so did Nash at most WCW live shows.  That didn't mean he was worth a shit though.

 

"And what does David bring to the table? Nothing but genes."

 

And we all know that.  But if he improves, he brings a new talent and a respected name to the table.  David will never be as good as his father......he probably won't be better than mediocre to average, but I don't get your point.  He was on one show to further an angle (al beit a stupid, rehashed one).

 

"Another thing: he didn't have to be rushed into the ring, as you say. He could have refused and decided to get better. Hell, he shouldn't have even got into the business if he wasn't willing to work."

 

He was brought in for a ONE time PPV match and then to turn on his dad.  Who knows what WCW bookers were thinking back then......trying to rationalize some of their booking will make a person go crazy.  BUT, your 19, you have the oppurtunity to be on National TV every week, Wrestling is not your first passion but you can be on anyways and get paid for it.........any 19 year old I know would do it in a flash.

 

"But he's shown that he is by going to OVW."

 

You lost me here......

 

"Anyway, it's not like they physically made him get in the ring, so any ineptitude he showed in WCW was his own fault."

 

See above.  I still don't understand your argument.  But such is some things.....or something like that

 

Tim

[Guest Tony149]

David looks a little bigger than his WCW days. He got off to a real bad start in his young wrestling career.

[Guest Redhawk]

What does the Undertaker bring to the table?

 

Um, did you hear the crowd when he came out last night? Obviously Taker can't move as well because he's like 40. And he may not draw like a Rock or Austin, but he draws well enough to be in like 4 or 5 PPV main events in the last couple of years. His mic work isn't Angle-Rock level, but he's good enough to be allowed mic time, unlike the Hardys. And besides all that, he sells, whic is the bottom line. I don't see anyone clamoring for any Chris Benoit merchandise, as good as he is, but I've seen lots of "Deadman Inc" stuff around.

 

On another note, why does everyone assume David is busting his ass to get better? Unless you can somehow get in his head and figure out that he's trying really hard, there's no way to tell that isn't hearsay. For all we know, he could have loads of natural talent and just be lazy as hell.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"Um, did you hear the crowd when he came out last night? Obviously Taker can't move as well because he's like 40. And he may not draw like a Rock or Austin, but he draws well enough to be in like 4 or 5 PPV main events in the last couple of years."

 

Really, because last time I checked, Kevin Nash got good to great reactions in WCW and main evented a ton of PPV's, yet didn't draw shit.  If Undertaker doesn't wrestle Austin or Rock on PPV, he doesn't draw, plain and simple.  See Backlash and Judgement Day 2001 for an example of "drawing" as it pertains to Austin.

 

*SNIP*

 

"On another note, why does everyone assume David is busting his ass to get better? Unless you can somehow get in his head and figure out that he's trying really hard, there's no way to tell that isn't hearsay. For all we know, he could have loads of natural talent and just be lazy as hell."

 

You make a lot of assumptions.  Such as David being in the business to make money, David not taking the time out to train right being his own fault, etc.

 

Tim

[Guest dr deaf]

I don't know for sure obviously, but I think it's safe to make the assumption that he's working for the money because he's been taken off national tv, he's lost the big family fued with his dad, and more than likely he's lost the money that was being thrown around when he first got started.

 

Now you take that, a kid who lost most of what was thrown right in his lap, and you see what he's doing now:  Working for an indy fed.  Doing the developemental training, saying the prayers and takings the vitamins.  Wouldn't that point to someone who's putting their heart into their work?  

 

Sorry, had a hogan moment.

[Guest DokDoyle]

Another thing: he didn't have to be rushed into the ring, as you say. He could have refused and decided to get better.

does anyone know how long he was supposed to be in for in the first place?  I don't remember the angle. (I've blocked out most of WCW from my memories)

[Guest Mystery Eskimo]

David's no Ric yet, but I think he has potential. I'm sure he'd be a better worker than half the roster anyway.

[Guest Redhawk]

Does ANYONE draw when they're not facing Austin or The Rock? No.

 

And by drawing power, I'm assuming that you're basing the PPV's buyrate solely on the main event. That's not smart. Some people buy the PPV for other matches, and at the same time a lot of people will be interested as hell in a PPV and just not buy it because they know they can get the results for free and the tape later on for $15.

 

If you wanna see how popular someone is, listen to their pops. Test gets little to no reaction in most markets, so he won't be headlining anything soon. But Taker gets huge pops, even when he's supposed to be a heel, so he's a main eventer.

 

And when did I say that David Flair's only in it for money? It is his own fault for not training right, though. To say it's not is like someone blaming a teacher for a bad grade they earned or blaming McDonald's for why they got fat.

[Guest Vyce]

In all honesty, David Flair impressed me more in that ring Monday night than Scott Hall did in his little squash with Spike Dudley.

 

And Hall gets to co-main event Wrestlemania this year.

 

I feel bad for David, because no matter how hard he tries, or how much he improves, there will ALWAYS be people who take one brief look at him and automatically go, "He SUCKS!"

 

Even at his current skill level, I'd take him over a good half-dozen current WWF employees.

