Insulting

[Guest Tim Cooke]

You can call it progressive.

 

You can call it innovative.

 

You can call it unpredictable.

 

But the crap on TNA tonight is just that, crap.

 

First off, all the shoot stuff non sense. Who is this appealing to again?

 

Oh yes, the internet fans. But then everyone wants TNA to get big and compete. That will never happen with shoot angles that only a few people on the internet care about.

 

And then the wrestling. Christ. The SAT's and Divine Storm expose the business worse than the Rock's punches. Brian Lee can't even execute an elbow drop properly.

 

Thank God we have an illegal converter or else I wouldn't have even lasted 45 minutes.

 

Keep on smoking the crack Vinnie. But just remember, smoking the crack will hurt your sex life. And if that gets ruined, then you won't be able to jack off every week in front of the 100 or so people who buy TNA.

 

Tim, who has already seen Russo help kill one promotion and is well on his way to killing a second.

 

BTW, this stuff isn't unpredictable. It is as predictable as everything Russo does is.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I boldly predict that every single Russo detractor who didn't even watch the show will run in here and agree with you.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Nah, this will be kind of like the HHH in 2000 debate.

 

This stuff sucks, HHH has always sucked.

 

But to each his own I guess.

 

Tim

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

It beats the jobber matches they've been running lately.

 

...

 

except for Alex Winters who I actually liked.

 

I don't disgree with you, it is predictable.

 

But I was entertained today.

[Guest RedJed]

I can understand certain peoples hatred for Russo on TV but I don't get how anyone could have seen a problem with the AMW-NC single matches, especially Storm-Slash.

 

And why do people keep thinking that Russo is booking all of this?

[Guest RedJed]

First off, all the shoot stuff non sense. Who is this appealing to again?

 

Oh yes, the internet fans. But then everyone wants TNA to get big and compete. That will never happen with shoot angles that only a few people on the internet care about.

It's not catering to just the internet fans, it's just an attempt to add a realism sense to storylines, thats all. I don't really think the majority of whats been said by Piper and Russo was over that many peoples heads, unless they didn't know about Owen Harts death, etc.

 

Anyway they have to start somewhere, and if they really are just catering more than not to the internet fans right now, I say go for it. Like I said you have to start somewhere. How else is word going to get spread about the ppvs without TV clearance? Think about it.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Realism?

 

Har har.

 

If you wanted some realism, then you should have wrestlers that know how ot wrestle without exposing the business.

 

Professional Wrestling is a work. If we are running "realistic" angles based on reality that are suppose to be interpreted as "real", then the wrestling in the ring has to be real, correct?

 

All Russo is doing is spewing out shit to feed his own ego. He is making himself the central heel.

 

How is that going to help any of the wrestlers? And don't answer that he will transfer his heel heat to other workers...because we already saw that not happen in WCW.

 

Tim

[Guest RedJed]

Well he was the booker in WCW, and from all official accounts, he's not in TNA. So there may be a difference in that aspect.

 

The realism is the apparent legit heat which would add to the drama of matches and/or the whole SE-Oldschool storyline. Thats all. It's based from a seemingly legitimate feeling of how the direction of the company should go in in different varying opinions. You're talking about adding realism to actual matches, not the storylines, which is a completely different thing. Adding a sort of mystique or possible realism to heat between guys in a worked match, etc can work........look at the interest that got drummed up with Michaels and Bret Hart leading to the Survivor Series 5 years ago. Even before the whole incident in that match, there was alot of anticipation based on the legit hatred those two had.

 

I don't see TNA totally "exposing the business" by the workrate aspect (or lack thereof) AT ALL. That seems completely nitpicking when one guy is the drizzling shits in the ring (I think you said Brian Lee) but thats just how I see it. I haven't seen much of any other examples in this promotion that the wrestlers have exposed the business by working a match.

