Guest AndrewTS Report post Posted December 8, 2002 I was playing SD! Shut Your Mouth, and the KOTR came up, with surprising two former winners, Kurt and Edge, duking it out in the finals. Edge won. Just like in 2001. Made me think of the promo Edge cut on Billy Gunn. Did he live up to his promise, or did he "Billy Gunn" his KOTR win? Okay, that's been nearly two years ago. Since then, he's had a few IC title reigns, several midcard programs. Of course, we know about the one with Angle. Although...he doesn't seem as prominent on fans minds as Angle was when he won. Sure as hell not as much as Brock, who was then shoved into the main event of Summerslam vs. Rock. So, did he? If you don't think he did, you have to admit that the KOTR win didn't do anything directly for his career. It helped make Austin a star, maybe moreso the aftermath, but still... It really helped Owen Hart. Bret didn't need the win but it helped greatly. It did nothing for HHH since he didn't get a major push until years later. Shamrock, Mabel (ugh), and Gunn of course didn't really make anything of their wins, their pushes afterward bombing hugely. Certainly Edge's isn't quite the disaster Gunn's was--of course, he didn't get made an ass off by Rock and then having his face shoved in one--but he didn't really do anything to warrant the push. So, thoughts? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ravenbomb Report post Posted December 8, 2002 nah, only Billy Gunn can Billy Gunn a KOTR win. Edge just Edged it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest godthedog Report post Posted December 8, 2002 huh? this idea is totally alien to me. since king of the ring edge has steadily gotten more over & gotten a hell of a lot better, even holding his own in some MOTYC's. how is that comparable in any way to billy gunn? this edge hate is really getting out of control. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest AndrewTS Report post Posted December 8, 2002 huh? this idea is totally alien to me. since king of the ring edge has steadily gotten more over & gotten a hell of a lot better, even holding his own in some MOTYC's. how is that comparable in any way to billy gunn? this edge hate is really getting out of control. Where's the Edge hate? I mentioned nothing about how he wrestled, I just want to ascertain how over and credible he is, and if it gave him a big boost as far as his "ranking" if you will. Don't look for something that isn't there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest teke184 Report post Posted December 8, 2002 Edge was a stuck in the tag ranks with nowhere left to go when he won KOTR. He's now a somewhat established singles star and has potential for the future. I'd just put him over the top and let him have a decent reign before pairing him off with trash like Regal and Albert in an attempt to give them "the rub". Billy Gunn was in the same situation coming in but never did anything with it. He was back in the Outlaws before you could blink despite feuding with The Rock. His gimmick didn't help though, as no one could take him seriously when he was fixated on asses and had his face shoved in Bertha Faye's ample rump at Summerslam 1999. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CanadianChick Report post Posted December 8, 2002 I don't think so. Edge's career has been better after KOTR 2001 than before. Billy gunn just won the tournament, and did nothing after it. KOTR was his singles highpoint; it was Edge's starting point. And that my friends is the difference. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest bob_barron Report post Posted December 8, 2002 How did Edge Billy Gunn the title??? That's the most ridicolous thing ever. Edge is way over with the fans and is right on the cusp of being a main eventer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest godthedog Report post Posted December 8, 2002 huh? this idea is totally alien to me. since king of the ring edge has steadily gotten more over & gotten a hell of a lot better, even holding his own in some MOTYC's. how is that comparable in any way to billy gunn? this edge hate is really getting out of control. Where's the Edge hate? I mentioned nothing about how he wrestled, I just want to ascertain how over and credible he is, and if it gave him a big boost as far as his "ranking" if you will. Don't look for something that isn't there. i never claimed that there was any edge hate in the thread, it's just that nobody would even think to start this thread if it wasn't such the dominant opinion of the board that edge sucks & doesn't deserve his push. he's in the top tier of the midcard, just about one big feud away from being a main event player. if all the edge hate wasn't on the board, it never would've occurred to anybody that he might have billy gunn'ed his KOR title. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest AndrewTS Report post Posted December 8, 2002 huh? this idea is totally alien to me. since king of the ring edge has steadily gotten more over & gotten a hell of a lot better, even holding his own in some MOTYC's. how is that comparable in any way to billy gunn? this edge hate is really getting out of control. Where's the Edge hate? I mentioned nothing about how he wrestled, I just want to ascertain how over and credible he is, and if it gave him a big boost as far as his "ranking" if you will. Don't look for something that isn't there. i never claimed that there was any edge hate in the thread, it's just that nobody would even think to start this thread if it wasn't such the dominant opinion of the board that edge sucks & doesn't deserve his push. he's in the top tier of the midcard, just about one big feud away from being a main event player. if all the edge hate wasn't on the board, it never would've occurred to anybody that he might have billy gunn'ed his KOR title. However, in comparison to the KOTRs before and after him, he doesn't look that impressive. It's almost like they needed a filler one at the time, since Kurt already won, Jericho either "didn't need it"--or make your own theory, and Rhyno was too new. Most felt either Jericho, Angle, Rhyno or Edge would win, with Edge less likely than J or A. Came somewhat as a surprise. He's also lacked direction for quite a