Does HHH have it in him?

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Sorry, I did *not* care for the Jericho match. Well, I did at the time, but that was back when I was a huge mark for both guys, and wasn't really paying attention to what they were doing.

 

HHH may have been controlling the match there, but it wasn't any better because of that. Just a lot of "dramatic" moments thrown together by a whole lot of lackluster wrestling, and paced horribly, at that. Like watching a bad slasher flick.

[Guest CanadianChick]

Hard work does not equal great matches. He worked pretty hard in the elimination chamber match, at least from what I understand, and my opinion on that match wasn't too possitive.

 

He had a crap-fest with Benoit that could have been decent had HHH not tried to be all "look at my psychology" with the arm-leg crap that muddled the entire stinking thing.

 

He had a horrible encounter with Angle that was essentially a big ass bump by Trips and then a whole lot of punch-kick nothing.

 

He had a sleep-inducing outing with Austin that went about half an hour too long.

 

While it's questionable whether any of those three opponents he had were "great" workers, HHH failed to do something with any of them and no where did I see him "find a role for himself" that kept them from sucking any less.

 

So no, I don't think the "Luger in '89" excuse works there.

 

I'm not talking about all his matches from 2000. I'm talking about the matches that were actual good matches. And I probably didn't illistrate my point correctly Ricky. What I meant is that in 2000, HHH's opponents made HHH look good and HHH just was good at knowing how to bump and he worked hard. HHH was never a great wreslter to begin with, but he was a real hard-worker in 2000.

[Guest godthedog]

Sorry, I did *not* care for the Jericho match. Well, I did at the time, but that was back when I was a huge mark for both guys, and wasn't really paying attention to what they were doing.

 

HHH may have been controlling the match there, but it wasn't any better because of that. Just a lot of "dramatic" moments thrown together by a whole lot of lackluster wrestling, and paced horribly, at that. Like watching a bad slasher flick.

i honestly never thought trips/foley was all that & a bag of chips, so there we are.

[Guest caboose]

Stating whether or not we think Triple H is a good worker is not the point. The evidence is there that Triple H can perform to some degree. Whether or not he ever performs at this degree again is the question?

I think he will if he ever needs to.

[Guest bob_barron]

v. Y2J X-7

v. Y2J HIAC

v. Rock pre-Summerslam

v. HBK Summerslam

v. RVD Unforgiven (I liked it)

Elimination chamber

The RVD match I didn't like, and it was a train wreck in my opinion. But I can't argue with the rest of the list. But isn't it funny how all the matches involve wrestlers who are of high talent.

I liked the RVD match except for RVD having three visionary pins- I was like: Okay HHH- you're making him look good- I GET IT ALREADY!

[Guest CanadianChick]

Stating whether or not we think Triple H is a good worker is not the point. The evidence is there that Triple H can perform to some degree. Whether or not he ever performs at this degree again is the question?

I think he will if he ever needs to.

I'm sure he can live up to 2000 standard, *if* he has the right opponent, bumps his ass off and is motivated. Just look at his match with Shawn at Summerslam. It may not have been perfect, but it seemed more like 2000 HHH than today's HHH.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Wait - what matches has he had outside of 2000 that were generally considered "good" matches? Besides the tag match where he got injurred and the 2/3 falls debacle with Austin, I can't remember a single one of his matches outside of 2k get much praise.

 

Regardless, I don't think it's fair to say HHH doesn't work hard now. People are much more aware of his faults and he's far less over, but aside from that he still wrestles lengthy matches that require him to bump and he continues to work while injurred pretty regularly.

 

I'm not saying HHH is good, or even decent, but I don't really notice a change in his effort since returning, despite the whining of guys like SKieth who claim he's "going through the motions" as if he's a Saint fallen from grace, or something equally ridiculous. If I could see a reason to call him anything above OK to begin with, I might believe that.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Sorry, I did *not* care for the Jericho match. Well, I did at the time, but that was back when I was a huge mark for both guys, and wasn't really paying attention to what they were doing.

