Passing The Torch

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

There comes a time when the older wrestlers put over the younger talent (at least in theory) to give the younger stars credability. So a couple questions, why do some wrestlers like Hogan,Piper,Savage STILL refuse to pass the tourh and who should the pass the torch to, or should they pass the torch

[Guest godthedog]

i don't think hogan even has the torch anymore.  he probably had it till about 96 or 97.  never passed it to anybody, but (if we want to extend the metaphor) it just ran out of fuel at about the same time austin's torch lit (which, by the way, no one passed to him; he pretty much did it himself).  austin still has the torch today.  i think maybe the no way out match with HHH was supposed to be the beginning of a passing-of-the-torch (with possibilities of ending the two-man power trip with HHH coming into his own, turning face & beating austin for good or whatever), but the momentum got fucked up with HHH's torn quad & now austin still has it.  one day, when he's ready to begin the retirement process, austin will pass the torch himself (probably to rock or HHH).

[Guest red_file]

One could say that Shawn Michaels passed the torch to Austin.  Michaels' last match, in a way, cemented Austin's future.

 

Of course, a question that always springs to my mind is: when should a wrestler "pass the torch?"  We're always hearing about how wresters have to put other guys over and help build new talent.  Granted, long term goals are part of any business; but when do the new stars get to actually be stars?  How long is a main eventer allowed to stay at the top before they are required to put the new talent over?  Perhaps a few years.  Several.  Not very long it seems.

[Guest InigoMontoya]

I think that Bret Hart would have passed the torch to Austin if anyone. Maybe he just kind of lit Austin's with his.

[Guest The Vanilla Midget]

it depends on the situation, for instance if they are doing well (mid 80s), there is no need to pass the torch, and one guy can go with it for a while.  however in the 90's during a downturn, the wwf had to create the torch for bret who lost it to HBK, and austin took it from him.  austin will probably hold the torch for a while longer (trips was on track to get it last summer), before dropping it to trips or possibly jericho.  rock is out due to questions about how long he will stay in wrestling, and similar questions with angle and the olympics.  however if it does go to trips or jericho, it will again have to be passed fairly soon, as both guys are in their primes now.  who they pass it to i have no idea, though edge/rvd spring to mind.  i hope they bypass trips and go straight to jericho, as hhh's frame will probably shorten his career, and at this stage if they can properly establish jericho, he would be the better long-term prospect.

[Guest Tony149]

I think HHH is younger than Jericho. If he is, then HHH gets the torched from SCSA. Although I don't know how you get the torch.

[Guest The Vanilla Midget]

hehe, figure of speech, but i think while hhh is younger, jericho might have better longevity due to trips' injury and apparent substance abuse problems.

[Guest The Hitman Returns]

I think at one time they tried to pass the torch.

 

Hogan jobbed for Goldberg on Nitro.

 

Piper jobbed for Bret Hart at Wrestlemania.

 

Savage...you guys got me on that one.

 

I don't know that Michaels would have jobbed for Austin if his back had'nt been messed up.

 

Don't forget Hart putting Austin over at Wrestlemania 13.

[Guest The Vanilla Midget]

that's different though, austin wasnt the biggest star in the company, he was probably #3 behind hart and HBK, so the torch didnt really pass.  only when HBK (#1) jobbed to SCSA (#2) did the 'torch' truly pass.

[Guest The Hitman Returns]

Yes...You are absolutly right Vanilla Midget.  Sorry for my error.

 

Please forgive me, it would mean so much to me.

[Guest Tony149]

Didn't HBK job to SCSA because the Undertaker threaten to beat him up if he didn't?

[Guest converge241]

I think the problem with some of the big "torch-passing" moments of the past have been retroactively screwed up.

Hogan does clean job to warrior at WM6

Warrior is just too damn bizarre and doesnt catch on, they go back to Hogan

Shawn jobs to Austin at WM14

I think this one got hurt a little casue Shawn had to retire. To mee it just doesnt feel the same if one wrestler is in the very last match. Some people might feel the opposite and I totally understand it, I just think they should be in the twilight not at the very end.

Hogan jobs to goldberg on Nitro

Goldberg's character gets all screwed upafter that.

 

the best examples i can think of that really held up were:

Bret vs Austin @ WM13. Austin didnt win clean (and never did get that big clean pinfall win if i reme,ber correctly) but thet match made Austin. Bret was still around for a while longer to keep fueding with Austin and helped lead to the Mr.McMahon character.

Flair vs. Sting @ the 1st Clash Of The Champions. Again a case where Sting didnt win, but the draw made him a superstar on that day. there were tons of booking problems later that kept him from reaching like a Hogan mainstream status, but i dont think he ever lost any of his ground.

[Guest mastermind]

Interesting stuff here on what some think. Here is what I think.

 

There are different levels to look at this.

 

The World Champion is suppose to be THE draw of the company whether face or heel. I will take the world champion approach. This is the wrestling world's view of passing of the torch.

 

Hogan did pass the torch to Warrior in 1990. Ric Flair also passed the torch to Sting in 1990. This was done through the championship belt. The folklore is that Andre passed the torch to Hogan, but in actuality it was Bob Backlund through the transition of Iron Shiek. Hogan in 1988 passed the belt (torch bearer) to Randy Savage. He was given back the torch in 1989. Hogan then passed it to Warrior in 1990.

 

This is where things are tricky as Sting was passed the torch as well in NWA/WCW. However, there is a major theme many don't recognize. The FANS have to accept the torch bearer as the true torch bearer. Flair and Hogan still were seen as the torch bearers and that's why Sting and Warrior failed.

