Guest CanadianChick Posted December 21, 2002 Report Posted December 21, 2002 I'm still entertained by Jericho, but I think thats more from his mic work than ring work. He is still able to have good matches, but not with the wrestlers in the Raw brand.
Guest RickyChosyu Posted December 21, 2002 Report Posted December 21, 2002 I don't get this "HHH dogs it now" arguement. Both guys tried in that match, and it was still borring. I don't think Jericho and Trips had a good match in them to begin with, really. HHH and Jericho had a great garbagy Last man Standing Match at Fully Loaded 2000 The last time I tried to watch that match, I couldn't get through it. While I can see how fans of the "WWE style prop shot death match" could get into it, anyone who thought those two could actually have good long wrestling match without the garbage were out of their minds.
Guest TheyCallMeMark Posted December 22, 2002 Report Posted December 22, 2002 Ricky, to me it seemed he could really guide a match through his selling (which seems good to me) and just good work ethic in general. The only thing that seems weak to me is his offense, which is kind of sloppy, but not to a degree at which it significantly hacks down my enjoyment of his matches. And I didn't mean Dribble H was dogging it in that match, he seemed to be cranking it out as hard as he could, to me. I was just noting it didn't look like Jericho was really trying to do shit beyond waiting for the inevitable loss. It wasn't good, but it's the best thing I've seen out of Hunter since he returned (I didn't see either of the HBK matches).
Guest cabbageboy Posted December 22, 2002 Report Posted December 22, 2002 Back to RVD....it's not that hard for Brock to get a big pop on SMDN as a face, since the show has few guys who could be considered a total face anyway. You have to consider though if RVD debuted on SMDN he'd be big time over and fresh on that particular show, so he'd outpop Brock in an instant. Hell, RVD is still the most over guy on Raw even after the constant abuse he's received in the past couple of months.
Guest RickyChosyu Posted December 22, 2002 Report Posted December 22, 2002 Ricky, to me it seemed he could really guide a match through his selling (which seems good to me) and just good work ethic in general. The only thing that seems weak to me is his offense, which is kind of sloppy, but not to a degree at which it significantly hacks down my enjoyment of his matches. And I didn't mean Dribble H was dogging it in that match, he seemed to be cranking it out as hard as he could, to me. I was just noting it didn't look like Jericho was really trying to do shit beyond waiting for the inevitable loss. It wasn't good, but it's the best thing I've seen out of Hunter since he returned (I didn't see either of the HBK matches). In the past Jericho has usually been reliable as far as trying pretty damn hard, but smart work and hard work are two different things. I never accused Jericho of being lazy (if anything, his track reccord indicates that he puts forward *too much* effort) but his ability to tell a story in the ring is no better than Spike Dudley's. He plays the plucky underdog hitting spordadic offense decently enough, but when he has to take control or work a complex sequence he's pretty much uselss and especially lately, he just throws his shit out there and hopes that it gets the job done. And his selling in that match was pretty spotty. There were a few good moments where he showed his Fighting Spirit and what-not, but it was placed in between sloppy work and was inconsistent. WM might have been the best match he's had this year. I'm not one to go to bat for the Michaels matches but then I'm not a big fan of Jericho's either.
Guest TheyCallMeMark Posted December 23, 2002 Report Posted December 23, 2002 It could be that I'm just confused. Perhaps I think he's working harder when he's just getting lucky after throwing it down. I'll go back and watch some of my Jericho material and see if I can notice what you've mentioned.
Guest Loss4Words Posted December 23, 2002 Report Posted December 23, 2002 I'm sometimes annoyed at the mindset that there are only two types of wrestlers -- great wrestlers and horrible wrestlers. There are very good workers, good workers, average workers and below average workers. Calling Jericho anything less than very good is short-sighted. Let's take a look at his current track record for 2002 and you tell me what you think: 1. He carried Kane to his best match in nearly a year on RAW earlier this year. He built to a finish by working his leg the entire match building to the Walls of Jericho. Kane kept forgetting to sell, and Jericho kept going right back to that knee to remind him. He varied his moveset by adding in a ringpost figure four and he did a picture-perfect superplex. The match had small crowd interest at first and by the end, the crowd was into every near fall. It was focused, it was strong and it was ALL because of Jericho. 2. He carried Hulk Hogan to his best matches since the prime of Ric Flair on Smackdown earlier this year. I'm assuming he studied tapes, because he toggled back and forth between the Randy Savage and Mr. Perfect working styles and also was able to get a better match out of Hogan than Angle or HHH could. I don't think Chris Benoit could get a watchable match out of Hulk Hogan because of the clash in styles. 3. Some of Benoit's best matches have been against him. 4. Some of Rock's best matches have been against him. 5. Some of HHH's best matches have been against him. 6. He got more out of RVD in the fall of 2001 that anyone else has been able to since -- including Jericho himself. 7. I don't understand what is bad about Jericho taunting the crowd. Isn't that part of working as a heel? Seems to me, it's what Ric Flair did for his entire prime. 8. Jericho's arrival in the company started the political games because he was the first legitimate threat to any of the top guys since the rise of Steve Austin and the Rock. He also, along with Chris Benoit, put forth such physical matches that he and Benoit upped the ante for every worker in the company to a point where any matches that followed Benoit v Jericho on PPV had to be overbooked to not be overshadowed. You can thank Benoit and Jericho for helping the company (partially) transition out of the Russo era and at least start putting on good matches again. 9. If he wasn't a terrific working babyface, his comebacks would not have gotten the response they always did. 10. If he wasn't a terrific working heel, his opponents' comebacks would not be getting the response they always get. 11. There's something special about a performer who can be jobbed out for three years to everyone under the sun, get a few pity pushes and still be among the most over guys in the company. He's no longer bulletproof, but he can still withstand quite a bit. 12. If Jericho is not the best wrestler on RAW, who is? Please advise.
