Guest bps "The Truth" 21 Report post Posted March 8, 2002 Look at the progression of events: Raw (8 days after Vengeance) RVD vs. Jericho with Flair as Ref...(RVD wins by DQ...crowd thinks he's won title with figure 4...goes apeshit) Smackdown (smae week) RVD attacks Jericho during promo Next Raw (pretaped) RVD looking for Jericho...finds Storm...beats Jericho's "Messenger". Smackdown (right before January 7) Jericho and Rvd face off in tag match...Announcers play up their "unfinished business" January 7th...RVD curtain jerks against Test...HHH returns Smackdown right after: Rock beats Booker T in a #1 contenders match for Royal Rumble...even though RVD was in the middle of a feud...and holds multiple victories over him (Unforgiven, Raw, tag match). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest teke184 Report post Posted March 8, 2002 I was there live in Lafayette when it appeared RVD won the title and the crowd went BATSHIT until the DQ was announced. I'd think THAT reaction alone would have been enough to get RVD a match against Jericho at Rumble 2002. Considering that the Christmas/NewYears break came shortly after that match, the feud was quietly killed through Jericho saying "You had your chance and you blew it." on the Smackdown after their match and never being mentioned again on TV. I'm not going to go into WHY that feud was killed, but it was VERY over and would have been a hot match at the Rumble. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest bps "The Truth" 21 Report post Posted March 8, 2002 It would have been a hot match...and it would have gone a long way to cementing RVD as a star. Unfortunately they...um...went another way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest teke184 Report post Posted March 8, 2002 Another thing an RVD-Jericho match would have done is have The Rock enter the Royal Rumble and compete against Austin and HHH, thereby having the three biggest WWF names of the past 4 years wrestle in one match. It would also have saved the WWF the embarassment of having The Rock disappear for long periods of time to do reshoots on Scorpion King when he was supposed to be contending for the WWF title. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RetroRob215 Report post Posted March 8, 2002 I also think the ratings are stupid. I'm sure people don't only change the channel because Billy & Chuck come on. People may watch other TV shows at that time, RVD's numbers may be low since he has been feuding with Goldust. There are too many variables to be considered. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Kahran Ramsus Report post Posted March 8, 2002 "The pop when the crowd thought that RVD had won the belts was tremendous. And the next show on Smackdown...RVD got one of his loudest pops when he came out to interrupt Jericho's promo. The crowd was eating it up. Compare that to HHH interrupting Jericho after the Rumble to a much smaller reaction. AND THAT'S MAIN EVENTING WRESTLEMANIA!" I actually felt that the pop for RVD having beaten Jericho, may have been louder than HHH's return. At least it came over that way on tv. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Tony149 Report post Posted March 8, 2002 RVD winning his match with Jericho did get a bigger pop than HHH's return. HHH got a big pop, then it started to die as he kept milking it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest bps "The Truth" 21 Report post Posted March 8, 2002 It's true. That's what HHH's enterance is...milking it. In truth...RVD's pop after that match was probably second only to the Rock and Austin confrontation... ...funny how people defended that segment to the death but just brush off RVD as flippy flop bullshit that is only over with "ECW mutants". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Kahran Ramsus Report post Posted March 8, 2002 "...funny how people defended that segment to the death but just brush off RVD as flippy flop bullshit that is only over with "ECW mutants". " Well, I was/am one of those people. RVD is over yes. But I do not see him being able to sustain his heat after a big title run at the top of the promotion. I liken it to something like what happened with Warrior & Goldberg, as opposed to Hogan & Austin. Plus, in the main events, RVD would have to wrestle longer, less hardcore style matches, and that could hurt him in the long run. In other words, I think it was a good decision to keep the title on Jericho, but yes I agree that the pop was huge and the crowd certainly wanted RVD to win the title. And yes, I am aware that my thinking seems to be similar to that of Verne Gagne's when he refused to put Hogan over Bockwinkel. I could be wrong, but the WWF isn't in that bad of shape (ratings wise) that they need to take the risk. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest teke184 Report post Posted March 8, 2002 At the time I was watching the match, I wanted RVD to win the title in order to legitimize himself much like Foley did in his feud with The Rock in 1998-99. When he lost, I thought that the next best thing would be for RVD to have a good, close match at Royal Rumble 2002 to get some practice at main-eventing a WWF PPV (No Mercy doesn't really count, as the WWF pussified themselves by going with a non-sensical Triple Threat match instead of a straight Austin-Angle or Austin-RVD match). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest bps "The Truth" 21 Report post Posted March 8, 2002 I never would have booked him to win the title...but HE ENDED UP CURTAIN JERKING AGAINST TEST! I've stated it before...and here it goes again: RVD is a freak of nature. He became insanely popular...out of an angle that nearly crippled everyone. I don't know if he can be a top guy...or another Rock or Austin...but it certainly seems worth the WWF's while to find out. Look how much effort they spend on feuds and angles and promo's just to get people as over as RVD already is. He doesn't really fit into the classical discriptions of anyone...so who knows how far the RVD story could go? Perhaps they've decided to give him the slow push to the top...like they did with Bret Hart and Shawn Micheals...Perhaps they don't like him because they didn't create him. MAybe it's both. But a funny thing is happening while the WWF is trying to decide what to do with him...he's getting better. He's adapting to the WWF style...learning his way around the ring...and putting on good matches with people like Goldust. And his promos have certainly improved (when he gets the time). He may end up being something the WWF wants to push after all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Kahran Ramsus Report post Posted March 9, 2002 "I never would have booked him to win the title...but HE ENDED UP CURTAIN JERKING AGAINST TEST!" I'm surprised that Test was curtain jerking that night. Usually he is getting a title shot. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Vanilla Midget Report post Posted March 9, 2002 thats right, the wwf probably considered it a promotion for rvd to be fighting 'the next big thing' test... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest humongous2002 Report post Posted March 9, 2002 RVD is way over for a guy that wasn't given any hype when he first joined the WWF. If he's given the opportunity to carry the ball he might be the next Austin or Hogan to take the WWF to a new era, but will never find out if they don't give him a chance. Hopefully by next year he'll be main eventing Wrestlemania with either Benoit, Angle or Austin(him passing the torch) for the WWf title. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Brian Report post Posted March 9, 2002 "I was there live in Lafayette when it appeared RVD won the title and the crowd went BATSHIT until the DQ was announced. I'd think THAT reaction alone would have been enough to get RVD a match against Jericho at Rumble 2002." Didn't work for Jericho, shouldn't be the same for RVD. I hate to use this standard but it's the one the WWF goes by when it comes to newly acquired talent from other companies. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest converge241 Report post Posted March 9, 2002 RVD - Jericho may have been a good main for the rumble but they needed to do those Rock and Austin matches to relaly build up Jericho into WrestleMania he needed to beat the top 2 faces back to back in one on one matches again to convince people that he may win against the other big face HHH. You cant have the general public thinking that HHH will win no problem. A ppv RVD match would have done nothing to accomplish said illusion. I think Van Dam would experience that burnout the way Warrior and Sting did when they won the world title. There is such a thing as giving the fans what they want accompanied by a slow build. Bret and Shawn got that succesful slow push without turning any fans off. if they gave it to Rob now sure the pop would be good, but what do you do for heel opponents who the fans take seriously for ob to have feuds over? Taker maybe cause they have that respect issue and maybe Jericho rematches? I dont think Jericho can help elevate face status in his heel character yet. the NWO or anybody else? Rob just says "hey whatever if you dont like me cause im cool so ill fight you". Wont draw fans to the shows and PPVs. As far as those character ratings go, i wouldnt put much stock in them. they are interesting, but WWF characters and stories have been all over the place as of late. I had more faith in the older ones the Observer used to do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Kahran Ramsus Report post Posted March 9, 2002 "You cant have the general public thinking that HHH will win no problem." Ummm...hello? They think that now. Only the smarks are picking Jericho to win. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest converge241 Report post Posted March 9, 2002 I was talking about the reason behind it. Just because something didnt work out does not change the intent. In the standard "good guy-bad guy" confrontation, you have to give some reason to think that the heel has a chance, beating 2 of the 3 top faces heading into WM is better than beating RVD or whoever else. I never said that any people think jericho is going to win, just saying that they have to try and do the best that they can to create the illusion that jericho has a chance. they havent done a great job of it but they were following some standard samples from booking 101. they needed to do more. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Kahran Ramsus Report post Posted March 9, 2002 You can easily do that on RAW or at No Way Out. I don't like RVD, but the reason I like him in the WWF title match at the Rumble is that you get Rock in the Rumble match. They needed Jericho to get some clean wins (by a heel's standard) in order to build him up for Mania. Having him look a fool against guys like Austin & Rock doesn't work. Even if Jericho had just beat upper mid-carders like RVD & Edge, it would have made sense if they were building up for a successful defense at Mania. You really only need to have him beat the top guys if he is going to job at Mania. That way HHH beating him is an actual accomplishment. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest converge241 Report post Posted March 9, 2002 yeah I see your point Kahran thanks. it seems to me like two sides of the same coin. I was thinking of the heel beats faces in shady ways so he'll have to win cheap at WM (The Flair method). But what you said makes sense too, If jericho won clean then HHH beats him he gets those wins by default for the accomplishment. I agree. Let me just state too, cause I didnt before, that I would have liked to see some kind of blowoff match between RVD and Jericho for the undisputed title, being fans of both Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Loss4Words Report post Posted March 11, 2002 Well, the crowds tend to pop big for title changes, especially world title changes. And you can't trust Smackdown pops at all. RVD is definitely very over, but I think it's funny that everyone has forgotten that the exact same thing happened to Chris Jericho almost exactly one year to the date earlier. He was tentatively scheduled to challenge Kurt Angle in the title match at the Royal Rumble, but HHH came back early from an injury and they changed the match. It could certainly be argued that this was a political move, although we don't know for sure. But Jericho is doing just fine now and RVD hasn't gone through nearly all the political bullshit Jericho had to go through to get to the top. He's probably the one wrestler in WWF history who you could honestly say there was a conspiracy against at one point to make sure he never made it as a top guy. Of course, it didn't work since Jericho's talent made it impossible not to push him, but you get the point. Look at April of 2000 for Chrissakes. Jericho defeats HHH and wins the title before the reverse decision to one of the biggest babyface pops I've ever heard. In the following weeks between Backlash and Judgment Day, Jericho stays in the thick of things and starts getting even bigger pops than the Rock, especially when Vince did a run-in on one of his matches (forget which one) and he cold-cocked him. Does anyone else remember that? Then the Undertaker came back and Jericho went spiraling back down to the midcard. Jericho, by the way, was managing to maintain his heat despite jobbing on almost every show to almost everyone on the roster. He went the entire stretch from Backlash to Summerslam (5 PPVs) without getting one win, which would have killed anyone else's career. Then he gets put in a program with X-Pac and *still* keeps his heat. Then he's made to look like a fool in his feud with Kane and even starts blowing spots on almost a weekly basis and *still* maintains his heat. Then in 2001, he seemed on the right track although the Regal feud (which lasted the same amount of time as Regal's feud with Edge) took a little too much time, but Jericho was still madly over, even though his heat had definitely taken a beating from the previous Spring. When he pinned Austin in that tag match, people were jumping up and down and screaming. So many obstacles were thrown at the guy, from the blown spots (which are his own fault), to the constant TV and PPV jobs to the writers not giving him angles to HHH making him his bitch to feuding with the head writer in a war of words for over a year and he still didn't turn into a joke. He started to, but his megapush came at exactly the right time. What's my point? I guess I'm not entirely sure, but I'll just say that those who think RVD is being held down should remember two things: 1. He's being FAR more pushed than Jericho was in the midcard. 2. Making sure his heat isn't dependent on him winning every single match is a good thing. They need to make sure his character is durable. That's all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest bps "The Truth" 21 Report post Posted March 11, 2002 Well...Jericho did get a the IC title 4 months after joining the WWF. I know that RVD Main Evented a ppv...but the only reason for that is that he was the only part of the alliance that was over. It wasn't done to push him...which is obvious by the fact that he was depushed right after the Alliance angle ended...and HHH returned. I don't know how he's being FAR more pushed than Jericho...when Jericho won the belt RVD is chasing almost immediatly. And as for ppv losing streaks: RVD had a 4 ppv streak (that ended when he beat freaking Goldust, which is worse than wrestling X-Pac anyday) And that streak included that 2 minute rumble time that got some of the loudest heat I've ever heard for his quick elimination. The other difference is that ratings were good when Jericho got to the WWF...and when ratings are good elavation isn't a WWF consideration. If you look at the ratings today...maybe bringing in the NWO wasn't the answer...maybe elavation was. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest humongous2002 Report post Posted March 11, 2002 Personally I don't think Jericho is being push to the top in the WWF due to the fact that he hasn't won a match with a clean pin and then on top of that Stephanie is making him look like a punk by looking like her servant. Winning those 2 titles doesn't mean shit if Y2J is being depicted like a weak cowardly champion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