 

HHH may have been controlling the match there, but it wasn't any better because of that. Just a lot of "dramatic" moments thrown together by a whole lot of lackluster wrestling, and paced horribly, at that. Like watching a bad slasher flick.

i honestly never thought trips/foley was all that & a bag of chips, so there we are.

What? I wasn talking about Trips/Jericho, not Trips/Foley, which I admited was a legitimate MOTYC, despite being a rather low-end pick.

 

Stating whether or not we think Triple H is a good worker is not the point. The evidence is there that Triple H can perform to some degree. Whether or not he ever performs at this degree again is the question?

I think he will if he ever needs to.

 

And? When did he stop "performing" then? He's still not any good, but I see no reason to see why he works less. Could you be a little more specific here?

[Guest CanadianChick]

Wait - what matches has he had outside of 2000 that were generally considered "good" matches? Besides the tag match where he got injurred and the 2/3 falls debacle with Austin, I can't remember a single one of his matches outside of 2k get much praise.

 

Regardless, I don't think it's fair to say HHH doesn't work hard now. People are much more aware of his faults and he's far less over, but aside from that he still wrestles lengthy matches that require him to bump and he continues to work while injurred pretty regularly.

 

I'm not saying HHH is good, or even decent, but I don't really notice a change in his effort since returning, despite the whining of guys like SKieth who claim he's "going through the motions" as if he's a Saint fallen from grace, or something equally ridiculous. If I could see a reason to call him anything above OK to begin with, I might believe that.

I see your point, and your probably right. Maybe it is just having the right opponent. I think that maybe the main problem is not finding his "groove" if you know what I mean. In all of his good matches, he plays his role very well. Against Shawn at Summerslam (his best match of the year), he played his role in the match perfectly.

[Guest bob_barron]

The ladder match with Rock and the strap match with Rock were both awesome matches.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

The ladder match with Rock and the strap match with Rock were both awesome matches.

Don't remember the strap match, but the ladder match wasn't anything too special. Aside from Rock attacking the leg a bit (which never really turned into anything important) it was pretty much just a lot of "climing the ladder" spots with a lot of spots thrown in. Pretty standard match for those two, but I wouldn't call it "awesome." I tend to reserve that word for more outstanding stuff.

 

I see your point, and your probably right. Maybe it is just having the right opponent. I think that maybe the main problem is not finding his "groove" if you know what I mean. In all of his good matches, he plays his role very well. Against Shawn at Summerslam (his best match of the year), he played his role in the match perfectly.

 

How as that different from his other matches, though? Sure, HHH seemed more menacing because he had Shawn to bump like a freak for him, but otherwise he didn't do a whole lot differently. Well, besides selling a whole lot more, that is. Actually, he spent most of the match selling. Maybe that's why it seemed so much better? Both guys dominated for really long amounts of time, so they didn't really have to bother with transitions too much, and the few they did use were obviously thought-up before hand.

 

Triple H = terrible at transitions

longer beat-down periods = less transitions

 

Then again, I thought there were TV matches HHH had this year were better than that match, just because his TV matches usually tended to be as long as they needed to be. Shawn/Trips, on the other hand, shouldn't have been a fourth as long as it was. Literally put me to sleep at the end.

[Guest caboose]

Stating whether or not we think Triple H is a good worker is not the point. The evidence is there that Triple H can perform to some degree. Whether or not he ever performs at this degree again is the question?

I think he will if he ever needs to.

 

And? When did he stop "performing" then? He's still not any good, but I see no reason to see why he works less. Could you be a little more specific here?

Triple H stopped performing consistently like he was in 2000-2001 once he returned in January 2002. He knew the hype and money that had been put into his return would guarantee him a Wrestlemania Dream Ticket, and protect him from looking weak, because it would result in making the whole company look weak. At this point he stopped trying as hard as he could, but perhaps more signigficantly, his injury and increased body mass have prevented him from performing at his best. A combination of feeling secure in his position and restriction on his ring work due to his physical condition has made him take a very relaxed approach to working.