Guest TheyCallMeMark Posted December 23, 2002 Report Posted December 23, 2002 Well, he's definatly the best wrestler on RAW. Looking over all of my tapes and such... All of my Jericho matches are against Benoit and Ultimo, which kind of leaves me high and dry on the whole seeing how good he was/is thing, because he seems astoundingly good in all of those matches. I just couldn't see that he was being carried in any of them. In a sense, I guess he was, but he really was the one in those matches who was working the crowd. I don't think those matches would have been as good without him.
Guest RickyChosyu Posted December 23, 2002 Report Posted December 23, 2002 Well, he's definatly the best wrestler on RAW. Looking over all of my tapes and such... All of my Jericho matches are against Benoit and Ultimo, which kind of leaves me high and dry on the whole seeing how good he was/is thing, because he seems astoundingly good in all of those matches. I just couldn't see that he was being carried in any of them. In a sense, I guess he was, but he really was the one in those matches who was working the crowd. I don't think those matches would have been as good without him. Just watch any Jericho match around the same period as his good ones in '95 and it's obvious enough who the two greats out of the three were. The J-Cup match, especially, is ALL Benoit, as Jericho is visably out of gas within a few minutes and Benoit is the one with the reigns for quite a while. He lets Jericho go nutts with his offense a few times, but mostly it's him setting the ground work and building the entire rookie/underdog story that he was so good at. The Ultimo match is more of a spot-fest, but then Ultimo still manages to look better than Chris there because he's much cleaner with his spots and transitions better. "Calling Jericho anything less than very good is short-sighted." I have to wonder, then, what Chris Benoit, even at his current state would be called. Very very very very very very very great? "1. He carried Kane to his best match in nearly a year on RAW earlier this year. He built to a finish by working his leg the entire match building to the Walls of Jericho. Kane kept forgetting to sell, and Jericho kept going right back to that knee to remind him. He varied his moveset by adding in a ringpost figure four and he did a picture-perfect superplex." The Walls of Jericho works the knee? Since when? It takes more than working the leg to be called a "very good worker." Drawing the fans in to what you're doing, reacting to your opponent's offense, telling a story with the work, that's what I consider "very good." Jericho worked the leg for a while about as effectively as any scrub on the indy circuit could. That match had little heat, and little in the way of focus accept for Jericho's shallow "leg psychology" or whatever it was. Did it ever seem like that leg work would get Jericho the win? Did it ever appear like it would hinder Kane's ability to win? If not, I have to ask: what was the point of doing it? I know psych in WWE matches is hard to come by, but if working the leg to kill time makes someone a very good worker, then Justin Credible may be one of the lost great workers of our age. "2. He carried Hulk Hogan to his best matches since the prime of Ric Flair on Smackdown earlier this year." WM against Rock was layed was better. Smarter pacing, established both men as equal and didn't require a crap load of bumping to cover up for Hogan's ineptitude. Jericho/Hogan was the standard Hogan match, in pretty much every sense. "I'm assuming he studied tapes, because he toggled back and forth between the Randy Savage and Mr. Perfect working styles and also was able to get a better match out of Hogan than Angle or HHH could." Well, HHH was terrible in their match and the Angle match seemed about equal with Jericho's in terms of how they worked with Hogan. Hogan isn't exactly the kind of guy to help exibit his opponent's strengths. Nine times out of ten, his opponents just bump around for him because they're sticking to what he knows how to do. It's not as if you can look at a Hogan match and go "see, THAT'S what makes a good worker!" "I don't think Chris Benoit could get a watchable match out of Hulk Hogan because of the clash in styles." No one thought Benoit could work with the Rock either, and he got some of the most enjoyable matches I've seen out of the guy in a while. Benoit has never had trouble working with fossils or slugs in the ring. Of course he would have to dumb down his work a hell of a lot for Hulk, but there's no reason to believe he couldn't do just as well as Kurt and Jericho did. "3. Some of Benoit's best matches have been against him." Don't know where you're coming from with this. The only Benoit/Jericho match I've ever had the urge to watch again was 12/13/95. He had much better matches before and after that, and the matches with Jericho since then have all been forgettable. "4. Some of Rock's best matches have been against him." I don't remember those matches being any better or worse than what Kurt, HHH, and even Rikishi did with Rock. As far as Rock matches go, I'll take the stuff Austin and Benoit did with him over the other stuff. "5. Some of HHH's best matches have been against him." The only match between them that got much praise was Fully Loaded 2000, and that was garbaged up the wazoo. Their actual "wrestling" matches together made it