Tekken 4

[Guest Respect The 'Taker]

Finally, after a long and hard wait, Namco have released the much anticipated Tekken 4.

 

As soon as i bought my Playstation 2, i made sure Tekken Tag Tournament was coming with it. After playing TTT for hours on end, the news that Tekken 4 had been released excited me beyond words, as it marked the first full-scale Tekken game for the PS2.

 

So what are your opinions on the game, Illusion-ites?

 

Illusion - Can't fight

[Guest Cavi]

The game has been out in the US for a while now. I got it the week it was released. While I'm not exactly proficient in all things Tekken, I will say that it's quite fun. Excellent presentation, as is the usual from the series. The characters are actually cool and interesting, unlike the ones found in the pioneer franchise of 3D fighting - Kazuya > The whole VF cast.

[Guest Respect The 'Taker]

Yeah i just found an article which showed the release date of Tekken in the US which made THIS thread look out-dated and worthless..

 

Eh..

 

Illusion - 17 and ALREADY out of touch

[Guest Renegade]

Its good, not great.

 

Character wise:

 

Tekken > VF

 

Gameplay wise:

 

Tekken < VF

[Guest EricMM]

No way Josè. Tekken is far more intuitive and playable than the ROTE LEARNING Virtua Fighter. Its all well and good to have depth, Tekken provides it in Spades. But Virtua Fighter is unplayable if you're not both Noobs or experts.

[Guest The Man in Blak]

Er, no and no.

 

Virtua Fighter 4's got possibilities for button-mashing goodness, blocking technique (to counter said goodness), and countering/evasion to even throw another element into the fray. The curve's realistic - n00bs can play n00bs well, learned peeps can usually hold an slight advantage over n00bs, and masters can fucking trounce everybody.

 

In Tekken 4, I can take Kasuya and beat the game without losing a round. The button-mashing mechanics - which seemed like they could potentially die out after Tekken Tag - are back with a vengeance and they leave you little or no point to learn any of the advanced techniques. The depth is there, but it's utterly useless in single or multi-player.

 

And this isn't coming from a VF fanboy, believe me. For years, I preferred Tekken (or, more accurately, Soul Edge) to Virtua Fighter...but VF4 and, later on, Tekken 4, were enough to switch me for the time being. Namco dropped the ball this year, IMO.

[Guest KoR Fungus]

In Tekken 4, I can take Kasuya and beat the game without losing a round. The button-mashing mechanics - which seemed like they could potentially die out after Tekken Tag - are back with a vengeance and they leave you little or no point to learn any of the advanced techniques. The depth is there, but it's utterly useless in single or multi-player.

Bah, that's completely wrong. I'll give you the fact that it's easy to beat the game in single player, but I'll also say that it doesn't make a bit of difference. Fighters are *multiplayer games*. Yeah, the lack of kumite/conquest is a little irritating, and I wish Namco had put a little more time into the port, but the reality is that single player is a very, very insignificant part of the fighting experience.

 

As for depth not being relevant to the multiplayer play, as a relative Tekken master I have to very much disagree with you. I think that a lot of people's problem with Tekken comes from the fact that button mashing scrubs can beat mid-level scrubs that actually tried to learn the game. Tekken has a pretty steep learning curve, I'll give you that. However, button mashing scrubs cannot beat actual good players. I haven't lost to a button masher or ten string abusing scrub in ages, and have enjoyed hundreds of great high level matches against people that actually know what they're doing. I've had this argument many times before, and unfortunately I can't convince people of Tekken's relevant depth without actually coming over to their house/arcade and playing them, but I will always maintain that the people that think Tekken doesn't have relevant depth are the people that have never seen it played properly.

 

That's not to take anything away from VF4. VF4's gameplay is rock solid also, and it is undeniably deeper than Tekken 4. My problem with VF4 is that there's no arcade community at all, so that depth is lost on me. I played kumite for ages and got about as good as I can get without seeing other people play, and yet I'm still a total scrub and all that practice doesn't actually translate into wins in multiplayer. I can't ever see myself having more fun with VF than with Tekken until VF machines start showing up at US arcades.

[Guest Renegade]

My problem with VF4 is that there's no arcade community at all.

The problem is Sega doesnt seem to give a shot about the characters. You see over the time of fighting games characters having a plot and starting to develop through the cource of the series, where in VF the characters are so bland people won't go for it.

[Guest The Man in Blak]

Actually, I said that as an illustration of the downright horrible character balance as opposed to the ease of single player mode. You're right - fighters are meant for multiplayer fun, but when you're fighting one of the big Mishima boys (Kasuya, Jin) or Hwaorang or Bruce, you might as well pack it in. I agree with a little bit of character disparity, but the divide between characters in Tekken 4 is a little extreme.