The fact that he has managed to perform better on several occasions when the situation required, is evidence to me that when it matters Tripele H can pull his shit together and get the job done. Thats why I hpe he and Steph break up. The situation would then force him to perform week in, week out to maintain any sort of Upper Card status.

[Guest godthedog]

Sorry, I did *not* care for the Jericho match. Well, I did at the time, but that was back when I was a huge mark for both guys, and wasn't really paying attention to what they were doing.

 

HHH may have been controlling the match there, but it wasn't any better because of that. Just a lot of "dramatic" moments thrown together by a whole lot of lackluster wrestling, and paced horribly, at that. Like watching a bad slasher flick.

i honestly never thought trips/foley was all that & a bag of chips, so there we are.

What? I wasn talking about Trips/Jericho, not Trips/Foley, which I admited was a legitimate MOTYC, despite being a rather low-end pick.

it was a tit-for-tat example to show our difference in taste. you preferred trips/foley, i preferred trips/jericho.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Triple H stopped performing consistently like he was in 2000-2001 once he returned in January 2002. He knew the hype and money that had been put into his return would guarantee him a Wrestlemania Dream Ticket, and protect him from looking weak, because it would result in making the whole company look weak.

At this point he stopped trying as hard as he could, but perhaps more signigficantly, his injury and increased body mass have prevented him from performing at his best.

 

I don't buy this "increased body mass" bullshit at all. HHH still does Flair flop, still works his matches at about the same pace, and still pulls off the same moves he did before. I don't care if he's bulked up, I can't see it affecting his matches, which are, in general, pretty much the same.

 

And didn't you previously state that "this isn't about how good HHH is as a worker"? What's the destinction between "producing good work" and "performing well" exactly?

 

A combination of feeling secure in his position and restriction on his ring work due to his physical condition has made him take a very relaxed approach to working. The fact that he has managed to perform better on several occasions when the situation required, is evidence to me that when it matters Tripele H can pull his shit together and get the job done.

 

Relaxed? He's been working injurred for a lot his matches. Again, none of them were any good, but it wasn't because HHH was mailing it in, or anthing.

 

Regardless, even in cases where HHH would have a reason to work harder (like against his budy Shawn) the results haven't been all that much improved over his other matches. The HIAC with Jericho was no better because of HHH "stepping it up" either.

 

Thats why I hpe he and Steph break up. The situation would then force him to perform week in, week out to maintain any sort of Upper Card status.

 

He does perform week in and week out...at the same levle he's been performing for his entire career. Did I miss all the brilliant work he did in those Raw six-man main events in 2000?

 

it was a tit-for-tat example to show our difference in taste. you preferred trips/foley, i preferred trips/jericho.

 

Sorry, my bad. I see your point, and seeing as we both agree that HHH wasn't that great a worker in 2000, it's probably not worth belaboring the point of which matches had were worth watching.

[Guest caboose]

Well seeing as his heavier frame puts even more pressure on his injured knee, both his stamina and ability to perform longer (not that joke) is affected. This may be contradicted by his long matches against Michaels and in the elimination chamber, but they were in garbage brawls.

 

He has been working injured and thats where my point is, would he be able to work better if uninjured? I'm going to have to assume so. And seeing as he is injured, he is not exactly be pushing hard in case of further increasing the injury.

 

Not once habe I said that Triple H's work in 2000 was brilliant. I'm saying it was consistently better than his current work and thats what he should aim for. He first needs to get back into better ring shape, if he can or wants to.

[Guest Special K]

I have to say, the muscle mass has slown him down a bit. A lot of what he did well was brawling, and while he still throws a pretty mean worked punch, he just brawls slower. This is not entirely his fault as I'm sure he is loathe to build up his lower body since the quad tear. (having that big an upper body on those legs must really wear on you.)

 

TO counteract this though, since he's so strong, why doens't he do a couple, i dunno, power moves? I know it hasn't been his thing, but if you can do it, and I'm sure he can, why not?

[Guest Just call me Dan]

I think a good example of HHH's lack of performance as of late would be his feuds with Undertaker and Kane.