pretty obvious that they couldn't do much without their blood and plunder. "6. He got more out of RVD in the fall of 2001 that anyone else has been able to since -- including Jericho himself." Jericho's match with RVD was no better or worse than the Jeff Hardy matches around the same period. The only match from Rob durring his mega over run in 2001 I really enjoyed was the non-title match with Austin. "7. I don't understand what is bad about Jericho taunting the crowd. Isn't that part of working as a heel? Seems to me, it's what Ric Flair did for his entire prime." Yeah, but Big Show does it quite often too. There's nothing wrong with sticking it to the crowd, but if it's done merely to kill time and avoid, you know, wrestling, I don't really enjoy it that much. Jericho isn't Zybyzco levle bad with his stalling, but he's obvious enough about it that it doesn't add to his matches at all. "8. Jericho's arrival in the company started the political games because he was the first legitimate threat to any of the top guys since the rise of Steve Austin and the Rock. He also, along with Chris Benoit, put forth such physical matches that he and Benoit upped the ante for every worker in the company to a point where any matches that followed Benoit v Jericho on PPV had to be overbooked to not be overshadowed." What would you call HHH then? Mankind? Kane? There plenty of other guys looking to get the big push before Benoit and Jericho showed up. Yes, Jericho was over, but so was Junkyard Dog. As for "physical work" Jericho used lots of high spots, yes, but that doesn't mean he was a good worker. And there were plenty of guys working "physical" matches before them, to boot. Mankind bumping like a maniac, for one, and the Hardy Boyz using their spot fu to get over as another. I'm also failing to see what this says about Jericho as a wrestler. "9. If he wasn't a terrific working babyface, his comebacks would not have gotten the response they always did." He's charismatic. That doesn't make him a good worker. 10. If he wasn't a terrific working heel, his opponents' comebacks would not be getting the response they always get. None of his heel matches have had off-the-charts heat, accept a few against Rock, and his popularity speaks for itself. His other heel matches have had nothing above average in terms of work or heat. "11. There's something special about a performer who can be jobbed out for three years to everyone under the sun, get a few pity pushes and still be among the most over guys in the company. He's no longer bulletproof, but he can still withstand quite a bit." Over guys in the company? Cricketts chirp when his music goes off. He hasn't been really over in about year. "12. If Jericho is not the best wrestler on RAW, who is? Please advise." Booker T. deffinately. Better offense, timing, and ring presence. He's not great, but he can play a more effective role than Jericho in terms of rallying a crowd these days, for sure.
Guest Loss4Words Posted December 24, 2002 Report Posted December 24, 2002 "I have to wonder, then, what Chris Benoit, even at his current state would be called. Very very very very very very very great? " Benoit is better than Jericho, along with Angle and Guerrero, but there's not as much difference between them as you seem to think. "The Walls of Jericho works the knee? Since when?" Hey, the Sharpshooter didn't work the knee either, but Bret Hart always did knee work as part of the build to the move. Wrestling is about perception and if the perception is that the WOJ affects the knees, then guess what, the WOJ affects the knees. "It takes more than working the leg to be called a 'very good worker.' Drawing the fans in to what you're doing, reacting to your opponent's offense, telling a story with the work, that's what I consider 'very good.'" By your criteria, Jericho is a far better worker than Benoit. I don't see Benoit taking bumps on the level of Jericho, nor do I see the charisma, facial expressions and ability to work the crowd. While we're talking about body part work, I can't think of a single Benoit match in the WWE where the fans have gasped when he has put his opponent in the crossface. This is not a Jericho-exclusive problem. Kayfabe is dead and you're evaluating Jericho under a different set of rules from everyone else. "Jericho worked the leg for a while about as effectively as any scrub on the indy circuit could. That match had little heat, and little in the way of focus accept for Jericho's shallow 'leg psychology' or whatever it was." Ok, just so I understand where you're coming from, what should Jericho have done *differently* in that match if he was trying to get the crowd to gasp in horror every time he even looked at Kane's knee? "Did it ever seem like that leg work would get Jericho the win? Did it ever appear like it would hinder Kane's ability to win?" No, but that's more of a result of booking undercutting Jericho's credibility than it is his faults as a worker. If HHH worked the exact same match, sequence for sequence, the heat would have been even greater because he has more credibility than Jericho because he backs up his words with actions. "If not, I have to ask: what was the point of doing it? I know psych in WWE matches is hard to come by, but if working the leg to kill time makes someone a very good worker, then Justin Credible may be one of the lost great workers of our age. " Working the