 

So your idea you would have to make this promotion better is "adding realism to the matches" right? How would that appeal to a potential pro wrestling fan who maybe is sick of the WWE, etc? We already have UFC, PRIDE, and puro in that aspect.

 

Plain and simple, from what I gather, this is an attempt to get the promotion and their fans to gain a oldschool feel more than anything, and possibly revert to that by the end of this storyline. I don't see how thats a bad thing.

[Guest Black Tiger]

Russo is only a pawn in the bigger feud, its designed to draw in the marks. Its SE vs. Wrestling. Memphis has always been a strong area for wrestling since the 1950's.

[Astro101 0]

Tonight was a decent show. I have no problem with the shoot angles really, but everyone has their own opinion.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

If you want an example of realistic, non shoot storylines, look no further than the NWA from 1986-1988. The IV Horsemen were based totally in reality, but not in the Russo shoot way.

 

As for TNA not exposing the business in the ring, did you watch tonight? DId you see the SAT's work almost in slow motion for what they usually do and still blow moves?

 

Did you see Brian Lee not know how to hit two consecutive elbows correctly?

 

Did you see who was in the Main Event?

 

Typical Russo bullshit.

 

But if you like it, by all means, enjoy. Because they won't be around a year from now, unless Russo gets into some money marks ear.

 

Tim

[Guest Black Tiger]

I have to disagree Tim, I think unless something drastic happens, then they'll last for at least a few years. Russo is around for mic skills and because Smart Marks know who he is, the Memphis marks will always go to see the shows, because they're Memphis marks.

 

TNA needs buyrates for their shows until they get a TV deal, so they bring in Vince Russo, a well known person with smart marks, who will read reviews like the ones by Dames and will see that they have a good product going and order the show, Russo is just the worm on the hook.

[Guest Slapnuts00]

I am a diehard TNA fan that has ordered almost every show and has enjoyed every show. Tonight was complete and utter crap. You can't convince me that Russo is not booking, no doubt in my mind now.

[Guest CoreyLazarus416]

Hey, Slap, ever think that maybe that's what the TNA brass WANTS you to think?

 

Think about it for a moment. Russo comes in, TNA checks out sites like the SmartMarks (which we KNOW they do), browses the forums, and sees that we hate Russo's booking. They know that Russo embodies Sports Entertainment, and that Jerry Jarrett (with help, of course) embodies Old-School Wrestling (booking-wise, for THIS promotion). So how do you get Russo over as a dick heel? Have tons of SPORTZ ENTERTAINMENT~! whenever he's on, and old-school wrestling whenever he's not on.

 

I, personally, liked this show. I'd say 6/10, around average, even with its faults. Harrises? I don't like 'em, but used right, and you got yourself a good thing going. I think Russo having Ron and Don as his own personal security is actually a good idea, as it's proven that Ron and Don can't wrestle good matches, but are still physically intimidating. They also help add to the Sports Entertainment feel of Russo's aura with them being less-than-good brawlers with size and tattoos and goatees, but get pushed anyways. Throw in BG James, who was always in on SPORTZ ENTERTAINMENT~! from it's start, and only succeeded due to SE, and you have yourselves a nice little stable.

 

I'm also not as offended by Brian Lee as most people seem to be. For a man his size and his age, he can still move decently. Sure, the weakest link in the AMW/Disciples feud, but I sitll enjoyed Wildcat/Lee. I actually enjoyed a little more than I did Storm/Slash, for some reason.

 

Get rid of the SAT. Tell them to polish their moveset, or else they're gone for good. Ditto with Divine Storm. Sure, they may be over with some people, but their matches are pretty bad. Exciting? Not really. I'm more bored by Joel and Jose than I am by a HHH match, honestly. Hey, at least HHH can CONNECT with his moves, more often than not. Although I must give praise where it is due, as it appears that Joel is trying to improve a great deal. If he stops trying to be a high-flyer against people that fly better than him, he might have something going there. The SAT are only good for their "innovative" double-team moves, and for the Spanish Fly. Everything else is just below-average backyard wrestling in a professional setting.