 

Some of you may not fully agree, but I remember enjoying hs match with Taker at WMX-8 and his chain match with Kane at Judgment Day 2001.

 

If you take a look at King of the Ring 2002 and No Mercy 2002, I think it is safe to say that Taker and Kane didn't get any slower, HHH just lost his ability to put on a decent match.

 

Now I agree with Ricky on his bad transitions (which make a match a good match) but HHH was on a Rock-level of performance back then.

 

When you look at the Rock, he doesn't ooze technical ability, but his crispness and sheer performance make him great. HHH showed similar characteristics in a way that fit his character at the time, and he followed that like a law. He performed well by combining decent selling and fluent crisp moves. Now his moveset is even more limited (it was never fantastic), he doesn't sell and could give two shits about his character ( all his tweener moments) HHH = Nash.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Am I the only one who enjoyed the Benoit match at No Mercy 2000? Aside from the finish, I thought the psych was pretty solid. Trips had just beaten the crap out of everyone all year, and Benoit was expecting that going in. HHH studied him to find some weaknesses, and threw a curve ball by actually trying to wrestle him. He got Benoit hurt early and capitalized on it. Good stuff from where I sit.

[Guest dvkorn]

Triple H in 2000 was pretty darn good. Pretty much every PPV match that he had that year was DECENT except maybe KOTR, which i didn't like. Vs Foley at the Rumble was IMO the Match of the Year. then again at No Way Out. Had a decent wrestlemania match. Excellent matches with Rock at Backlash and an awesome 57 and 1/2 minutes of the Iron Man Match. Vs Jericho was great. SummerSlam was pretty good. Vs Angle in Sep, while a little disappointing was still decent. Vs Benoit was pretty good. Austin at Survivor Series was ok with a fucked up finish and the 6 man Hell in the Cell was decent.

 

2001 - Rumble decent match with Angle

No Way Out ***** with Austin

Mania - got a *** match out of Taker which is unheard of

Backlash - an ok main event tag match

Judgment Day - an ok match with Kane

 

plus the Tag match on RAW where he got his injury.

 

Anyway, to answer the question that the topic is about. I do think HHH can be 2000 good again but i don't think he will be.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

It seems to me in his interviews he's trying to mix DX HHH with My Time HHH. And we get The Lame.

And that just doesn't work.

Actually, I think it's more like mixing American Blueblood with My Time.

 

And I want the My Time HHH back again. He sent chills down my spine with that "you never saw it coming" promo on Austin, and that was in a pre-taped segment from a chair, a setup that usually dooms promos to have no tension whatsoever.

 

I don't think we're ever going to see anything like the IronMan again, but he can sure put on a good garbage match when he wants to as judging by the PPV. Which of course means he could have done a lot more with Bubba Dudley, that's for sure. That angle got thrown out at the last minute, possibly because of poor fan reaction?

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Really? The "You never...saw it...coming..." promo really borred me at the time, despite being a mark for him. Horribly repetative, way too long, and really, without a point. "WE GET IT!! YOU SWERVED AUSTIN!! MOVE ON!!!"

 

The match Vs. Benoit was basically a whole lot of arm-leg work with the usual "I'll sell when it's convenient" atttitude to putting it all over. Not to mention the "wrestling portion" wasn't all that great, and since HHH has never been good at that anyway, it didn't make for a "classic" by any means.

 

And if Austin/HHH is *****, then so is that Goldust/Christian match from Raw. Terrible, terrible work that damn near put me to sleep the second time I tried to watch it. Blech.

 

As for HHH's body mass putting more pressure on the injuries, it's a valid point, but not one that I see dimishing his ability significantly. I just don't see the 2000 stuff as being all that much better.

 

To put it in perspective, you comment that all of HHH's longer matches from this year were "garbagy brawls." How was this different from 00-01? The afformentioned Austin/HHH crap-fest was full of garbage, as was his iron man match, as was the street fight with Foley. Hell, the Jericho match had plenty of garbage to kill time. HHH was just as reliant on prop shots and blade jobs back then, if not more so.