leg to kill time? Reminds me of how the NJ juniors work the mat for the first 10-15 minutes of every match to "kill time". Or how the All Japan matches everyone raves about have headlocks in the first five minutes that don't play into the finish. Once again, I feel like you're evaluating Jericho under a different set of criteria. "WM against Rock was layed was better. Smarter pacing, established both men as equal and didn't require a crap load of bumping to cover up for Hogan's ineptitude. Jericho/Hogan was the standard Hogan match, in pretty much every sense." Rock v Hogan was indeed a smart match, but Rock and Hogan didn't work a 12-minute TV match either. And there definitely wasn't an agent booking the match move-for-move two weeks in advance. Yes, it was a smart match, but if you put Rock out there against Hogan in a 12-minute TV match, it would be worse than Hogan v Jericho, and I think even Rock would admit that, since he's said openly that he thinks Jericho is the best worker in the company. "Well, HHH was terrible in their match and the Angle match seemed about equal with Jericho's in terms of how they worked with Hogan. Hogan isn't exactly the kind of guy to help exibit his opponent's strengths. Nine times out of ten, his opponents just bump around for him because they're sticking to what he knows how to do. It's not as if you can look at a Hogan match and go 'see, THAT'S what makes a good worker!'" Working a better match inside limitations than someone else working a match inside the same limitations makes the person who worked the better match a better worker. At least on that given night. "No one thought Benoit could work with the Rock either, and he got some of the most enjoyable matches I've seen out of the guy in a while. Benoit has never had trouble working with fossils or slugs in the ring. Of course he would have to dumb down his work a hell of a lot for Hulk, but there's no reason to believe he couldn't do just as well as Kurt and Jericho did." Benoit is a great worker, but he works primarily with other great workers. Jericho doesn't have that luxury. And I'd have to say the Rock v Jericho No Mercy match was far better than any Benoit v Rock match. Need I remind anyone of the Benoit v Meng series? "Don't know where you're coming from with this. The only Benoit/Jericho match I've ever had the urge to watch again was 12/13/95. He had much better matches before and after that, and the matches with Jericho since then have all been forgettable." The Royal Rumble ladder match and the Backlash 2000 match were both far from forgettable. "I don't remember those matches being any better or worse than what Kurt, HHH, and even Rikishi did with Rock. As far as Rock matches go, I'll take the stuff Austin and Benoit did with him over the other stuff." I think you should watch No Mercy 2001 and Vengeance 2001 again. "The only match between them that got much praise was Fully Loaded 2000, and that was garbaged up the wazoo. Their actual 'wrestling' matches together made it pretty obvious that they couldn't do much without their blood and plunder." Disagreed. Remember the match where Jericho won the title and had it taken away from him? Well-paced, energetic and good role playing from both made for quite the enjoyable TV match. They didn't meet again until spring of 2001 on Smackdown in a pretty awesome little 8-minute match that saw Jericho come within an eyelash of beating HHH. And Fully Loaded wasn't great because of the plunder or the blood, it was great because of the selling Jericho was doing when he was daring HHH to punch him again. That was among the best babyface selling I've seen in years. "Jericho's match with RVD was no better or worse than the Jeff Hardy matches around the same period. The only match from Rob durring his mega over run in 2001 I really enjoyed was the non-title match with Austin." You mean the match where Austin allowed him to get ZERO offense. The extended TBS studio squash? Rob's a limited worker too, granted, and Jericho got more out of him than either Benoit or Guerrero could in 2002. "Yeah, but Big Show does it quite often too. There's nothing wrong with sticking it to the crowd, but if it's done merely to kill time and avoid, you know, wrestling, I don't really enjoy it that much. Jericho isn't Zybyzco levle bad with his stalling, but he's obvious enough about it that it doesn't add to his matches at all." It gets heat. "What would you call HHH then? Mankind? Kane? There plenty of other guys looking to get the big push before Benoit and Jericho showed up." Agreed, but surely you can't argue the difference in the product between 1999 and 2000. "Yes, Jericho was over, but so was Junkyard Dog. As for 'physical work' Jericho used lots of high spots, yes, but that doesn't mean he was a good worker." No it doesn't. But the fact that he busted out new submission stuff he had never done before at Judgment Day 2000 shows that he's a good worker. Selling his ass of for Benoit and being the guy who ended up getting Benoit ready for the world title picture (when it should have been the other way around) shows that he's a good worker. Making well-timed comebacks shows that he's a good worker. "And there were plenty of guys working 'physical' matches before them, to boot. Mankind bumping like a maniac, for one, and the Hardy Boyz using their spot fu to get over as another. I'm also failing to see what this says