 

I've had this argument many times before, and unfortunately I can't convince people of Tekken's relevant depth without actually coming over to their house/arcade and playing them, but I will always maintain that the people that think Tekken doesn't have relevant depth are the people that have never seen it played properly.

 

Well, I think they may have never seen it played properly because there's little reason to become ultimately good. You're correct - the curve is steep...so steep that it's almost not worth investing the time to become said Tekken master when button mashing will get you by 60% of the time. And that's why you may never see the proper balance in Tekken (which, like any proper fighting game, is a sight to behold) because, while you're feinting and counterfeinting with top-downs to draw out, Mr. Guy will likely hit kick three times and beat you. Witness somebody who's been working on Xiaoyu (sp?) for a week or so scream when they play against my suite mate, who picks up Tekken for the first time and picks Hwoarang.

 

That's not to take anything away from VF4.  VF4's gameplay is rock solid also, and it is undeniably deeper than Tekken 4.  My problem with VF4 is that there's no arcade community at all, so that depth is lost on me.  I played kumite for ages and got about as good as I can get without seeing other people play, and yet I'm still a total scrub and all that practice doesn't actually translate into wins in multiplayer.  I can't ever see myself having more fun with VF than with Tekken until VF machines start showing up at US arcades.

 

Maybe it's just the differences in experiences, like you said...because I've seen both VF and Tekken machines in local arcades.

 

At any rate, I guess it's up to each individual person. I honestly preferred Tekken Tag to Tekken 4...but I prefer VF4 to Tekken Tag.

 

Then again, I was a huge mark for Street Fighter Alpha as well.

 

The problem is Sega doesnt seem to give a shot about the characters. You see over the time of fighting games characters having a plot and starting to develop through the cource of the series, where in VF the characters are so bland people won't go for it.

 

Yeah, I'll concede that Tekken's plot has been given much more attention than Virtua Fighter's...though it's getting to the point now where they might as well haul in Russo to script Tekken 5.

[Guest EricMM]

Well, I think they may have never seen it played properly because there's little reason to become ultimately good. You're correct - the curve is steep...so steep that it's almost not worth investing the time to become said Tekken master when button mashing will get you by 60% of the time. And that's why you may never see the proper balance in Tekken (which, like any proper fighting game, is a sight to behold) because, while you're feinting and counterfeinting with top-downs to draw out, Mr. Guy will likely hit kick three times and beat you. Witness somebody who's been working on Xiaoyu (sp?) for a week or so scream when they play against my suite mate, who picks up Tekken for the first time and picks Hwoarang.

Sorry but I'm still not agreeing with you. 60% is too high IMO. Where I play, the good people will almost never lose to button mashing. There's no way to mash a good offense, because decided moves are just better than random ones...

 

Hwoarang, Bruce, Kazuya, and even Jin are not unbeatable better. You're misinformed IMO. Especially Hwoarang. He's a decent poker, but not who I would think of as power at all...

[Guest Respect The 'Taker]

So when it comes down to it, is Tekken 4 a better game than Virtua Fighter 4? Or is it, as per usual, just a matter of taste?

 

I was always favorable towards VF as i saw Tekken as a carbon-copy of VF in its early days.

 

...however that is just my opinion

[Guest GeneMean]

It's a matter of taste really.

 

Personally I favor the Tekken games over VF any day. I just can't seem to grasp the concept of a 'block' button that VF and Mortal Kombat have always used.

 

I have to agree with KoR. I will never EVER lose to a button masher unless I am just flat out having a crappy day. However there was a time when Tekken 3 first hit the arcades and it did seem frustrating that every no talent assclown and their mother would pick either Eddy or Hwoarang. Once that learning curve was overcome though, look out.

 

I also didn't buy Tekken for the single player modes, the only reason I even bother playing them is to unlock the other characters. Buying Tekken, or any other fighting game for that matter, for its single player mode is like buying Quake or Unreal Tournament for it's botmatch mode.

[Guest Renegade]

Personally I favor the Tekken games over VF any day. I just can't seem to grasp the concept of a 'block' button that VF and Mortal Kombat have always used.

Your comparing the VF block to the MK block? Wha?

[Guest GeneMean]

No no no .. just the coincidence that both games use a block button. Being reared on games like Street Fighter, KI and Tekken I've always been used to pulling away to block. Thus any game that features a block/defend button is awkward to me because I instinctively pull back to block and end up getting pummelled into next week.

 

While I'm not a big VF fan, I certainly didn't intend to rank it alongside the shit fighting system that is, was and always will be MK.

[Guest Renegade]

Heh, yeah I agree, although I hated the KI games, it always stood out as MK jr to me (at the time anyway).

 

At least Sega got rid of the dodge button from VF3, it just made things confusing.

[Guest The Man in Blak]

Yeah, VF3 wasn't exactly intuitive at all - like I said, I really wasn't a VF fan at all until 4 came out.