[Guest caboose]

I also hate the Austin-Triple H match from No Way Out 2001, and have never 'got it'.

But evidenced by the Iron Man Match with Rocky and his work on RAW and SmackDown from 2000-2001, Triple H could still 'shut up and wrestle', rather than just brawl, and his stamina was considerably higher.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

And if Austin/HHH is *****, then so is that Goldust/Christian match from Raw.

You gotta realize. I don't like or hate wrestling purely on the wrestling and the wrestling alone. 90% of people here seem to do that and it bothers me.

 

For me, even a bad match with a good buildup will be better than a good match with no buildup. Of course, a GREAT match with no buildup is better than a simply good match with buildup, etc... And of course, a match with a TERRIBLE buildup (Katie Vick, I look in your direction) is just darn bad, especially when the blowoff doesn't pay either.

 

Austin/HHH had enough drama going into it that I almost didn't mind the car-drop finish (almost.) It's like how Rock vs Hogan had such a great buildup that I didn't mind that it was all about Rock Bottoms and Back Rakes.

 

And yes, those matches were garbage-y brawls. But they were good. And I thought that up until the ladder match, the Armageddon match was, too. I don't know if it was THAT good, because back in 2000 I only went to an internet wrestling site once a month and I never read other people's opinions. I'm leaning on "no," but I'm not sure if that's just residue of being around enough netsmarks or not.

 

I hate ECW look-at-all-this-gore matches, yet I still put Foley and Funk higher than Flair on my personal list of favorites, if you get the drift.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

"But evidenced by the Iron Man Match with Rocky and his work on RAW and SmackDown from 2000-2001, Triple H could still 'shut up and wrestle', rather than just brawl, and his stamina was considerably higher."

 

The Iron man match was *full* of brawling. AGH! That match was 70% stalling/rest-holds, 25% brawling, and %5 familiarity spots. There was no "wrestling" to speak of. As for his work on Raw and Smackdown, it was usually in 6 man tags where he came in to punch/kick and hit his signature spots. HHH did his thing and got by with it, but he was not any more of a "wrestler" than he is now.

 

"You gotta realize. I don't like or hate wrestling purely on the wrestling and the wrestling alone. 90% of people here seem to do that and it bothers me."

 

It bothers you that people pay attention to the match to decide whether its good or not?

 

"For me, even a bad match with a good buildup will be better than a good match with no buildup."

 

To each his own, but what the hell is the point of all the good build up if it's a shit match? Austin/HHH is, to anyone who actually watch it, as flawed, drawn out, and borring a match as you'll ever find. It's horrible. I liked the feud to, but the match sucks. Think whatever you like, but a spade is a spade, in my book.

 

"Austin/HHH had enough drama going into it that I almost didn't mind the car-drop finish (almost.) It's like how Rock vs Hogan had such a great buildup that I didn't mind that it was all about Rock Bottoms and Back Rakes."

 

I'm not talking about the match with the car drop finish. That was, to be generous, an angle pretending to be a match (and what an angle, eh?). The 2/3 falls match is the one I'm talking about. That was designed to be the blow off to their fued and supposedly justify that endless amounts of build-up.

 

This is kind of continuing an unnecesary tangent, but what was "great" about the Rock/Hogan build-up? The semi-truck angle was lame, and the "Hogan cuts a promo on a card-board cut-out" bit didn't make me excited to see them fight.

 

The match itself was layed out smartly. It's not great, but they certainly made better use of their strengths than Austin and Hunter did.

 

"And yes, those matches were garbage-y brawls. But they were good."

 

Austin/Trips was good for putting me to sleep, otherwise, I can't see much possitives about it.

 

 

"And I thought that up until the ladder match, the Armageddon match was, too."

 

How so? Bad attempts at wrestling, bad psych, bad match. Not to mention they did the old Hogan/Piper "try to get out of the cage for ten minutes and then end with a pin" schtick that made it even worse.