about Jericho as a wrestler." I wasn't referring to the high spots. I was referring to the stiffness of the matches with Benoit. I don't understand how you can't see the difference between Jericho's style of low-key aerial offense and dramatic selling compared to the spotfestivity of RVD, Jeff Hardy and Sabu. You don't see Jericho doing triple reverse moonsaults or going through tables. Actually, he's comparable to Brian Pillman in the early 90s. "He's charismatic. That doesn't make him a good worker." Actually it does. How can anyone draw a crowd into a match without charisma? "None of his heel matches have had off-the-charts heat, accept a few against Rock, and his popularity speaks for itself. His other heel matches have had nothing above average in terms of work or heat." By average, I'm assuming you mean what everyone else is doing on RAW. In that case, he's well above average. Once again, I think you're judging Jericho by an unfair standard. "Over guys in the company? Cricketts chirp when his music goes off. He hasn't been really over in about year." I beg to differ and I think it's obvious to anyone who watches RAW that while he's not at his peak anymore, he's still very over. "Booker T. deffinately. Better offense, timing, and ring presence. He's not great, but he can play a more effective role than Jericho in terms of rallying a crowd these days, for sure." Booker's offense consists entirely of scissor kicks. I've never seen the fans rally when he's fighting his way out of a reverse chinlock. I thought charisma didn't make a good worker. And while I love Booker and think he's a fun character, I know better than to call him a better worker than Chris Jericho.
Guest The Hamburglar Posted December 24, 2002 Report Posted December 24, 2002 Working the leg to kill time? Reminds me of how the NJ juniors work the mat for the first 10-15 minutes of every match to "kill time". Or how the All Japan matches everyone raves about have headlocks in the first five minutes that don't play into the finish. Once again, I feel like you're evaluating Jericho under a different set of criteria. Y'know, this is a pretty good point. Of the NJ Junior stuff, I've seen, only a few matches actually go somewhere from all the mat work. The fact that its a part of every match means that it can sometimes get criminally boring. All japan has the same problem but not to such a great extent. I guess I just don't see the difference between pointless time-killing limb work and super-duper works on a level of soul rejuvenation limb work. Except when Shinjiro Ohtani does it. Then its just pure fun fun fun. Booker T better than Jericho? No...just....No. I can only take so many sidekicks and chinlocks before falling into oblivion. Jericho's offense is hardly stellar, but at least there's some variety. And Jericho's WWE matches with Benoit were uber-kewl, mostly because both men were playing their defined roles really well. The Jericho-Rock matches also ruled in many ways. Jericho does dog it way too much though. And yet somehow, I'll never truly abandon my Jerichohol, no matter how boring his storylines get. Anyways, Jericho's beard = ownzors everyone. To the beard O'doom there is truly no rebuttal.
Guest RickyChosyu Posted December 24, 2002 Report Posted December 24, 2002 "Hey, the Sharpshooter didn't work the knee either, but Bret Hart always did knee work as part of the build to the move. Wrestling is about perception and if the perception is that the WOJ affects the knees, then guess what, the WOJ affects the knees." Didn't the Sharpshooter always worked the lower back and the knee? Bret also worked to it that way by working both. "By your criteria, Jericho is a far better worker than Benoit. I don't see Benoit taking bumps on the level of Jericho, nor do I see the charisma, facial expressions and ability to work the crowd." Maybe you misunderstood my criteria, then. Benoit's facial expresions, his selling, bumping, ability to draw in the crowd and build toward a finish dwarf Jericho in every match I've ever seen him in. There's no comparison, from where I sit. "While we're talking about body part work, I can't think of a single Benoit match in the WWE where the fans have gasped when he has put his opponent in the crossface." His Armageddon match with Eddy saw the crossface recieve a sizeable pop. It's always recieved a sufficient reaction, in all the matches I've seen him in over the years. Have I been getting Wrestling from the Twighlight Zone Where No One Buys Benoit's Offense, or what? "This is not a Jericho-exclusive problem. Kayfabe is dead and you're evaluating Jericho under a different set of rules from everyone else." Because that's why I compared Jericho's matches to other workers from the same period, then? You seem to have good intentions, but I get the idea you're not paying full attention to my arguements. "Ok, just so I understand where you're coming from, what should Jericho have done *differently* in that match if he was trying to get the crowd to gasp in horror every time he even looked at Kane's knee?" Using an injury as a way to swing the tides into his favor is always a good way to get it over, and if he wanted to convey a true visciousness about his work, he should have been more viscious in how he worked it. Jericho's problems with offense were made even more glaring by the fact that Kane's size and bumping ability negates a lot of possible forms