while--or rather, didn't follow through, since he said several times he was going to go for "the" title. When he came back from the injury, he and other SD wrestlers chased off Jericho and the Un-Americans. Then--nothing, really. His title shot happened finally against Brock on a SD!, and then he was back to square one, having pointless albeit good matches with Eddy, Angle, and recently teaming up with Rey. Now, a program with Albert. Pffft... It just seemed that his momentum totally fizzled out, and the bookers have no clue what to do with him. The Angle/Brock WM match is practically set in stone, and they pretty much blew their chance to have him in a placeholder title reign. If Brock wasn't a face already he could've had a program with him, but that didn't happen. And if Show retains, even if they give him the big push then, that's mean his big title win would come over--BIG SHOW?! Who gives a fuck, who hasn't beaten Big Show besides Brock? And if they don't do it then, he'll be doing nothing until at least after Wrestlemania, and when KotR comes around again, likely they'll make the prize a Summerslam title shot, so if he became champ sometime before Summerslam, chances are they'd have to have a title match Vince would be afraid won't draw, unless they give KOTR to someone who doesn't need it just to give them a title shot. So where's the main event elevation? And if EDGE is going nowhere, there are plans for Angle, but the rest of the 6--Benoit and the Guerreros--sure as hell aren't going anywhere. Unless of course, Brock/Angle's big program is killed, but I doubt that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest bob_barron Report post Posted December 8, 2002 Jericho was never entered in the KOTR2001 tournament. Edge faced Brock at Rebellion not Smackdown!. His momentum has only stalled just recently because of the loss of the tag belts, Rey Rey and an Albert feud but give him some time before you accuse him of Billy Gunnery. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest AndrewTS Report post Posted December 8, 2002 Jericho was never entered in the KOTR2001 tournament. Edge faced Brock at Rebellion not Smackdown!. His momentum has only stalled just recently because of the loss of the tag belts, Rey Rey and an Albert feud but give him some time before you accuse him of Billy Gunnery. His momentum stalled, my whole point. And I guess I was thinking of Jericho THIS year, my bad. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CanadianChick Report post Posted December 8, 2002 So what? Just because his momentum has stall a biit does not mean he has billy gunned the crown. As I said, Edge is better off after the KOTR 01 and used it as a starting point while Billy is worse off after KOTR 99 and it was the highpoint of his single's career. And what does his recent semi-stall have to do with a ppv event a year and a half ago? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest cabbageboy Report post Posted December 8, 2002 Edge hasn't really "Gunned" the KOTR but there is just something about the guy that doesn't quite click. I mean he wrestles good matches on a regular basis, gets a good pop, but something about the guy doesn't work. I think it's due to him being a generic "blond pretty boy" type with no real discernable moveset or gimmick. This Albert thing will make Edge look BAD, by the way. Edge has gotten over due to facing superb talent like Angle and Eddie....and even then I'd argue those guys came out more over than Edge did (even some marks can tell when one guy is essentially carrying the other). Now they are putting Edge with a guy that will be almost a surefire lousy match that will rank up with the anti-classics he had with Regal. This is a dreadful idea and is bound to fail. I mean, Edge will get nothing out of beating Albert, and could be seriously screwed if they job him out to a bum like Albert. Edge isn't remotely established enough that it will get Albert over either. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest bob_barron Report post Posted December 8, 2002 Yea- it'll be interesting to see how Albert does against him. Albert and Kane had some decent matches Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest AndrewTS Report post Posted December 8, 2002 Because usually, the winner of the KotR is someone being groomed for main eventerdom. Not 3 years later, not some where in the far future, but fairly soon. It really helped out Bret Hart and Stone Cold. Other times it's to legitimize a wrestler, like with Owen Hart or, they'd hoped, Billy Gunn. Angle and Ken Shamrock didn't really need their wins, both were hugely over. However, the Corporation stint killed Shammie's career, while Angle still has yet to be viewed as a "true" main eventer in most fans eyes, although he still is extremely over. The point I'm asking, if it takes a long, long time for a KotR winner to really make the step up, what was the point of winning the KotR in the first place? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest bps "The Truth" 21 Report post Posted December 8, 2002 Since his KOTR reign only included everything up to KOTR 2002... I would have said yes if the Angle feud didn't save him. What did he do after KOTR? Horrible feud with Regal, Blah feud with Christian... Until Angle came along almost a year later Edge was no closer to appearing as a viable guy for elavation than before. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest AndrewTS Report post Posted December 8, 2002 Since his KOTR reign only included everything up to KOTR 2002... I would have said yes if the Angle feud didn't save him. What did he do after KOTR? Horrible feud with Regal, Blah feud with Christian... Until Angle came along almost a year later Edge was no closer to appearing as a viable guy for elavation than before. Precisely my point. If they don't make something of it in less than a year, it would have been better to use that KotR for someone that will be pushed. Of course, if they stupidly push someone who has never gotten over anyway, and waste a KotR on him (Gunn), then..well, that's WWE. If Albert is the 2003 KotR, there is no hope at all for this company ever again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest teke184 Report post Posted December 8, 2002 Because usually, the winner of the KotR is someone being groomed for main eventerdom. Not 3 years later, not some where in the far future, but fairly soon. It really helped out Bret Hart and Stone Cold. Other times it's to legitimize a wrestler, like with Owen Hart or, they'd hoped, Billy Gunn. Angle and Ken Shamrock didn't really need their wins, both were hugely over. However, the Corporation stint killed Shammie's career, while Angle still has yet to be viewed as a "true" main eventer in most fans eyes, although he still is extremely over. The point I'm asking, if it takes a long, long time for a KotR winner to really make the step up, what was the point of winning the KotR in the first place? Know how long it took to make Triple H a main eventer after he won the KOTR? Two and a half YEARS and he didn't have NEARLY the momentum Edge did for the vast majority of that time. Trips was painfully un-over before and right after he won the award, got some heat by facing Mankind, couldn't do squat until he feuded with Rock and got hurt during the match that should have made him a superstar. After that, he had little momentum throughout 1999 despite getting a big push and didn't really start to get over until Foley gave him a HUGE present by jobbing cleanly in three straight PPVs, with the final one retiring him for good. Compare Edge to Trips in that regard and Edge looks more like Austin, who caught fire about 4 months after winning the KOTR and never really looked back. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest AndrewTS Report post Posted December 8, 2002 Triple H didn't deserve to win the KotR then, so for all intents and purposes, it was wasted. Although not really, because he was originally planned to win the KotR that they instead had Steve Austin win--that was definitely not a waste. KotR didn't help HHH's career...he lingered around in DX v. 2 until he was given his big shot, and retroactively "earned" it, until he turned into the cancer we know him as today. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Luke Cage Report post Posted December 9, 2002 Edge's KOTR reign wasn't Billy Gunned. It was WWF'ed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest dreamer420 Report post Posted December 9, 2002 I wouldn't say he Billy Gunned the KOTR. Edge broke up with Christian, and elevated to the next level, winning the IC title and worked some main event level programs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest bob_barron Report post Posted December 9, 2002 Well I doubt Edge will be hosting KOTR2003 from the World Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest dreamer420 Report post Posted December 9, 2002 Well I doubt Edge will be hosting KOTR2003 from the World Could happen. I think the fans are all ready getting tired of cheering the guy and if the WWE fucks up a heel push he could be stuck at the world "getting his picture taken with ugly kids" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest bob_barron Report post Posted December 9, 2002 It's not gonna happen though because unlike Billy Gunn, who they pretty much had to mercy kill by reforming the NAO, Edge is doing pretty well on his own Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest NYCTA Bus No. PA1767 Report post Posted December 9, 2002 Edge actually would've "Billy Gunned" the KOTR win had they stopped pushing him like they did Gunn. With Gunn, he won, got into a feud with the Rock, joobed to the Rock and got his face shoved into the ass of a fat woman. After that he bounced around and around being "random WWF heel #3" for awhile before joining the Outlaws. Gunn's main problem is that he had DX stench all over him and couldn't draw heel heat, just tweener heat and most of that from women. Gunn was over during his initial push, but he wasn't the heel the WWE wanted. Edge however was pushed until the fans had no choice but to like him. He was psuhed over everybody he was put up against and made everyone he feuded with look ridiculous or like a "dork." He was protected in ways Gunn never was so obviously the guy was going to get over eventually. Yet, he still reminds me of a midcard guy that just hangs with the Main Eventer's every now and then. But I guess that's better than Aaaaaahhhhhhhllllllll-bert. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest bob_barron Report post Posted December 9, 2002 How did he make Regal look ridiculous or like a "dork"? He lost that feud. How did he make Eddy look ridiculous or like a "dork"? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest AndrewTS Report post Posted December 9, 2002 Well, one thing that hit me when you described Gunn--usually major pushes in WWE are always heel ones first--later face turns. That's one aspect that totally screwed Jericho over without any additional forces. He worked well as an underdog face. He's a perfect MIDCARD heel, but main event heel? No...and other aspects like lack of impact in his signature moves, politics, and so forth also hurt him. Edge may be screwed in a similar fashion. The Edge we know now developed from a goofy tag team wrestler--turned midcard singles wrestler. I can't honestly see Edge as a credible heel. He'd have to go back to something more like his darker, initial persona for that. He doesn't look, sound, or act at all intimidating now, so any run with the title would need to be a face run. I guess he's going nowhere--when you take a look at it in that light, Benoit has a better chance right now than Edge does. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CanadianChick Report post Posted December 9, 2002 Because he said that regarding Christian, so he *must* have made everybody look like a dork. Please, stop grasping for straws and give concrete proof. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Downhome Report post Posted December 9, 2002 At least when Mable won it, he main evented a major PPV, doesn't that say enough? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest bps "The Truth" 21 Report post Posted December 9, 2002 That's why we don't call it "Mabeling" the KOTR crown. Brock was on his way there before he snapped out of it long enough to have a watchable match with Taker, and then get over. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