 

The torch is given back to Flair and Hogan through transition. Then in 1991/92 Flair and Hogan end up in one league cementing they were still the torch bearer. It happened the wwf tried to pass the torch to Sid. Again fans just didn't buy Sid as the next Hogan and immediately was taken off plans for the title. Ric Flair nor Savage were given the torch because many saw them as the torch bearers anyways since Hogan was "retiring". Piper didn't pass the torch to Hart because he never had it to begin with.

 

When Flair jobbed to Hart the torch WAS passed. However, Vince balked and gave the torch back to Hogan. Anyways, you know the damn history and what I'm getting at. That is the world of wrestling's torch.

 

However, the more important torch is the acceptance of the fans of who the torch bearer was. Sadly, the masses thought Hogan went into his twilight years in the early 90's wwf and retired with the torch creating a great darkness upon the land. WWF dark ages begin because Hogan which was the light is gone. Damn, am I writing a novel *lol*.

 

I'm not counting wcw because honestly the orgnanization never truly had the torch for anything in terms of being the true torch. Skip the horrible Diesel-power Era*Again, wrestling wise the torch was passed, but fans didn't feel it was truly passed*.

 

Hogan in 1996 who left the once deep, but suddenly now dark wwf sparks the light with the torch by using the torch to turn heel. Boom! comes once again as the torch is shining bright in wcw. Hogan's light is slowly turning into ashes as Hogan let it shine, but Austin took the torch. Yes, Austin took the torch. I go back now and say that wcw saw their torch shine was going to Austin, so they went the "wrestling world" route and passed the torch to Goldberg which did work for awhile.

 

Goldberg gets the torch taken away from him and it's transitioned back to Hogan. Hogan was no longer the torch bearer amongst fans and Austin took the reigns for good. End of story. In terms of wwf title torch passing, Bret was the guy who had the torch and passed it to Shawn in 1996, but still didn't pass it because he ripped Shawn outside the ring. So the torch didn't really pass to Shawn. He didn't really pass the torch to Austin either at Mania as he won his match. Bret didn't even pass the torch to Shawn in Montreal in storyline and real life.

 

Now Austin is burning bright with the torch, but Rock is smelling what it's cooking. It's coming quite the fight for the torch as Austin and Rock are battling in polls. However, the torch in the wrestling world was passed to Triple H. Remember what I said above about fans have to accept the wrestling's title(the torch) of Triple H? Rock without Austin in the picture had the torch of the masses, but not the torch of the wwf title. It could have all come together at WM 16, but didn't.

 

Now we are in a mess of Hogan/Austin/Rock in the wwf. Hogan not actually passing the torch to begin with. Austin who cramped the torch from Hogan's grasp. Rock who was close to stealing it from Austin in late 1999-2000 and guess what by the end of WrestleMania Triple H will once again somehow be apart of this line that has become thin.

 

*Just to say I over analyzed this for kicks* However, it's not too far from the real scenario.

[Guest Some Guy]

Who passed the torch to Hogan?

Who passed the Torch to Bret Hart?

Who passed the torch to Savage?

Who passed the torch to Rock?

 

The answer is nobody did.  They did it themselves, all this passing the torch stuff is kind of silly when the 4 guys I have just listed are amongst the biggest in wrestling history.  

Aside from Shawn (whether he did voluntarily or not doesn't relly matter) who else has lost the world title and just disappeared to let the new champ shine alone?

[Guest RetroRob215]

I don't see the point in this whole "Passing the Torch" thing.  If passing the torch means the #1 man jobbing to the #2 man, then what happened in 2000.  Who was #1 HHH or Rock?   Does it really matter since they traded jobs back and forth?   Does passing the torch only apply to someone who is past their time?

[Guest mastermind]

Hogan, Hart, Savage, Rock did it themselves? I thought Vince had something to do with it?(lol)

 

Seriously, someone was before all those aforementioned people so someone had to lay the groundwork for them to display their talents. NO ONE does it by themselves. Just saying. I don't think any of these men were in the ring wrestling thin air.

 

Take Bret Hart and Vince Mcmahon away from Austin's wwf run and I don't think we would be putting Austin up on any list for carrying a torch. So someone put him in the position. If Hogan had stayed in the wwf would he be the top dog. Just ask wcw Stunning Steve Austin.

 

Take away Andre, Piper, Heenan, Bundy, Orndorff, and Savage from Hogan's run and Hogan would be Big Show. Just saying. I was kind of tongue in cheek in my other post here. However, on a serious note it takes a lot of things to actually make it where Austin, Rock, Hogan, and Flair are in terms of historical importance. Rock at this point is debatable since he didn't do what Austin, Hogan, or Flair did. He did however bring us into the late 90's/early millennium "bling bling playa playa" era. No one has really been able to pass the actual torch since politics come into play.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

THe answer to who passed the torch to Hogan, Hart, Savage and Rock and everyone else is easy:

 

Vince did.

[Guest Human Fly]

Good point bps, I think a lot depends on Vince (obviously). But, Stone Cold had to get super over on his own before Vince gave it to him. Does anyone know if Austin 3:16 was really made up right there on the KOTR stage or was it a line worked out beforehand?

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I don't know about the line...but I know that the whole"stone Clod" gimmick was Austin's idea.  Which deserves alot of credit.  Hell...any time a guy starts off as "The Ringmaster" and ends up on top...it deserves some credit.

[Guest mastermind]

Actually, about Austin I don't think it was really about Austin getting over first. He was slated to win the world title in 1997 in February, but got injured. I think Vince actually let Austin's popularity build through storylines and waited for the right time to crown him when the wwf would actually have a large audience which was WM 14. Remember most people were watching the nWo and Vince knew Austin was the guy to build the company on(which explains why he got the Tyson angle).