of attack, making Jericho seem even more limited. A good worker would be able to overcome a limited opponent more effectively than he did. "No, but that's more of a result of booking undercutting Jericho's credibility than it is his faults as a worker. If HHH worked the exact same match, sequence for sequence, the heat would have been even greater because he has more credibility than Jericho because he backs up his words with actions." It's partly the booker's fault for never building up Jericho but it's also Jericho's fault for being unable to make himself seem like a threat. Jericho's offense has always kept him from appearing dangerous against chodes like Kane and Big Show. But you're right, the WWE has always been against pushing small guys. "Working the leg to kill time? Reminds me of how the NJ juniors work the mat for the first 10-15 minutes of every match to "kill time". Or how the All Japan matches everyone raves about have headlocks in the first five minutes that don't play into the finish. Once again, I feel like you're evaluating Jericho under a different set of criteria." Funny, because it seemed to me that 90% of the comparisons I made dealt with WWE matches. The only NJ Junior match I mentioned was Benoit/Jericho, which didn't have the meaningless leg work from either man. I never brought up All Japan once, and why should I, considering I've seen very litle? You seem to be trying to stereotype me as a puroresu elitist, which I've been trying to stay away from. Several times I made match-to-match comparisons stating why Jericho's work was not as good as his peers _in the WWE_. Your point about NJ Juniors is perfectly valid, but what place does it have in this discussion? "Rock v Hogan was indeed a smart match, but Rock and Hogan didn't work a 12-minute TV match either." They still had a match. "And there definitely wasn't an agent booking the match move-for-move two weeks in advance. Yes, it was a smart match, but if you put Rock out there against Hogan in a 12-minute TV match, it would be worse than Hogan v Jericho, and I think even Rock would admit that, since he's said openly that he thinks Jericho is the best worker in the company." I don't see why Rock couldn't have done what Jericho did in his match with Hogan if it didn't have any pre-planning. Rock's never had any problem bumping for evers. He gets goofy with his overselling sometimes, but so then so does Jericho. "Working a better match inside limitations than someone else working a match inside the same limitations makes the person who worked the better match a better worker. At least on that given night." Not neccesarily. Some workers play better with a certain type of foil for them than others who might be considered "better." In either case, I don't think Jericho did anything in his match with Hogan that should be considered out of the ordinary for him, or anyone else. I don't think it's a good arguement for Jericho as a good worker. "Benoit is a great worker, but he works primarily with other great workers. Jericho doesn't have that luxury. And I'd have to say the Rock v Jericho No Mercy match was far better than any Benoit v Rock match." Benoit works primarily with other great workers? Here's a guy who had drawn out feuds with MENG and KEVIN SULLIVAN. He's far from privaleged when it comes to great opponents, especially since coming to the states. And Benoit/Rock at Fully Loaded was the best Rock match I've seen. It wasn't the most heated, the most anticipated, or even a rare performance for either men, but it saw Benoit take Rock's possitives (his good offense and ability to rally the crowd) and parlayed that into a very good match by working Rock over to make the crowd that much more behind him and then letting him fire off his offense at the best moments. Rock and Jericho's matches (in the begining) had tons of heat thanks to their very well-organized feud, but their work didn't reach the levle that Benoit's did. "Need I remind anyone of the Benoit v Meng series?" Weren't you just saying Benoit always got the good workers? Why did you bring this up? I can't remember a match Meng ever had that I enjoyed, so I don't see how you can use this as an arguement against Benoit. "The Royal Rumble ladder match and the Backlash 2000 match were both far from forgettable." The Royal Rumble match was enjoyable, but only for what it was: a total spot-fest. Both guys bumped like maniacs but there was never any point when one guy seemed in control of the match. They brought some great spots, but in the grand scheme of things, that's all they were. As for the Backlash match, Feh. Repetative work the didn't lead anywhere, from both guys. "I think you should watch No Mercy 2001 and Vengeance 2001 again." Why? So I can count the numer of times they go into familiarity spots? Good heat doesn't make a good match. "Disagreed. Remember the match where Jericho won the title and had it taken away from him? Well-paced, energetic and good role playing from both made for quite the enjoyable TV match. They didn't meet again until spring of 2001 on Smackdown in a pretty awesome little 8-minute match that saw Jericho come within an eyelash of beating HHH." Haven't seen any of this stuff since it happened, so my memory isn't strong on them. "And Fully Loaded wasn't great because of the plunder or the blood, it was great because of the selling Jericho was doing when he was daring HHH to punch