Was there one moment this year that you think was

[Guest HartFan86]

This is my own opinion.

 

I was watching some Raws from eariler this year and I think I found the one moment that made the WWF/E's product start to suck...really bad. February 18, 2002. Approximately 10:20-10:30 PM, EST.

 

Hulk Hogan hitting the Rock with a semi after one of the best face to face confrontations/nWo beatdowns ever.

 

I don't know what made me think this, but for some reason it seems like everything went slowly downhill from there.

 

So the question.....do you think there was one moment this year that started the product to diminsh...and if so, what was it?

[ChrisMWaters 0]

3 things:

 

1)HHH's return.

 

2)nWo Semi Incident.

 

3)Molly betraying Hurricane.

[Guest Angle-plex]

(insert obvious Triple H returning joke here)

 

I don't think there was one moment. They started off with a small amount of shit, and just kept adding more and more.

[Guest Brian]

It's been going downhill since they blew the love triangle; even before that at Fully Loaded when they blew three opportunities to eelvate guys.

[Guest HartFan86]

It's been going downhill since they blew the love triangle; even before that at Fully Loaded when they blew three opportunities to eelvate guys.

That's actually a really good point....if you think about it, people say that the beginning of the end was the end of the InVasion angle. People say the end was when WCW went out of business. People say the end was the Love Triangle, but Fully Loaded was sort of the beginning of the whole thing, as you mentioned. Sure, the WWF bounced back a tad in early 2001 with Mania and of course the memorable segment/match every once in a while, but it's really been going longer than just this year.

 

Man, Brian just made me do some thinking!

[Guest y2jailbait]

the entire clusterfuck known as the "Invasion" angle. That was supposed to be still going on as we speak, that was the end of long term planning and perhaps the beginning of McMahon's hot shot booking style that we see so often today.

[Guest William E]

What about the kiss my ass club?

[Guest BoboBrazil]

At this time last year people were saying the same thing as they were saying now. The product has truly been in the shitter since Wrestlemania 17 when Austin turned heel, then the next night HHH was primed for a face turn and he stayed heel and teamed with Austin. They never recovered from that. The product first started going down in Summer 2000 when Steph was supposed to go with Angle, but HHH wouldn't agree to it, because it would make him look bad. This was one of early signs of HHH abusing his power of dating Stephanie.

[Guest MaxPower27]

Fully Loaded 2000 was a real downer, for reasons that Brian has already touched on.

 

The Love Triangle didn't help anything, neither did the InVasion thingy.

 

This year's downer for me was Austin v. Eddy having to be cancelled due to Austin walking out. I was really looking forward to that angle and subsequent match, and was disappointed. HHH's return wasn't that bad, as I didn't watch it, so I don't even remember what happened.

[Guest AndrewTS]

I started a topic about when this started earlier myself--and the general consensus was that it was after Wrestlemania X8, with the Austin heel turn which started us down this downward spiral of utter crap, with things getting progressively worse, with a few bright spots during the Alliance days.

[Guest papacita]

I still say Steph should've turned on Hunter and Angle for Jericho at SummerSlam then lead into a Triple Threat #1 Contenders match at Unforgiven, where Jericho wins and goes on to beat the Rock at No Mercy then HHH at Survivor Series. Steph going with Angle would've been too predictable.

 

ANYWAY...WWF's been steadily pissing me off since late 99 (with that boring ass McMahon/HHH feud that ate up 90% of the airtime), but I'd say things really started to go south after they killed the Alliance. It seemed to me like they were intent on dropping the storyline, but didn't make any long-term plans for after Survivor Series, and the product suffered as a result. I'd say most of their problems can be traced to a lack of long-term planning.

[Guest razazteca]

the nWo bringing the CANCER to Raw

 

Hogan not getting over as a heel, damn Canadians had to cheer for him and bring back the damn Hollywood Hulk Hogan International Tribute Title to the WWF.

 

Then Hunter Hurst Helmsly getting the belt handed to him on Raw by Bischoff even though Brock was the Undisputed WWE champ.

 

Then HBK SHawn MicHaels winning the belt from Hunter and of course giving it back on his 2nd defense.

[Guest Mole]

I'd have to agree that WWE started going downhill right after the love-triangle. Triple-Juice just COULDN'T loose to Angle, thus giving Steph over to Angle. When Triple-Juice won, I was just like, huh, that was a waste of such a great angle.