 

Like I said, the show gets a 6/10 from me, meaning it'd be a D- using my Algebra II teacher's grading system.

[Guest Slapnuts00]

That's a smart move, yup, find out what the fans hate the most and fill the show they're paying 10 bucks to see with it! RUSSO IS A GENIUS! I don't want to pay to see the Harrises vs. Jeff Jarret in a boring squash main event, Red taken out of a potentially exciting match for no reason, tons of Russo and the Harrises on screen with a completely inappropriate segment where a woman was berated and beaten. It was a bad show in my opinion. You could have loved it, fine, but I'm gonna give you my opinion too. If Russo's objective was to get a loyal TNA fan who has ordered just about every show to stop ordering and watching the show in disgust, well then he's succeeded.

[Guest RedJed]

I think the point is for you to hate him and the whole SE group in the first place though, not to the point where just because you don't like what those characters did, you stop ordering though. I dunno, I will say give the angle a chance but if you're convinced of your beliefs, so be it.

 

I didn't like the segment with Athena being berated in a sense where I did really dislike Russo because it came across pretty realistic to me. I don't see how it was innappropriate given the situation and the storyline to it though. It made sense to do it though since the arena is full of fans of her, for whatever reason, and it played into what Russo was preaching. Much more smart than just calling the fans "rednecks" or whatever. Same with the Harris Boys. Everyone knows they are worthless piles of shit, even management themselves probably. So they just put them with another person who is in the same league in Russo.

[Guest Banky]

This company will be dead and buried in a year.

 

Fuck whoever decided to bring Owen Hart's name into furthering the feud.

 

Finally, it is downright dispicable of Piper and Russo to incorporate the tragedies of past wrestlers to further their own products.

 

Its karma - this company will sink....fast.

 

I'd take Vinne Mac over Russo anyday. McMahon atleast has an once of credibility and business saavy.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Tonight's show was complete and utter garbage.

 

It felt like Russo booking. If it wasn't Russo booking, they were intentionally channeling Russo booking so it was there in spirit. And there's a reason why Russo booking has the reputation it does.

 

IT'S NO GOOD.

 

Angles are angles, but don't sacrifice your show over them. Do not screw around on purpose to make things more real as it gives you no upward-mobility. Anyone who watched tonight's show for the first time without reading this site or the others that pay attention to it would be confused out of their minds as to why all these offensive promos were going down.

 

Plus the workers themselves didn't seem to have their hearts into it. I used to like Piper's matches but they guy has run out of gas.

 

This show is the worst one I've seen yet, actually beating week 5 (I never saw the Dupp Cup weeks.)

 

I don't like Russo on my TV screen so having him going out there as a promo man only is an okay idea, but I hate Russo's booking as an actual wrestling fan so don't subject me to shoot promos and bad matches.

 

If we put anything on a pole, I stop watching entirely.

[Guest RedJed]

The promos in the ring and angles relating to them were meant to be more Russo-ish, or sports entertainment-like. That was intentional. How are you going to do a fucking SE v. Old-school storyline without that? They're going to have to go down this route somewhat to get over the SE side of things......its done so people hate it, boo it, blah blah blah. To take a line from WWE......."Get It?" You're right, Russo booking is no good, thats why they are the heels here. And thats why ultimately, the blowoff will be this SE crap will be cleared off the table in favor of the old-school, just give it time and let the angle play out more than two weeks time, damn. They're trying to make a point here in the big scheme of things, which basically is the same thing you are saying.

 

Until I see DQ finishes and screwjobs in every match, I won't be convinced it's Russo booking this company quite yet. There were two matches that I really enjoyed tonight, and two that I could have done without in the opener and main event.

 

I totally missed where the workers seemed lethargic tonight, as most of the matches had solid intensity. Piper never even wrestled either, so what was your point? Are you sure you even watched this show?