 

"I don't know if it was THAT good, because back in 2000 I only went to an internet wrestling site once a month and I never read other people's opinions. I'm leaning on "no," but I'm not sure if that's just residue of being around enough netsmarks or not."

 

Well, you're probably on the right track then. I remembered enjoying it when it happened, but that's because I was barely paying attention and was into the fued. Watching it again, I couldn't stand it. I would recommend that you re-watch it too.

[Guest Special K]

What makes brawling good brawling? Speed. Or stiffness. Since the WWE hates stiff workers, you have to keep up the pace. If you just lumber around throwing punches slowly, it's gonna be shit. Whether it's HHHs injuries, laziness or a combination of both, he's really slowed down, making the brawling parts of his match look awful. Plus his ability to bump and put other's offense over is greatly diminished.

[Guest Vyce]

I doubt he will, because honestly, why does he have to?

 

Look at it from his perspective - he's frequently injured. It's fair to say, at this point, that he'll likely NEVER be the same again after his quad tear (it caused him to lose a step - if not physically, then psychologically). To his advantage, he's worked himself into the position of a top draw (even if we question his actual drawing ability) with the company. It's kind of cruel to insinuate that he's only dating Steph for the power it brings, but let's be pragmatic - he keeps her happy, he's got the head booker on his side. She can protect him, she can cut him some slack as his overall performance as a worker / entertainer begins to decline.

 

He won't work to become a better worker again because he doesn't HAVE too.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

I'm not talking about the match with the car drop finish. That was, to be generous, an angle pretending to be a match (and what an angle, eh?). The 2/3 falls match is the one I'm talking about.

Ah. We lost cable at that point and stopped watching regularly at that point, IIRC. Or something. But I never saw that match.

[Guest godthedog]

"But evidenced by the Iron Man Match with Rocky and his work on RAW and SmackDown from 2000-2001, Triple H could still 'shut up and wrestle', rather than just brawl, and his stamina was considerably higher."

 

The Iron man match was *full* of brawling. AGH! That match was 70% stalling/rest-holds, 25% brawling, and %5 familiarity spots. There was no "wrestling" to speak of. As for his work on Raw and Smackdown, it was usually in 6 man tags where he came in to punch/kick and hit his signature spots. HHH did his thing and got by with it, but he was not any more of a "wrestler" than he is now.

THANK YOU. whenever they didn't know what to do in the iron man match, rock and trips would just go outside and brawl. michaels even had to cover for it by telling JR that he wasn't going to count them both out. and about halfway through, both of them got REALLY...REALLY...TIRED. the booking was smart but the pacing was bad & the athleticism was worse. it was a punch-kick 60-minute match, it was not a wrestling match.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Hard work does not equal great matches. He worked pretty hard in the elimination chamber match, at least from what I understand, and my opinion on that match wasn't too possitive.

 

He had a crap-fest with Benoit that could have been decent had HHH not tried to be all "look at my psychology" with the arm-leg crap that muddled the entire stinking thing.

 

He had a horrible encounter with Angle that was essentially a big ass bump by Trips and then a whole lot of punch-kick nothing.

 

He had a sleep-inducing outing with Austin that went about half an hour too long.

 

While it's questionable whether any of those three opponents he had were "great" workers, HHH failed to do something with any of them and no where did I see him "find a role for himself" that kept them from sucking any less.

 

So no, I don't think the "Luger in '89" excuse works there.

His macth with Austin at NWO 2001 was given 5 Stars by Keith and Meltzer. Now, I wouldn't go that far it was not sleep inducing. That sounds pompous to me.

[Guest Respect The 'Taker]

Stating whether or not we think Triple H is a good worker is not the point. The evidence is there that Triple H can perform to some degree. Whether or not he ever performs at this degree again is the question?

I think he will if he ever needs to.

Which im sure, my dear friend caboose, won't ever occur. As long as Roid Boy is still porking the 2nd in command while mind fucking the owner every week, he has NO need to worry about ever needing to improve his work ethic.

 

Why bust your ass when you can make just as much having others do it for your benefit? Seems to be the motto of Mr.Helmsley if you ask me.

 

Illusion