him again. That was among the best babyface selling I've seen in years." Jericho's selling, moment by moment, was perfectly fine, but the way they got there wasn't anything special. The usual garbage spots were in full affect, just like they were for the HIAC they had this year. Mostly just "you hit me, I hit you" brawling and some prop shots scattered in. "You mean the match where Austin allowed him to get ZERO offense. The extended TBS studio squash?" Yep, that's the one. Rob can sell when he wants, I've found, and Austin was able to get the crowd rallied behind perfectly. Just because it wasn't one of Rob's long, rambling ECW brawls doesn't mean it wasn't worth watching. It got me behind Rob, and it got me to buy Austin as the dominant champion. That's more than any other RVD match has ever done for me. "Rob's a limited worker too, granted, and Jericho got more out of him than either Benoit or Guerrero could in 2002." How so? Eddy's ladder match this year was just as meandering and spotty as the Jericho/RVD match. The Benoit matches didn't have garbage to cover up for Rob's work, so obviously they came off worse. If Benoit had filled the Jerry Lynn role, he would have been able to do it just as effectively as the others. "Agreed, but surely you can't argue the difference in the product between 1999 and 2000." Yeah, much less the Austin/Vince show and more the Rock/Trips show. Don't know about the work being so different, though. "No it doesn't. But the fact that he busted out new submission stuff he had never done before at Judgment Day 2000 shows that he's a good worker." What match was this? My memory of 2000 is fading. "Selling his ass of for Benoit and being the guy who ended up getting Benoit ready for the world title picture (when it should have been the other way around) shows that he's a good worker. Making well-timed comebacks shows that he's a good worker." Everyone was selling their ass for Benoit, as I recall. Vs. Jericho was his main feud, but being a wipping boy for Benoit isn't exactly a new role for him. He worked really hard with Benoit and all, but I still don't think that makes him a great worker. Mike Enos worked hard with Benoit too, and I'm not poised to call him a great wrestler either. "I wasn't referring to the high spots. I was referring to the stiffness of the matches with Benoit." And who did that stiffness come from? For all the complaining that Jericho was "too stiff" with his offense, I can't remember him being very physical at all. "I don't understand how you can't see the difference between Jericho's style of low-key aerial offense and dramatic selling compared to the spotfestivity of RVD, Jeff Hardy and Sabu. You don't see Jericho doing triple reverse moonsaults or going through tables." RVD's selling is dramatic. His offense is low-key. Jericho takes plenty of crazy bumps. Even if Jericho weren't using the same offense, the way he uses that offense and how he builds a match isn't anything special. Hell, I would take '94 Sabu on a good day above Mr. Jericho. "Actually, he's comparable to Brian Pillman in the early 90s." Haven't seen much of that work from Pillman, so I wouldn't know. "Actually it does. How can anyone draw a crowd into a match without charisma?" Just because fans take to someone doesn't make them a good worker. I'm almost afraid to bring this up, in fear of starting an equally bothersome arguement, but the Rock isn't a great worker, at all, and he's got more than enough fan support. Jericho's popularity comes from his promos, not his wrestling. "By average, I'm assuming you mean what everyone else is doing on RAW. In that case, he's well above average. Once again, I think you're judging Jericho by an unfair standard." No one is over on Raw, save Bookdust (for now) and Steiner (for now). It's hard to make things more simple and even than that. "I beg to differ and I think it's obvious to anyone who watches RAW that while he's not at his peak anymore, he's still very over." Nah, his music doesn't get much of a pop at all. He got some good heat for his promo with Michaels last week, but again, he's great at working the microphone. I know that the problems Jericho has with getting heat are more the booker's fault than his, but still, I think calling him over right now is far-fetched. "Booker T. deffinately. Better offense, timing, and ring presence. He's not great, but he can play a more effective role than Jericho in terms of rallying a crowd these days, for sure." "Booker's offense consists entirely of scissor kicks." *nod* It's unique without being indyish. Works for me. "I've never seen the fans rally when he's fighting his way out of a reverse chinlock." I have. The BookDust matches pretty much since they turned face a few months ago have had tons of heat, many times when Booker was in the ring. "I thought charisma didn't make a good worker." Charisma alone is the more correct phrase. Booker isn't really a promo guy, but his in-ring charisma is fine. "And while I love Booker and think he's a fun character, I know better than to call him a better worker than Chris Jericho." Well, what can you do. Comparing the BookDust/Double Chris's matches with the BookDust/UnAmericans matches, I'd say they had about the same heat, while matches like Double Chris's/Dudleyz had next to none. Personally, I think it's due to the fans connecting with Booker's character more than they do with Jericho's.