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

The promos in the ring and angles relating to them were meant to be more Russo-ish, or sports entertainment-like. That was intentional.

You can use plenty of S-E staples without having to use all the hallmarks of Russo. Overboard sexuality (although I guess they already have the ladies dancing in the cages, perhaps if they could hire some of them to have a "hardcore" fight backstage that's actually not all that hardcore, and throw a gross spot into it), having a wrestler beat up a plant "audience participant," and fights over non-wrestling family members ("Stop dating my sister!") etc is all S-E.

 

However, you can have all this S-E without quasi-shoot promos, disgusting remarks (the Owen thing) and other things that do nothing but remind me of WCW 2000. You can also do it without having Russo on screen every 10 seconds, but I won't blame them for that yet because he needs to get a posse going still.

 

You're right, Russo booking is no good, thats why they are the heels here.

 

So someone who's never watched TNA buys their first show and gets this shit. How does this make them want to buy another? How about the people who didn't watch half this stuff going on in WCW to understand why they're imitating it here?

 

They're trying to make a point here in the big scheme of things, which basically is the same thing you are saying.

 

But they're intentionally making the show suffer, a show people pay good money for.

 

I don't mind an Invasion-style storyline where the heels take over and do everything their way and screw the faces etc (think the few times the nWo took over or something here), but don't do this kind of stuff when people are paying money.

 

Piper never even wrestled either, so what was your point? Are you sure you even watched this show?

 

I didn't say he wrestled, I mean he's lost it. I've seen the guy do everything in the past few years, including at one point announce a massively multiplayer pro wrestling video game that nobody ever heard from again.

 

In other words, I'm saying me thinks he's a bit wacky compared to a decade ago.

[Guest J*ingus]

I'll say one thing about this company: the left hand doesn't seem to know what the right hand is doing. Plenty of the boys in the back are being kept in the dark about this stuff. Almost nobody knew Piper was going to be there. He showed up immediately before his segment, did an almost completely shoot promo (Piper HATES Russo, and no one knew Owen would be brought up), and left. Russo sure as hell didn't know what Piper was going to say, nobody did, they were trying to take the microphone away from him and the Harrises were trying to calm Russo down for real the entire time.

 

Russo is almost certainly writing some of the show, but isn't the head guy, the Jarretts and various others counterbalance him.

 

Red was taken out of the match because he's injured.

[Guest RedJed]

Well now with the news that the Piper thing was a shoot, was there really alot of the old quasi-shoot WCW 2000 type stuff on the show when you think about it? Hell, there might have been more WCW 2000 talk and flashbacking last week compared to this week.

 

Even for the people who watched the show for the first time and saw this, I don't really think it would anger or piss them off that much, as the show generally had a feeling where you didn't know what was going to happen next, which is going to grab a casual viewer, I think. Plus it sure didn't really kill the crowd from what I heard.

 

Like I said, when you eliminate the Piper segment, there wasn't that much of your Russo type booking, IMO. The opener, x division, and the stuff with AMW and the NC didn't have any wild jabs in there (like a million run-ins or wild swerves or etc) at all other than Harris throwing a stink fit after the Russo stuff with Athena.

[Guest eirejmcmahon]

Like I said, when you eliminate the Piper segment

...you're left with the worst week in terms of wrestling since they came back after going dark.

[Guest RobJohnstone]

You know I have been a fan of russo's in the past. I even liked his stuff during the wcw stint. I tpaes tonight's show and just watch it, man, it is way over the top. No one is interested in the shit they are putting out. I watch nwa to see styles, low-ki, etc... Now it seems as though they are getting half ass indy wrestlers (red is not a wrestler boys and girls) and old has been's with shitty storylines. Uggghh. It will be a while before I spend another $10 on this shit.