 

At the same time, I think WWE started going down hill after Triple-Juice got injured. They were onto something with Benoit/Jericho vs SCSA/Triple-Juice feud. Then Triple-Juice got injured, and that ruined the whole thing. The InVasion angle would of been COMPLETLY different if Trips was around.

 

Then, the InVasion angle also was a down fall for the WWE. That was just booked all wrong, and it made WCW folk just look like shit. Only if I could of booked that...

 

The only thing that really saved 2001 was good old wrestling. The storylines were shit, but the wrestling was great. 2001 would of sucked just as much as 2002, but the wrestling was great all year long.

[Guest razazteca]

what killed the Invasion angle, happened at the beginning with Undertaker not wanting to lose to DDP or even wrestle a full match. Then of course there is the whole Chuck Palumbo deal as tag team champ losing to Undertaker & Kane or APA.

 

The whole ideal that everybody from WCW or ECW were all heels, was one of the most insane concepts ever. How they made the most over face Booker T and made him into a heel fighting Austin in a supermarket and church was just wrong.

 

then in the years 2000-2002 [/Connan echo] Kane getting a push after push after push never really changing other than getting an even more gay looking costume and mask. The humor to badass jerk heel changed week to week never having a constant direction and WTF when is he going to lose the mask?

[Guest Mad Dog]

You can pretty much trace the downfall of the product back to the day Steph was handed the book.

 

That's about when the Love Triangle got screwed up and Trips was the mastermind behind Austin getting hit instead of making a new badass heel in Rikishi.

 

The thing to remember is the symptoms are usually there for quite awhile before things get really bad.

[Guest BillyTheStud]

When the Champion had to clean up dog shit.

[Guest cabbageboy]

No, Steph got the book a bit after that stuff. I think the first PPV she booked was Survivor Series 2000, which was mediocre at best. The thing I found so retarded about that show was the alleged main event with HHH/Austin. This is the "HHH falls from the crane inside a car" show. Now, Austin beats his ass the ENTIRE match, drops him from a crane, yet doesn't even think of actually PINNING HIM? That was just retarded. I mean, if they are going to have HHH dropped and damn near killed I'd think he could have had his shoulders pinned for a 3 count beforehand.

 

I will go back further than Fully Loaded 2000 to the moment things got fucked up. It was WM 2000. When HHH won the main event despite any and all logic dictating he should job to SOMEBODY, I damn near quit watching wrestling. I don't think the WWF ever really recovered from that horrible decision.

[Guest HartFan86]

Yeah, watching the ending to the Mania 2000 match still has me shell-shocked at times.

 

Foley/Rock should of gone over.

[Guest tpww7]

The whole HHH/Jericho/Steph angle. And HHH winning the belt at WM.

[Guest godthedog]

the beginning of total shittiness in the product is obvious to me: the arrival of the new world older. some say it was triple h's arrival, but trips didn't have this uncanny ability to make the entire quality of the product go spiraling down (he wouldn't gain that ability for another month or two). from the instant the new world older came, everybody (except possibly angle) started dogging it. it was totally obvious at no way out that austin had just given up & didn't care at all, and jericho didn't do much better. i have no doubt that if vince hadn't signed hall, hogan & nash, they wouldn't be in as deep a hole as they are now.

 

as much as i hate to say it, the beginning of overall mediocrity seems to be the austin heel turn. after he turned heel, the quality of the ppv's instantly went WAY down, as did the quality of the free tv (which was temporarily alleviated by the godlike antics of chris benoit). the two-man power trip made for AWFUL television, & this was before the invasion even started. (remember the raw episode that basically had ross intimidated for 2 hours in a room while he watched footage of the heel turn?) i guess one could argue steph's taking over as the turning point, but you still have to account for 3 months of AWESOME ppv's, 3 ppv's that can hold their own against the best ones the wwf has ever put out.

[Guest Brian]

It all is traced back to Fully Loaded though. Basically, there were three spots for guys to move up on the card. Jericho had lost momentum from the phantom switch but a win would have probably catapulted him to the top. He looked strong, but so did Benoit. And Benoit lost, failing to move on him when he was getting hot. Angle, in comparison to the other two was in a match where he logically should have won; and didn't. Heck, if they would have got one of these guys over probably a lot of things would have happened differently. Angle might have not suffered as much from the end of the love triangle and lame-duck reign. Benoit or Jericho would have been better prepped for a post-WrestleMania X-8 run with Stone Cold.