[Guest Human Fly]

I give him a lot of credit for still sticking with it. He was put into a very tough situation in WCW. Can you imagine what Maven would have gone through if he won the IC in his first month with the company? It probably wouldn't have been much worse then what David Flair went through after he won the U.S. title. I'd be sick of people telling me I was coasting off of my father's rep and I didn't deserve anything. He's working hard and trying to become good. I hope he succeeds.

[Guest Redhawk]

There might be six people who you'd take David Flair over, but the WWF is overloaded with talent anyway, so those six probably are never on TV anyway.

 

And I really can't think of a reason why you'd take Flair over whoever those half dozen are. Like I said, the only thing unique about him is his dad. He's just so ... normal. And in wrestling, normal is very bad for business.

[Guest supersalvadorian]

Okay, so maybe David Flair isn't all that great, but he has improved a good bit and always seem to bust his ass out there. How many people in the WWF can you say that about? Anyhow, it's Reid that makes me wonder. I get the feeling that in a couple of years, if he wants to, he could become a pro wrestler and a kick-ass one at that. maybe even better than his dad.

 

 

 

 

Supersalvadorian

[Guest goodhelmet]

Simply put, David Flair is the result of the nepotism that exists in the wrestling industry following in the footsteps of David Sammartino, Greg Gagne, Eric Watts and Dustin Rhodes. Only Dustin has shown an ounce of credibility out of these guys and it just demonstrates why the good ol' boy network needs to be cleansed from wrestling.

 

On the other hand, The Rock and Mr. Perfect are the products of wrestling daddys so maybe there is room for a little nepotism, but David Flair? No.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

There's been some great wrestling famalies (harts,hennings,windahms) but as goodhelmet says there's been some bad ones to me the worst was david flair i mean he's a former US champion AND tag team champion at least ric apoligized for it.

[Guest supersalvadorian]

On the other hand, The Rock and Mr. Perfect are the products of wrestling daddys so maybe there is room for a little nepotism, but David Flair? No.

 

You make a good point, goodhelmet. There is one thing you forget: unlike Flair, Rhodes, or Watts, neither The Rock nor Mr. Perfect had their father's pull when they got big in the WWF. They got over by their own personalities. Same goes for other second generation stars, like Rikishi, Eddie Guerrero, Rey Misterio, and others.

 

 

Supersalvadorian

[Guest EUX4life]

i just can't believe that the subject of nepotism came up on this board and nobody bothered to mention stephanie mcmahon as either the headpiece of the promotion OR as head booker.  either that fad is dying out or this board is slipping.  a lot of times you take topics that have nothing to do with it and somehow manage to insult stephanie, and now something falls into your laps and you don't take it?  maybe some of you should get into training and start busting your ass in your stephanie bashing classes

[Guest Brian]

Well, Triple H drew well in 200 no matter who he was facing. He probably would have done great on his own in 2001 had they not turned him heel. Jericho did pretty good numbers in 2000 in terms of sales.

[Guest BaronVonStevie]

Simply put, David Flair is the result of the nepotism that exists in the wrestling industry following in the footsteps of David Sammartino, Greg Gagne, Eric Watts and Dustin Rhodes.

a year or two ago I would have agreed with you. When David held the WCW United States belt it was a desgrace and I was screaming "Erick Watts" like the rest of us but now David is so far out ot the spotlight. He's paying his dues like everyone else. Give the kid a break and wait for him to come into his own. He is still very young. Don't crucify him if he doesn't wrestle like Ric Flair now.

[Guest Tolwyn]

WCW screwed this boy few years back but now he's trainin' hard and trying and imho he's improvced alot.Still not enough to warrant his appearance on a actual show but he's trying.

[Guest artDDP]

Kevin Nash insisted David be pushed to the moon to make Ric Flair look bad.  If you remember, Nash used his time as WCW's head booker to settle grudges, crush enemies, and put out the fires of anyone who dared sell one more T-shirt than he.

 

David couldn't say no because he was so young and here's the biggest manufactured star in the history of the business telling you that you're a great heel and to keep it up.  It's very overwhelming and it's not like David's father is known for saying "no" to management.

[Guest The Vanilla Midget]

You make a good point, goodhelmet. There is one thing you forget: unlike Flair, Rhodes, or Watts, neither The Rock nor Mr. Perfect had their father's pull when they got big in the WWF. They got over by their own personalities. Same goes for other second generation stars, like Rikishi, Eddie Guerrero, Rey Misterio, and others.

i would disagree with you about the rock.  iirc rocks dad got in contact with pat patterson who organised everything for the rock.  and also, do you really think he would have gotten his break so easily if it werent for his father and grandfather? becuase by all the reports i've heard, rock was pretty damn bad in the beginning.

[Guest Loss4Words]

Um, knowing how HATED Flair was by WCW management, how can anyone say he's a product of nepotism? Can you really see Eric Bischoff trying to cut Ric Flair any favors? If anything, David Flair has SUFFERED for being the son of God. If Tristan Nash turns on his dad at Backlash, that's an entirely other story.

[Guest The Vanilla Midget]

David Flair has SUFFERED for being the son of God.

makes you realise how badly steffi graf and andre agassi's kid is gonna have it, *both* his parents are legends of the sport.  poor kid, people will expect him to be the best player ever, and chances are that he wont be.