 

--Rob

[Guest Slapnuts00]

Exactly, how the fuck can you justify making your shows intentionally bad when your whole point is to get people to spend money on them? And you didn't notice any Russo booking? How about the crash TV style of a backstage segment every other segment? TNA has never done that. How about the 3 or 4 SHOCKING swerves at the end of the show? How about the horrible Athena angle where she was berated and beaten up in tasteless fashion? Ands most importantly did you notice how WRESTLING TOOK A BACK SEAT!? That's the whole reason people like me have ordered and enjoyed TNA, wrestling is the most important thing with other stuff serving as background. The wrestling was few and far between tonight and the main event was atrocious and reeked of something being thrown together for WCW Thunder in 2000.

[Guest RedJed]

Like I said, when you eliminate the Piper segment

...you're left with the worst week in terms of wrestling since they came back after going dark.

Did you even watch it? I know many weeks you come on here and bash the product when you didn't even view the show.

 

There was two matches that were solid in Storm/Slash and the X division match. Not MOTY contenders or anything, but still solid nontheless.

[Guest dreamer420]

Exactly, how the fuck can you justify making your shows intentionally bad when your whole point is to get people to spend money on them? And you didn't notice any Russo booking? How about the crash TV style of a backstage segment every other segment? TNA has never done that. How about the 3 or 4 SHOCKING swerves at the end of the show? How about the horrible Athena angle where she was berated and beaten up in tasteless fashion? Ands most importantly did you notice how WRESTLING TOOK A BACK SEAT!? That's the whole reason people like me have ordered and enjoyed TNA, wrestling is the most important thing with other stuff serving as background. The wrestling was few and far between tonight and the main event was atrocious and reeked of something being thrown together for WCW Thunder in 2000.

To make the Russo angle work that has to be done though. TNA has to give the fans Russo's style of booking, which they won't like and will therefore cheer the people he is not aligned with.

[Guest eirejmcmahon]

Did you even watch it? I know many weeks you come on here and bash the product when you didn't even view the show.

I've missed one (1) show, pay attention.

[Guest The Man in Blak]

I boldly predict that every single Russo detractor who didn't even watch the show will run in here and agree with you.

As funny (and true) as that may be, here's a simple case study for you:

 

========================================================

 

Case 1: Man in Blak, long-time wrestling fan who has never ordered TNA, but has always considered doing it.

 

- Subject is a confirmed "smart" fan, who recognizes that wrestling is fake, but still enjoys "marking out" whenever the product is excellent.

- Subject enjoys the idea of the X Division, which focuses more on the in-ring performances, but has been a little sketchy of the rest of the TNA roster.

 

Thus, we could consider our subject to be a typical, sensible wrestling fan.

 

Experiment: NWA-TNA brings in Vince Russo, infamous wielder of the "worked-shoot" and former WCW World Champion, as a performer (or even as a writer). Vince Russo, who is notorious for not giving a shit about in-ring competition, for not respecting title lineages, and insists on declaring every damn segment he's involved in as a "shoot", continually reminding the subject that wrestling is fake and circumventing his ability to mark out. Immediate effects in the card include a shoot interview declaring that Vince Russo killed Owen Hart and the Harrises being involved in the main event.

 

Result: Subject now has absolutely no interest in ordering TNA and, likely, never will as long as Russo is involved (which seems like a long-term deal).

 

========================================================

 

And believe me, for every one fan that doesn't mind the shoot angles, there are probably six fans like this "Man in Blak" that have no reason to prove their skepticism wrong.

 

We can laugh it off and file all of the bitching under "Russo hate"...but I don't think it's ridiculous to claim that Piper shooting on Russo will by the moment that makes or breaks TNA.

 

And when Russo isn't going to be able to follow up the previous week's shoot with a more controversial shoot...it's likely going to break NWA:TNA.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I'm not saying any of that is wrong.

 

I was just pointing out that a lot of new people seem to pop into this folder whenever Vince Russo is mentioned.