 

Heck, WM 2000 wasn't that bad of a move. They squeezed out a good buy of Rock/HHH with pay-off at a later date, where WM was the one pay per view that diodn't need it. Putting it on Foley would have been a big mistake as he wasn't in shape to do so.

[Guest Nevermortal]

When Hulk Hogan could not ride his motorcycle up the ramp, and the show had to stall for the feeble old man who couldn't operate a vehicle.

[Guest bravesfan]

Heck, WM 2000 wasn't that bad of a move. They squeezed out a good buy of Rock/HHH with pay-off at a later date, where WM was the one pay per view that diodn't need it. Putting it on Foley would have been a big mistake as he wasn't in shape to do so.

 

Backlash 2000 DID kick major ass.

 

I'm not too sure as to where I would put the blame...

HHH tearing his quad in 2001? Loss of a great performer, but did elevate Benoit and Jericho

Rock/nWo semi incident? I think it was way too "over the top" to be believed, ala Survivor Serie 2000.

Wrestlemania 2000 did leave room for 3 great PPV's in the future.

 

My contender would have to be how the Invasion was booked. Was there any reason as to why the WWE didn't negoiate with Hogan, Flair, Nash and Hall earlier? Or it was a matter of money that held these 4 back until the Invasion was over?

[Guest HollywoodSpikeJenkins]

Then Triple-Juice got injured, and that ruined the whole thing. The InVasion angle would of been COMPLETLY different if Trips was around.

Yeah. Vince would of been begging for the OLD Trips to return. Kinda like we are now. Well, only in workrate.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Things started getting REALLY bad the moment the nWo showed up. It got even worse after the Austin walkout. Hogan's title reign tanked the ratings beyond repair, and the HHH show has kept it that way.

[Guest caboose]

I actually think the WWE started going downhill the second the bell rang to end Austin Vs. The Rock at WM17.

As much as I love that feud, match, payoff and both wrestlers involved. The second Austin got the title back, it signalled the end of the WWF's boom period. And the fact that Austin was at the begining and end of the boom period is the reason things went downhill. It's not all Austin's fault, but the stagnation of the product began that moment. Vince should have and he probably knows now that he should have stopped Rocky from leaving for Hallywood and put Rocky over at WM17. It would have been the offical torch passing and allowed Rocky to be the man and meaningfully put Jericho, Angle, Benoit etc over down the line.

[Guest Mole]

I actually think the WWE started going downhill the second the bell rang to end Austin Vs. The Rock at WM17.

As much as I love that feud, match, payoff and both wrestlers involved. The second Austin got the title back, it signalled the end of the WWF's boom period. And the fact that Austin was at the begining and end of the boom period is the reason things went downhill. It's not all Austin's fault, but the stagnation of the product began that moment. Vince should have and he probably knows now that he should have stopped Rocky from leaving for Hallywood and put Rocky over at WM17. It would have been the offical torch passing and allowed Rocky to be the man and meaningfully put Jericho, Angle, Benoit etc over down the line.

Yes, it would of been better if Rock won that match at WM. However, Vince would never of stopped Rock going to Hollywood. Do you know how much money Vince is making with Rock in movies? A whole bunch of it.

 

WM 2000 was a great move for the business. Triple-Juice winning WM showed that he was a true dominant heel, and it would take more than match for Rock to beat him.

[Guest caboose]

But if Vince knew then what has happened now, he would have stopped Rocky. Mainstream love comes and goes for wrestling. Draws like Rocky come once a decade. Vince just really lucked out he had two in Rocky and Austin at one time.

[Guest Mole]

But if Vince knew then what has happened now, he would have stopped Rocky. Mainstream love comes and goes for wrestling. Draws like Rocky come once a decade. Vince just really lucked out he had two in Rocky and Austin at one time.

Well, during the Hogan era, there was Macho Man. He was drawing just as much as Hogan, but Hogan didn't like that, so he had him held down.

[Guest caboose]

True.

Rocky was at one point ready to blitz Austin, Rocky just needed that win over Austin to send him over the top. Which I've read many times was originally booked for WM2000 but Austin's neck was getting really bad and Vince didn't want to lose Austin the same way he lost Michaels. Which is fair game.