 

But as it was said earlier in the thread, this one's totally subjective. We can't really lay down any hard facts to support our claims of button mashing owning - it's all a matter of opinion.

 

It's like the NFL2K/Madden argument - they're both decent games, but they've got specific things that some people are going to like or dislike. I just happen to prefer VF4, for many of the reasons that I listed above.

[Guest KoR Fungus]

<<<Actually, I said that as an illustration of the downright horrible character balance as opposed to the ease of single player mode. You're right - fighters are meant for multiplayer fun, but when you're fighting one of the big Mishima boys (Kasuya, Jin) or Hwaorang or Bruce, you might as well pack it in. I agree with a little bit of character disparity, but the divide between characters in Tekken 4 is a little extreme.>>>

 

The divide between characters is less extreme in Tekken 4 than it has been in any other game in the series, imo. It's pretty universally agreed that Jin is somewhat overpowered, but even then, we're talking going 60/40 with an equally matched opponent using another character, not some sort of automatic win. A bad Jin will always lose to a good anyone else. As for the other chars you mentioned, Kazuya and Hwoarang are generally considered (although I hate tiers) to be second or third tier characters, which means not only are they not broken, but they might even be considered below average. Hwoarang in particular is extremely hard to learn, and while he can be amazing in the hands of a master, he's about as far from a button masher as you're going to get.

 

<<<Well, I think they may have never seen it played properly because there's little reason to become ultimately good. You're correct - the curve is steep...so steep that it's almost not worth investing the time to become said Tekken master when button mashing will get you by 60% of the time. And that's why you may never see the proper balance in Tekken (which, like any proper fighting game, is a sight to behold) because, while you're feinting and counterfeinting with top-downs to draw out, Mr. Guy will likely hit kick three times and beat you. Witness somebody who's been working on Xiaoyu (sp?) for a week or so scream when they play against my suite mate, who picks up Tekken for the first time and picks Hwoarang.>>>

 

The thing is, it's simply not true that mashing buttons will get you by 60% of the time against good players. Scrubs never beat any serious players at my arcade, unless the serious player is just having an unbelievably horrible day. Whenever I (or any of the other serious players) are by ourselves playing against only scrubs, we're liable to win 30 or 40 times in a row using Combot. I've never gotten that kind of consistancy out of VF4, although I'll be the first to admit that I'm not as good at VF4. Still, it feels much easier for a Lei-Fei scrub or Pai scrub to get wins against vets than it does for anyone in Tekken. I'd say that VF4 probably has the steeper learning curve.

 

As for the Ling example, starting out with any character is always going to be frustrating, and that's true in any fighter. If I was to start playing as Akira right now, in a week I'd still be getting my ass kicked by PPPdK scrubs with Pai. That doesn't mean that VF4 isn't worth learning, it just means that subtle characters like Ling and Akira take more than a week to learn.

 

In the end, which is better is going to be a matter of opinion, but there seems to be a lot of ignorance out there when it comes to Tekken. The ideas that Tekken is shallow or a button masher are just not true. It's true that some groups of people play Tekken very badly, but that isn't something to hold against the game.

[Guest EricMM]

I frankly just fail to see how Virtua Fighter has anything gameplay wise that ranks it above Tekken. One can be a bitch and try to prove to me how they're equal, but its just impossible to say VF is better. I could go on and on, and I will if someone asks me to

 

PS NFL2K3 is also better!

[Guest KoR Fungus]

Now Eric, let's face it, you're evaluating VF4 from the most biased position possible. What's the sum total of your experience with it, being forced to play it when you wanted to play CvS2 and then not getting a chance to learn it because experienced people beat you over and over instead of letting you experiment? How many hours have you spent playing it total, five? You don't like it because you haven't really tried it, and because the times you tried to learn it, you got beat up on.

 

I'm wondering, what besides the learning curve do you dislike so much?

[Guest Respect The 'Taker]

No no no .. just the coincidence that both games use a block button. Being reared on games like Street Fighter, KI and Tekken I've always been used to pulling away to block. Thus any game that features a block/defend button is awkward to me because I instinctively pull back to block and end up getting pummelled into next week.

I was much the same with all the 2D fighters i've played, and being a big MK fan, it still took me ages to get it into my head that you need to hit a button to block.

 

Usually, however, in games like MK, going on the offensive is the key to victory. It's also important to note that in the recently released 3D fighters (like Deadly 'DIE MAIN CHARECTER SINCE THE CREATION OF THE GAME DIE' Alliance) the block button has actually become important, as 3D environments are far too versatile for a 'back' motion to be used for blocking.

 

Illusion - Gore freak

[Guest EricMM]

You may say that I didn't give it a chance, but there is a difference between giving a game a learning curve to keep people coming back and making it impossible to do anything of note without a faq. Punch punch kick, punch punch punch, whatever. With tekken it doesn't feel like the game is working against you. Thats how I felt with Virtua Fighter.