Guest TheyCallMeMark Posted December 24, 2002 Report Posted December 24, 2002 I don't remember those matches being any better or worse than what Kurt, HHH, and even Rikishi did with Rock. As far as Rock matches go, I'll take the stuff Austin and Benoit did with him over the other stuff. Are you going to honestly tell me Jericho isn't better than Angle, HHH and Rikishi? I realize you're alot more knowledgable about wrestling than I am, but I think saying that Jericho isn't any better than those three is ignorant, honestly. Sure, he's not a "SUPER AMAZING ***** WORKER WHO IS GREAT AND GOD AND CHRIS BENOIT" but he's still well above Angle, HHH and Rikishi. Angle has exactly one part he knows how to play, and two people (Beniot, Austin) have ever got him to break the pattern (Jericho can put on a variety of matches with lesser opponents). HHH was a medicore worker at best with little variety and Rikishi, you have to be kidding me. There is a big freaking spread between Jericho's matches against Rock (which I would consider worth watching more than once) and the little Rikishi tiff. Working the leg to kill time? Reminds me of how the NJ juniors work the mat for the first 10-15 minutes of every match to "kill time". Or how the All Japan matches everyone raves about have headlocks in the first five minutes that don't play into the finish. Once again, I feel like you're evaluating Jericho under a different set of criteria I don't recall him saying that he loved it when they rolled around on the mat aimlessly. Wait until he says something before you critique what he thinks about it.
Guest RickyChosyu Posted December 24, 2002 Report Posted December 24, 2002 Y'know, this is a pretty good point. Of the NJ Junior stuff, I've seen, only a few matches actually go somewhere from all the mat work. The fact that its a part of every match means that it can sometimes get criminally boring. All japan has the same problem but not to such a great extent. I guess I just don't see the difference between pointless time-killing limb work and super-duper works on a level of soul rejuvenation limb work. Except when Shinjiro Ohtani does it. Then its just pure fun fun fun. Booker T better than Jericho? No...just....No. I can only take so many sidekicks and chinlocks before falling into oblivion. Jericho's offense is hardly stellar, but at least there's some variety. And Jericho's WWE matches with Benoit were uber-kewl, mostly because both men were playing their defined roles really well. The Jericho-Rock matches also ruled in many ways. Jericho does dog it way too much though. And yet somehow, I'll never truly abandon my Jerichohol, no matter how boring his storylines get. Yeah, that's the problem with NJ juniors. Meaningless Junior Matwork tends to find it's way into many matches that would have actually been better without it. Agreed on Ohtani being king dick making it fun, too. Personally, I think Liger does a pretty fantastic job in that role also. I'd say good limb work happens when it factors into the finish and takes the match somewhere. I haven't seen the stuff that everyone points to as being The Matwork That Makes All Other Matwork Vapid and Borring, but I'm hoping to eventually. As for Booker's offense, I don't get the complaint here. It's explosive, usually not sloppy, unique, and he can hit it on just about anyone. What more can you really ask for in a WWE worker? It's not deep, but it works. What varryation does Jericho have? His Triple Powerbomb doesn't work unless he's with the Cruiserweights, and even then it looks a bit contrived. The Spring Board Dropkick usually looked nice but he doesn't do that much anymore, and his suplexes are often sloppy. He has an OK Enzuguiri. The Lionsault usually looks weak, and the Walls is usually just a half-crab unless he's got someone really flimsy in there. Mostly these days, it's choke, choke, punch, ect. As for the Jericho/Rock and Jericho/Benoit stuff, see above. I know I probably sound enough like a broken record as it is.
Guest RickyChosyu Posted December 24, 2002 Report Posted December 24, 2002 Since I'm now bombarind this thread with posts.... "Are you going to honestly tell me Jericho isn't better than Angle, HHH and Rikishi?" Maybe I didn't explain this as clearly as I should have. I meant the way Jericho worked with Rock wasn't any different from the way Angle, HHH and Rikishi did. If I were comparing him to those three, I would put him behind Angle and ahead of HHH and Rikishi, but that's not what I was trying to get across. I'm just saying that Jericho's matches with Rock didn't seem any better or worse than what Rocky did with other guys around the same time. "I realize you're alot more knowledgable about wrestling than I am, but I think saying that Jericho isn't any better than those three is ignorant, honestly." I don't think I'm that knowledgable. I'm firm about my opinions and I like paying attention to what I see in matches, but I'm no Super Genius when it comes to this stuff. "Angle has exactly one part he knows how to play, and two people (Beniot, Austin) have ever got him to break the pattern (Jericho can put on a variety of matches with lesser opponents)." Angle can be one-dimensional, but how is Jericho any better? Jericho usually seems to work the same match most of the time. "HHH was a medicore worker at best with little variety and Rikishi, you have to be kidding me. There is a big freaking spread between Jericho's matches against Rock (which I would consider worth watching more than once) and the little Rikishi tiff." Eh, the Rikishi match had quite a bit of heat, as I remember. I'm not trying to call either Rikishi or HHH better than Jericho, but I think the way they played along with Rock is at least similar to the way Jericho did.
Guest bob_barron Posted December 24, 2002 Report Posted December 24, 2002 Ricky: The JD match L4W was referring to was the submission match Y2J and Benoit had. Benoit choked him out with the crossface
Guest RickyChosyu Posted December 24, 2002 Report Posted December 24, 2002 Ah, that one. Shows how memorable I thought it was.
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now